New tank, snails have died and corals not doing great.

[Jeff4777]

Originally Posted by JC Slater

Hey I have a question and sorry to hijack this thread but I feel it correlates with this discussion and it pertains to the OP.

In theory (Ive never done this, hence the question) could you pull out some live rock, say 10 lbs in the OP case from his existing cycled 55, put it into a "new" tank, take some sand from the 55, seed "new" sand with it in the new tank, then like johnike mentions, take 5-6 gallons of the water from the 55, put it into the new tank and then fill with new saltwater? Isnt this essentially transferring an old tank to a "new" tank and the only difference is some new dry sand, some new fresh saltwater and glass/acrylic?

Would that work and what are the potential impacts to livestock?

I do this on every tank i setup. Have a fully established new tank every time lol. Even if just for QT. I use 100% water from main tank. Then I'll just do small water changes on the new tank from there.

[Astroreefer]

I'm back with results,

Ammonia is 0.3ppm.

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[Astroreefer]

Update:

Ammonia is still at 0.3ppm.

Today the coral seems to be recovering, the discosoma have stretched out fully, the Zoanthids have opened up fully and the Duncan is opening up. Last night I threw in a big bag of carbon to see if it would change anything, and today the corals have responded positively. Do you think this would be a coincidence?

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[whiteshark]

Ammonia should be 0. I'm skeptical of some test kits though. What kind of kit did you use?

I'm also skeptical of ammonia being the cause here. It would be more inclined to believe it had something to do with the expanding foam used, especially if things responded well to the addition of carbon. I just doubt you'd see that kind of ammonia buildup over 2 days with nothing in the tank really contributing any. If the test kit is to be trusted, though, that could be enough to stress the snails IMO.

[whiteshark]

Originally Posted by Jeff4777

I do this on every tank i setup. Have a fully established new tank every time lol. Even if just for QT. I use 100% water from main tank. Then I'll just do small water changes on the new tank from there.

I've done this too, though the "seed water" is not necessary IMO.

Assuming no or little die off, you could start a tank with 100% live rock and essentially be ready to go immediately (as long as it's enough LR for the bioload). The issue I've seen is that generally the only people who want to get going immediately are people new to the hobby. Even if they use 100% LR right off the bat, they are very likely to make some other mistake that leads to things dying off, which in turn causes a cycle. That cycle is misinterpreted as the initial cycle when in reality the tank didn't need to cycle. It was just caused by some other mistake that lead to things dying.

Generally it's a bad idea to move quickly in this hobby. I am staunchly against it for anyone with little or no experience. However, it is possible to have a tank ready to go relatively quickly if you have enough experience.

[2wheelsonly]

Get rid of the foam, it's just going to cause you pain in the future when it starts breaking down. This hobby is already difficult enough making corals happy, there is no way in hell I'd add another variable to the equation.

[Blumy]

When I set up my current tank, I left the old one functioning. I bought new live sand and got "live" water from the LFS' system. Let it set 2 weeks. Added my rock from the old tank including attached frags. Started dosing bacteria. 2 weeks later fish and the rest of the corals went in. No issues. Never even got brown algae. I did have a dyno outbreak later on but frequent carbon changes and running the LEDs at 85% killed it.


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[Astroreefer]

The test kit I used was a Nutrafin / Hagen. I tried to find a Saliferts Ammonia test kit, but they didn't have any in stock. I will do a test on my 55 and see if it's reads zero, that should show us if it's reading correctly.

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[Astroreefer]

The test shown 0 ammonia, so there is defiantly some ammonia in my 9 gallon

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[Dkuhlmann]

Originally Posted by Blumy

When I set up my current tank, I left the old one functioning. I bought new live sand and got "live" water from the LFS' system. Let it set 2 weeks. Added my rock from the old tank including attached frags. Started dosing bacteria. 2 weeks later fish and the rest of the corals went in. No issues. Never even got brown algae. I did have a dyno outbreak later on but frequent carbon changes and running the LEDs at 85% killed it.


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There is no such thing as "live" water. Your bacteria live in the rock and sand in a tank. Buying "live" sand is a hit or miss and IMO it's not worth the extra money they charge for it.

You bringing your live rock from the other tank is what has given you the pleasure of not having to cycle the new tank.

You are taking chances of putting bad diseases in your tank by getting water from your LFS. That is something I would highly recommend to never do.

[Astroreefer]

Thought I would give a quick update,

I decided that it would be best to do as recommended by a couple and I torn down the rock works and removed as much of the foam as possible and then set it all back up in my old 15" cube with new sand, the cylinder seemed to have less space for corals since all the rockwork is basically vertical. I also made a 30W led light fixture, with 5 x RB, 2 x 6500K and 3 x 12000K 3W leds. I am amazed at how different the corals look under these instead of T5's, I have some Zoanthids which have a purple disc in my 55 under T5's, but in this tank under LEDs the disc have changed to a darkish green disc!

Since I torn down the tank and set it back up, the corals have responded well. Ammonia is gone, Nitrate is at 0. pH is on the lower side at 7.5, but im not going to chase any numbers. Phosphate is up high at 0.25ppm, but Ive added some GFO and a handful of Chaeto. I also got a Diatom bloom, I was going to leave that alone but after a couple days it got old and I had previously saw a few posts about using Yeast, so I sprinkled in a pinch of yeast into the refugium and the next day it had started to clear up, so I continued to put a small pinch in everyday for the past few days and most of it has cleared up now. Here are some pictures

FTS



Discosoma



"Purple Zoanthids"



Duncan

[Mishri]

Glad you got it working for you.

