New tank - FW to SW questions

Xxxtremewv · 05/16/2016, 12:44 PM

Hey everyone, just had a couple questions if anyone has time
So a couple months back i started a 70g tank that was going to be cichlids. The tank was completely cycled via fishless and i went to the lfs to look around yesterday and was so amazed at some of his reef displays i could help it. So i decided if i wanted it now would be the time before i got much further along. This tank will be reef + livefish. On a few tips from him, i came home, siphoned all water into two big trash tubs, added the salt and changed the substrate to a bag of live sand and bought 80 lb of already cured live rock and put in. Now here brings in my questions - i picked up a little from the LfS guy but still have a couple i want some sofferent opinions on

Cycling - he told me since the water was already cycled to just add the salt and then the live rock would take care of it in a week or so. Do i need to add anything but the stability he recommended? Or will this really just take care of itself? I wasnt sure on how the benefictial bacteria differ from fw to sw. I got the specific grav in this water at .22

Also, i had a fluvall 406 on this tank, he said that will be just fine to keep using. Everyone agree? I also added a jebao wp25 wavemaker to move the water around.
Any other suggestions and advice about what i need to do with equipment and water quality starting this out? I havent found a lot of good info on the bacteria and how cycles would work in this instance.
For lighting i will be ordering a couple AI prime LEDs i am thinking this week

Thank you very much in advance, any help is much appreciated!!!

lafanblue · 05/16/2016, 01:11 PM

Not an expert but pretty sure that canister filter is not going to cut it. I have read several posts here were people don't suggest using them... but there are always two sides.

Can't answer the cycle question completely... with all new rock and sand I would say your going to cycle again.

dweber618 · 05/16/2016, 01:16 PM

I ran a simple 36 gallon tank with fish and rock using a hang on back filter, single powerhead, and no skimmer. I upgraded after only a few months though - so not sure on long term success.

I have the AI prime's and like them, for a FOWLR (fish only w/ live rock) the lighting won't really matter. Lighting becomes more important once you wish to add corals. Once you have start getting into corals a skimmer, sump, and better lighting will be necessary.

After adding the freshly mixed salt water, I would wait at least two or three weeks to make sure the tank doesn't cycle. Even with the live rock you purchased, it will still take some time for things to establish.

Tisbe · 05/16/2016, 02:24 PM

Your setup should be treated the same as any new saltwater tank. FWIW, water does not cycle the tank does. The bacteria that process the waste are in & on the live rock and/or sand, not the water.

There are things in the rock that will die when you transfer it from one system to another causing at least a mini cycle. The live sand had things die in the bag when it was sitting on the shelf. All of this will decompose, release nutrients that the bacteria feed on, reproduce and eventually reach a balance so there is enough bacteria in the tank to handle the waste produced. When you add livestock the bacterial colony needs time to reach balance once again, which is why you add livestock to your tank slowly. Especially the first 6 months. Just follow the normal cycling and testing regiment and you will be OK.

As far a equipment. You will get a lot of different advise. I have keep things in a quarantine tank for months with only a HOB filter, heater, light, power head and bare bottom. To make this work I do several small water changes a week and vacuum the detritus out each water change. On my display tank, 120 gallons total volume, that would be too much work so the sump, skimmer, filter socks, GFO reactor, etc... help remove the unwanted nutrients in other ways so I only have to do water changes twice a month. The amount of biological material that the tank needs to process is different for each tank due to the type of inhabitants and their food requirement. It is easy to keep good water quality with only one clownfish in a 180 gallon tank, much harder to keep the same guy in a 5 gallon tank (which is too small for Nemo anyways) and I can assure you that your husbandry practices would need to be different with the two tanks even if they had the same equipment on them.

For my setups, I would always plan to have a sump and a skimmer. The sump for hiding equipment and for additional things later like a GFO reactor, refugium, place to grow macro algae etc... It also adds water volume and gives you a little more room for errors which we all made/make in this hobby. In the long run, your success will be determined by your ability to keep the good stuff in the tank and take out the bad stuff. Equipment makes that job a little easier but also comes with its own problems. Best of Luck.

