The UnOrthodox: Natural, Holistic, and Wholesome... - Page 2

reefgeezer · 05/11/2016, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

Some good info here...thanks for your participation!

How about the idea for those who dose nitrates to lower phosphates of feeding more?

Dosing nitrates doesn't lower phosphates. Nitrates are dosed under very specific circumstances that are usually created when employing some very advanced methods for nutrient removal.

PIPSTER · 05/12/2016, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

Dosing nitrates doesn't lower phosphates. Nitrates are dosed under very specific circumstances that are usually created when employing some very advanced methods for nutrient removal.

I politely disagree. There's a whole thread on the subject. It can achieve zero phosphates.

Another angle is those who run algae scrubbers tend to feed more heavy to keep the algae going, and the opportunity arises to diversify the feeding, or broaden the types of food to tailor to the needs of the different types of organisms. Meanwhile, skimming more doesn't necessarily mean you can just feed more.

Many of you have heard of the bucket DSB method for lowering nitrates. Why can't this, along with a compatible reef setup, allow more fish, feeding, and therefore higher bioload capacity?

reefgeezer · 05/12/2016, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

I politely disagree. There's a whole thread on the subject. It can achieve zero phosphates.

Another angle is those who run algae scrubbers tend to feed more heavy to keep the algae going, and the opportunity arises to diversify the feeding, or broaden the types of food to tailor to the needs of the different types of organisms. Meanwhile, skimming more doesn't necessarily mean you can just feed more.

Many of you have heard of the bucket DSB method for lowering nitrates. Why can't this, along with a compatible reef setup, allow more fish, feeding, and therefore higher bioload capacity?

This is new to me. Can you explain how it works? Thanks.

PIPSTER · 05/12/2016, 08:51 AM

Here's the main thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...phates&page=27

It does have a lot of debate and doubt, but there are people who finally show up in it, if you read far enough into it, that verify it works. It's not just simply adding NO3, but is part of the bigger picture of growing the right bacteria. I think most of those guys carbon dose. There's some good discussion of the type I'm trying to generate here too, about going more biological and somewhat less mechanical.

Here's another thread, somewhat related, that goes into what I've stated previously on the zero nitrates and phosphates issue:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...wer+phosphates

PIPSTER · 05/12/2016, 10:57 AM

...

reefgeezer · 05/12/2016, 11:20 AM

[QUOTE=PIPSTER;24521395]Here's the main thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...phates&page=27[QUOTE]

I remember that thread. A lot of discussion about a fairly simple concept.

If I understand the process correctly, there are some basic premises to remember:

1. Organic compounds are created when carbon, phosphate, and nitrogen are combined.

2. Once the organic is formed, it must be exported. Carbon dosing (an advanced technique) creates an environment where more organics become available and bacteria colonize to consume it. This works as long as there is adequate phosphate & nitrogen. Skimming the bacteria once they have consumed the organic compounds is an efficient way to export the nitrate & phophate.

3. Where nitrates have been driven very low via the above process, a nitrate compound is often added to make sure that the organics are formed thus binding the phosphate for export. I agree that this is better than simply feeding more or letting the system run "dirtier". BUT... This method is not necessary where nitrates have not been driven to practically 0. In addition, no additional phosphate removal would be achieved by adding a nitrate compound if nitrates were already present at suitable levels.

So... adding nitrate compounds doesn't lower phosphates. It replaces missing nitrate so phosphates can be bound & exported by other techniques. I know there is some who theorize that the bacteria could be consumed by organisms in the tank rather than exported by a skimmer, but I'm skeptical at best.

ecotanker · 05/16/2016, 03:53 PM

It has always been my thinking to duplicate as much of nature as possible in my tank within the limitation of our system. Is this a good way to run a reef. I don't know, but that is what I like to do. I am currently running a system with a refugium that has a plenum with so sulfur prills. I also run an algae scrubber and have a lighted area for macros algaes. No of other filtration and water changes only when new corals or fishes are added.