Xxxtremewv · 05/16/2016, 07:04 PM

Yeah i think i am going to attempt some coral but i have some research to do, not sure about species or anything and i want it right from the start (or as right as can be)

Thats why i was asking about the canister filter. I already had the thing regardless so i figured may as well use it. I mean, the way i kind of thought of it is since i have it and moneys already spent, thats just added flow and mechanical filtration, unless im missing something?

If i could buy the tank all over and had the space id do a sump, but for the moment that is a negative.

So, any other suggestions as far as needed equipment? Skinmer? Anything like that? Or some species of coral to start researching to go along with some of te fishys?

Tisbe · 05/16/2016, 09:23 PM

You are on the right track with doing lots of research first. IMO you need a Skimmer. HOB is fine. Get one that is rated for a little bit bigger tank than what you are putting it on. This and lighting I would not pinch pennies on. Something like the Reef Octopus HOB Classic 90 or 300. Get a refractometer and not a swing arm to measure your salinity. Get two heaters and set one a degree or two lower than the first just in case one dies the other will pick up the slack.

The canister filter can be used for filtration, but I would not run bio balls in it. In the long run they end up being a place for detritus to build up. It can be used for holding floss for removing big material, water circulation and to hold media like GFO and/or carbon. If you do not have an RO/DI unit yet, you should get one. Tap water is not good to use and buying water get expensive quickly. You will also need to stay on top of your water changes with the setup you have. If possible look to make a salt mixing station. One container for RO water and one for mixing salt. Both have a powerhead in them to move the water and the salt one also needs a heater. Trust me when I say, in the first year you will need to change 20-50% of your water at some point because of a problem. It is really handy to have this ready when you need it. Never mix saltwater and dump it into your tank without letting it mix at least for a couple hours unless you have no other choice. Most people recommend letting it mix for 24 hours before using it.

For corals you will want something like zoas, plate coral, torch or frogspawn. You should get a few fish in first however. Research everything before you buy it. It is too easy to get things that are not compatible or will be more problems than it is worth like a Kenya Tree. Google "corals to avoid" and you will see a list of corals most reefers would not put in their tanks and yet these are for the most part the same ones that are recommended for beginner, so be careful. They are hardy and grow like weeds which is great until you realize your expensive corals are being killed by that $10 GSP frag that you can't kill. Xenia, Green Star Polyps, Briareum and Kenya Tree are just a small example of things people avoid or isolate on a rock in the sand because they become weeds and kill slower growing corals.

Last but not least, mine is only one opinion and nothing in this hobby is agreed upon by everyone, so take what I say as only one opinion. Read as much as you can and ultimately you will have to make the decisions that you feel are best for your tank.

I hope this helps point you in the right direction.

Xxxtremewv · 05/17/2016, 12:56 AM

Yeah right now the canister has a couple trays of biomedia and floss in top and the sponges in bottom two. Thinking im going to leave media in top, make 3rd some floss, in second putnin some carbon and in the bottom leave the sponge

Awesome info tes, thanks a pile! Any other tidbits for the process you can come up with im all ears!

Tisbe · 05/17/2016, 10:44 AM

If you do not have a quarantine tank yet get one. If you get ich in your main tank the only way to get it out is to remove all fish for months. Corals can stay but you can't treat the tank with chemicals because it will kill everything but your fish. Also realize you will need two since you are doing fish and corals. ALWAYS quarantine everything!!! In my last six frags I got from two different LFS they came in with Aptasia, a zoa eating nudi and flatworms. The Aptaisa I did not find for the fist week because it was growing on the bottom of the frag.

The reason for two is if you do the TTM for your fish you need two. If you want to treat your fish with copper (I prefer TTM) it can get absorbed into the silicone and off gas later when corals are in the tank and kill them. All you need is a tank or plastic bin, light for corals (fish do not care), heater, powerhead and HOB filter. Also put something in for the fish to hide in like a piece of PVC.

This hobby is hard enough without adding more problems into your DT that can easily be avoided.

Natereef · 05/18/2016, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xxxtremewv

Yeah right now the canister has a couple trays of biomedia and floss in top and the sponges in bottom two. Thinking im going to leave media in top, make 3rd some floss, in second putnin some carbon and in the bottom leave the sponge

Awesome info tes, thanks a pile! Any other tidbits for the process you can come up with im all ears!

Canister is just fine. I would keep the coarse sponge but ditch the floss. Fill the other chambers with bio media. Nothing wrong with a canister, just clean it weekly. I run a fluval 406 too my setup is i left the coarse sponge in the red tray and I filled all of the white trays with bio media.

I know this guy. Look at his tank running on a canister filter.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv...564848374.html

05/16/2016, 12:44 PM	#1
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	New tank - FW to SW questions Hey everyone, just had a couple questions if anyone has time So a couple months back i started a 70g tank that was going to be cichlids. The tank was completely cycled via fishless and i went to the lfs to look around yesterday and was so amazed at some of his reef displays i could help it. So i decided if i wanted it now would be the time before i got much further along. This tank will be reef + livefish. On a few tips from him, i came home, siphoned all water into two big trash tubs, added the salt and changed the substrate to a bag of live sand and bought 80 lb of already cured live rock and put in. Now here brings in my questions - i picked up a little from the LfS guy but still have a couple i want some sofferent opinions on Cycling - he told me since the water was already cycled to just add the salt and then the live rock would take care of it in a week or so. Do i need to add anything but the stability he recommended? Or will this really just take care of itself? I wasnt sure on how the benefictial bacteria differ from fw to sw. I got the specific grav in this water at .22 Also, i had a fluvall 406 on this tank, he said that will be just fine to keep using. Everyone agree? I also added a jebao wp25 wavemaker to move the water around. Any other suggestions and advice about what i need to do with equipment and water quality starting this out? I havent found a lot of good info on the bacteria and how cycles would work in this instance. For lighting i will be ordering a couple AI prime LEDs i am thinking this week Thank you very much in advance, any help is much appreciated!!!

05/17/2016, 10:44 AM	#8
Tisbe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Coeur D Alene, Idaho Posts: 170	If you do not have a quarantine tank yet get one. If you get ich in your main tank the only way to get it out is to remove all fish for months. Corals can stay but you can't treat the tank with chemicals because it will kill everything but your fish. Also realize you will need two since you are doing fish and corals. ALWAYS quarantine everything!!! In my last six frags I got from two different LFS they came in with Aptasia, a zoa eating nudi and flatworms. The Aptaisa I did not find for the fist week because it was growing on the bottom of the frag. The reason for two is if you do the TTM for your fish you need two. If you want to treat your fish with copper (I prefer TTM) it can get absorbed into the silicone and off gas later when corals are in the tank and kill them. All you need is a tank or plastic bin, light for corals (fish do not care), heater, powerhead and HOB filter. Also put something in for the fish to hide in like a piece of PVC. This hobby is hard enough without adding more problems into your DT that can easily be avoided. Last edited by Tisbe; 05/17/2016 at 11:29 AM.

05/16/2016, 01:11 PM	#2
lafanblue Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chico, CA Posts: 27	Not an expert but pretty sure that canister filter is not going to cut it. I have read several posts here were people don't suggest using them... but there are always two sides. Can't answer the cycle question completely... with all new rock and sand I would say your going to cycle again.

05/16/2016, 01:16 PM	#3
dweber618 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: MT Posts: 334	I ran a simple 36 gallon tank with fish and rock using a hang on back filter, single powerhead, and no skimmer. I upgraded after only a few months though - so not sure on long term success. I have the AI prime's and like them, for a FOWLR (fish only w/ live rock) the lighting won't really matter. Lighting becomes more important once you wish to add corals. Once you have start getting into corals a skimmer, sump, and better lighting will be necessary. After adding the freshly mixed salt water, I would wait at least two or three weeks to make sure the tank doesn't cycle. Even with the live rock you purchased, it will still take some time for things to establish.