I use sulfur in a low flow area to help to complete the nitrogen cycle by turning nitrate into nitrogen. The algae is of course for taking up ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates in various amounts. And supposedly, the algae also release sugars and amino acids, DOC, that are taken up by corals.

I work on keeping various type of pods, amphipods and mysid in my refugium to
setup as much of the food chain as possible. The tanks is feed 4 times a day, a combination of yeast powder and several kinds of coral food powders. Plus I feed the fishes 1-2 times a day.

My nitrate is around 5 ppm and my phosphate is around 0.1 ppm, even when using water straight from the tap for top off water.

Bent · 05/16/2016, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecotanker

It has always been my thinking to duplicate as much of nature as possible in my tank within the limitation of our system. Is this a good way to run a reef. I don't know, but that is what I like to do. I am currently running a system with a refugium that has a plenum with so sulfur prills. I also run an algae scrubber and have a lighted area for macros algaes. No of other filtration and water changes only when new corals or fishes are added.

I use sulfur in a low flow area to help to complete the nitrogen cycle by turning nitrate into nitrogen. The algae is of course for taking up ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates in various amounts. And supposedly, the algae also release sugars and amino acids, DOC, that are taken up by corals.

I work on keeping various type of pods, amphipods and mysid in my refugium to
setup as much of the food chain as possible. The tanks is feed 4 times a day, a combination of yeast powder and several kinds of coral food powders. Plus I feed the fishes 1-2 times a day.

My nitrate is around 5 ppm and my phosphate is around 0.1 ppm, even when using water straight from the tap for top off water.

Yeast powder?

What kind and why?

And I'm sure you meant .01 ppm

ecotanker · 05/16/2016, 09:15 PM

Yes yeast powder. Debittered, brewer yeast, to feed the corals. My goal is to eventually keep a carnation coral and came across some info of people feeding them yeast along with other things. I am just testing out how many system can handle the powder mixed.

No I meant 0.1 ppm. Higher than most people, but I used water straight from the tap, which usually has a little phosphate added.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Yeast powder?

What kind and why?

And I'm sure you meant .01 ppm

PIPSTER · 05/17/2016, 10:11 AM

If I added tap water, my entire tank would turn into a massive algae farm, not to mention everything dying from chloramine.

I was reading about DOCs and skimming, and found it interesting that some of the helpful DOCs get skimmed out, but not much of the bad ones. Makes me further wonder about what role DOCs really play, and what part of them is it that's bad?

Has anyone who uses super-saturated kalk including vinegar to raise the concentration find that the added vinegar acts somewhat as carbon dosing?

reefgeezer · 05/17/2016, 11:01 AM

I've used vinegar & kalk in a 30 gallon Brute for top-off for a long while. It's not saturated because I don't have a need for that much calcium or alkalinity at the moment.

I use a dosing pump & timer rather than a traditional ATO. I add the same amount of top-off water added daily. The mix ratio I have found that works for my tank is 1 Tsp. Kalk: 40 ml Vinegar: 1 Gallon RO/DI Water. You mileage may vary.

I do have to manually add a little plain RO/DI every once in a while to raise the sump level to normal. The average is less than a 1/2 gallon per week but varies with the humidity & temperature of the room.

I've been tempted to add a second more traditional ATO to automate this process. If I do, I'll add a little magnesium to its water. That's the one I forget about.