05/16/2016, 02:24 PM	#4
Tisbe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Coeur D Alene, Idaho Posts: 170	Your setup should be treated the same as any new saltwater tank. FWIW, water does not cycle the tank does. The bacteria that process the waste are in & on the live rock and/or sand, not the water. There are things in the rock that will die when you transfer it from one system to another causing at least a mini cycle. The live sand had things die in the bag when it was sitting on the shelf. All of this will decompose, release nutrients that the bacteria feed on, reproduce and eventually reach a balance so there is enough bacteria in the tank to handle the waste produced. When you add livestock the bacterial colony needs time to reach balance once again, which is why you add livestock to your tank slowly. Especially the first 6 months. Just follow the normal cycling and testing regiment and you will be OK. As far a equipment. You will get a lot of different advise. I have keep things in a quarantine tank for months with only a HOB filter, heater, light, power head and bare bottom. To make this work I do several small water changes a week and vacuum the detritus out each water change. On my display tank, 120 gallons total volume, that would be too much work so the sump, skimmer, filter socks, GFO reactor, etc... help remove the unwanted nutrients in other ways so I only have to do water changes twice a month. The amount of biological material that the tank needs to process is different for each tank due to the type of inhabitants and their food requirement. It is easy to keep good water quality with only one clownfish in a 180 gallon tank, much harder to keep the same guy in a 5 gallon tank (which is too small for Nemo anyways) and I can assure you that your husbandry practices would need to be different with the two tanks even if they had the same equipment on them. For my setups, I would always plan to have a sump and a skimmer. The sump for hiding equipment and for additional things later like a GFO reactor, refugium, place to grow macro algae etc... It also adds water volume and gives you a little more room for errors which we all made/make in this hobby. In the long run, your success will be determined by your ability to keep the good stuff in the tank and take out the bad stuff. Equipment makes that job a little easier but also comes with its own problems. Best of Luck.

05/16/2016, 07:04 PM	#5
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Yeah i think i am going to attempt some coral but i have some research to do, not sure about species or anything and i want it right from the start (or as right as can be) Thats why i was asking about the canister filter. I already had the thing regardless so i figured may as well use it. I mean, the way i kind of thought of it is since i have it and moneys already spent, thats just added flow and mechanical filtration, unless im missing something? If i could buy the tank all over and had the space id do a sump, but for the moment that is a negative. So, any other suggestions as far as needed equipment? Skinmer? Anything like that? Or some species of coral to start researching to go along with some of te fishys?

05/16/2016, 09:23 PM	#6
Tisbe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Coeur D Alene, Idaho Posts: 170	You are on the right track with doing lots of research first. IMO you need a Skimmer. HOB is fine. Get one that is rated for a little bit bigger tank than what you are putting it on. This and lighting I would not pinch pennies on. Something like the Reef Octopus HOB Classic 90 or 300. Get a refractometer and not a swing arm to measure your salinity. Get two heaters and set one a degree or two lower than the first just in case one dies the other will pick up the slack. The canister filter can be used for filtration, but I would not run bio balls in it. In the long run they end up being a place for detritus to build up. It can be used for holding floss for removing big material, water circulation and to hold media like GFO and/or carbon. If you do not have an RO/DI unit yet, you should get one. Tap water is not good to use and buying water get expensive quickly. You will also need to stay on top of your water changes with the setup you have. If possible look to make a salt mixing station. One container for RO water and one for mixing salt. Both have a powerhead in them to move the water and the salt one also needs a heater. Trust me when I say, in the first year you will need to change 20-50% of your water at some point because of a problem. It is really handy to have this ready when you need it. Never mix saltwater and dump it into your tank without letting it mix at least for a couple hours unless you have no other choice. Most people recommend letting it mix for 24 hours before using it. For corals you will want something like zoas, plate coral, torch or frogspawn. You should get a few fish in first however. Research everything before you buy it. It is too easy to get things that are not compatible or will be more problems than it is worth like a Kenya Tree. Google "corals to avoid" and you will see a list of corals most reefers would not put in their tanks and yet these are for the most part the same ones that are recommended for beginner, so be careful. They are hardy and grow like weeds which is great until you realize your expensive corals are being killed by that $10 GSP frag that you can't kill. Xenia, Green Star Polyps, Briareum and Kenya Tree are just a small example of things people avoid or isolate on a rock in the sand because they become weeds and kill slower growing corals. Last but not least, mine is only one opinion and nothing in this hobby is agreed upon by everyone, so take what I say as only one opinion. Read as much as you can and ultimately you will have to make the decisions that you feel are best for your tank. I hope this helps point you in the right direction.

05/17/2016, 12:56 AM	#7
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Yeah right now the canister has a couple trays of biomedia and floss in top and the sponges in bottom two. Thinking im going to leave media in top, make 3rd some floss, in second putnin some carbon and in the bottom leave the sponge Awesome info tes, thanks a pile! Any other tidbits for the process you can come up with im all ears!