05/12/2016, 11:20 AM	#31
reefgeezer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 2,621	[QUOTE=PIPSTER;24521395]Here's the main thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...phates&page=27[QUOTE] I remember that thread. A lot of discussion about a fairly simple concept. If I understand the process correctly, there are some basic premises to remember: 1. Organic compounds are created when carbon, phosphate, and nitrogen are combined. 2. Once the organic is formed, it must be exported. Carbon dosing (an advanced technique) creates an environment where more organics become available and bacteria colonize to consume it. This works as long as there is adequate phosphate & nitrogen. Skimming the bacteria once they have consumed the organic compounds is an efficient way to export the nitrate & phophate. 3. Where nitrates have been driven very low via the above process, a nitrate compound is often added to make sure that the organics are formed thus binding the phosphate for export. I agree that this is better than simply feeding more or letting the system run "dirtier". BUT... This method is not necessary where nitrates have not been driven to practically 0. In addition, no additional phosphate removal would be achieved by adding a nitrate compound if nitrates were already present at suitable levels. So... adding nitrate compounds doesn't lower phosphates. It replaces missing nitrate so phosphates can be bound & exported by other techniques. I know there is some who theorize that the bacteria could be consumed by organisms in the tank rather than exported by a skimmer, but I'm skeptical at best. __________________ John, Current Tank Info: In-process, 90 Gallon SPS Reef

05/17/2016, 11:01 AM	#36
reefgeezer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 2,621	I've used vinegar & kalk in a 30 gallon Brute for top-off for a long while. It's not saturated because I don't have a need for that much calcium or alkalinity at the moment. I use a dosing pump & timer rather than a traditional ATO. I add the same amount of top-off water added daily. The mix ratio I have found that works for my tank is 1 Tsp. Kalk: 40 ml Vinegar: 1 Gallon RO/DI Water. You mileage may vary. I do have to manually add a little plain RO/DI every once in a while to raise the sump level to normal. The average is less than a 1/2 gallon per week but varies with the humidity & temperature of the room. I've been tempted to add a second more traditional ATO to automate this process. If I do, I'll add a little magnesium to its water. That's the one I forget about. __________________ John, Current Tank Info: In-process, 90 Gallon SPS Reef

05/12/2016, 08:51 AM	#29
PIPSTER Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 291	Here's the main thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...phates&page=27 It does have a lot of debate and doubt, but there are people who finally show up in it, if you read far enough into it, that verify it works. It's not just simply adding NO3, but is part of the bigger picture of growing the right bacteria. I think most of those guys carbon dose. There's some good discussion of the type I'm trying to generate here too, about going more biological and somewhat less mechanical. Here's another thread, somewhat related, that goes into what I've stated previously on the zero nitrates and phosphates issue: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...wer+phosphates

05/12/2016, 10:57 AM	#30
PIPSTER Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 291	...

05/16/2016, 03:53 PM	#32
ecotanker Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 60	It has always been my thinking to duplicate as much of nature as possible in my tank within the limitation of our system. Is this a good way to run a reef. I don't know, but that is what I like to do. I am currently running a system with a refugium that has a plenum with so sulfur prills. I also run an algae scrubber and have a lighted area for macros algaes. No of other filtration and water changes only when new corals or fishes are added. I use sulfur in a low flow area to help to complete the nitrogen cycle by turning nitrate into nitrogen. The algae is of course for taking up ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates in various amounts. And supposedly, the algae also release sugars and amino acids, DOC, that are taken up by corals. I work on keeping various type of pods, amphipods and mysid in my refugium to setup as much of the food chain as possible. The tanks is feed 4 times a day, a combination of yeast powder and several kinds of coral food powders. Plus I feed the fishes 1-2 times a day. My nitrate is around 5 ppm and my phosphate is around 0.1 ppm, even when using water straight from the tap for top off water.

05/17/2016, 10:11 AM	#35
PIPSTER Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 291	If I added tap water, my entire tank would turn into a massive algae farm, not to mention everything dying from chloramine. I was reading about DOCs and skimming, and found it interesting that some of the helpful DOCs get skimmed out, but not much of the bad ones. Makes me further wonder about what role DOCs really play, and what part of them is it that's bad? Has anyone who uses super-saturated kalk including vinegar to raise the concentration find that the added vinegar acts somewhat as carbon dosing?