Your "dry rock" that you used likely had some decaying organic matter inside of it. I let mine soak for a couple of weeks and my tank cycled just off of the dead matter in the rocks (even though I washed them really well). looks like you've got it working now.

As you guessed, your corals and CUC wouldn't add enough of a bioload to cause an ammonia spike. If you ever plan on adding fish then you might run into a problem.. in that case i'd recommend putting an ammonia alert badge in there... (or testing as often as you can, morning, noon, night).. with larger tanks that are established with a lot of rock/coral/cuc adding a single fish wont likely cause an ammonia spike that would harm anything.. but with a tank that small I'd be concerned... but it could be alright still.. might just need some water changes... or ammonia binder(water changes better imo).

[AK707]

once the first snail dies wouldn't that make the ammonia spike causing a chain reaction since the biofilter hasn't totally been established to handle that yet.?

[ssick92]

Originally Posted by Joshuabbott

Thought I would give a quick update,

I decided that it would be best to do as recommended by a couple and I torn down the rock works and removed as much of the foam as possible and then set it all back up in my old 15" cube with new sand, the cylinder seemed to have less space for corals since all the rockwork is basically vertical. I also made a 30W led light fixture, with 5 x RB, 2 x 6500K and 3 x 12000K 3W leds. I am amazed at how different the corals look under these instead of T5's, I have some Zoanthids which have a purple disc in my 55 under T5's, but in this tank under LEDs the disc have changed to a darkish green disc!

Since I torn down the tank and set it back up, the corals have responded well. Ammonia is gone, Nitrate is at 0. pH is on the lower side at 7.5, but im not going to chase any numbers. Phosphate is up high at 0.25ppm, but Ive added some GFO and a handful of Chaeto. I also got a Diatom bloom, I was going to leave that alone but after a couple days it got old and I had previously saw a few posts about using Yeast, so I sprinkled in a pinch of yeast into the refugium and the next day it had started to clear up, so I continued to put a small pinch in everyday for the past few days and most of it has cleared up now. Here are some pictures

FTS

Glad things are clearing up for you, but your practices are making me nervous. Rather than do a "quick fix" to get rid of diatoms, just let it run its course. The next "quick fix" that you do could crash your tank due to 1 small mistake or simply because your tank is different than every other tank in water chemistry, organisms, etc. and it may react differently in your system.

The 2 golden rules of this hobby:

1. Nothing good happens fast.
2. Don't add anything to your tank that you can't or don't test for.

You broke both of those already. One of these "quick fixes" is going to be the end of your tank sooner or later. I would advise against it and just let time run its course.

But with all that said, glad your tank is recovering and best of luck to you!

[Astroreefer]

Hi, yeah I seem to break the rules quite often and I wish I could make myself follow the guidelines more strictly...

I stopped "dosing" the yeast and the diatoms have completely gone. Phosphate and Nitrate are not detectable but the chaeto is growing seriously fast, it's probably tripled in size.

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[Astroreefer]

I also added some more SPS and LPS, heres the current tank stock:

Torch Coral
Xenia
GSP
Montipora
Turquoise Staghorn Acropora
Pink Seriatapora
Duncan
Zoanthids
Caliendrum

I know I have some of the "harder" SPS and this'll be this first time I have Acropora, but we'll see how it goes.











The Duncan has had a head split since the last update and even seems to have grown since last





I also just wanted to add that Alkalinity has been dropping alot quicker in the past few days, it dropped 1 dkh in 2 days and then another 1.5 dkh after another 2 days, but Calcium is staying rock solid at 440ppm. I'm trying to keep Alkalinity at 11 and am already having to dose 2 part to keep up.

[Astroreefer]

Damn.


Checking on my tank just now and I instantly noticed that my Torch wasn't as extended as it usually is and just seems a bit dull. After checking everything else I checked the temp to find it's down at 18°C! I have two 50w heaters and I checked them both and neither is powered on. Turns out that the extension lead they're both plugged into blown it's fuse. It was a 3A, and the heaters are the only thing plugged into It, that means these two heaters must have pulled ~700w to blow it?


Anyway, I fear for the health of the corals and I'm not sure how to go about raising the temp. Should I let the heaters heat the water as quickly as they can, or turn go slower?

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[tklb]

If you used dry rock, you will likely have a lot of Ammonia and Phosphate over the next several months as the things that died in the rock when it was taken out of the water break down.

I got 100 Lbs of dry rock from BRS, and put in in a barrel with salt water, a heater and a pump out in the garage, and you would not believe how nasty the water got. Was changing the water every week, and within 2 days it would smell terrible and have a thick skim on top. Ammonia and phosphate through the roof for weeks. It takes a long time for everything in the rocks to break down.

Just be carefull and keep an eye on it.

[2smokes]

Originally Posted by Joshuabbott

Damn.


Checking on my tank just now and I instantly noticed that my Torch wasn't as extended as it usually is and just seems a bit dull. After checking everything else I checked the temp to find it's down at 18°C! I have two 50w heaters and I checked them both and neither is powered on. Turns out that the extension lead they're both plugged into blown it's fuse. It was a 3A, and the heaters are the only thing plugged into It, that means these two heaters must have pulled ~700w to blow it?


Anyway, I fear for the health of the corals and I'm not sure how to go about raising the temp. Should I let the heaters heat the water as quickly as they can, or turn go slower?

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Raise the temp slow during a whoole day .

[Astroreefer]

Thanks, I don't really have a choice anyway since its taken all this time for the heaters to bring the temp only up to 21.0°C so far. The torch is extending some more and the other corals don't seem phased, so hopefully it'll be disaster averted

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[jlmawp]

Originally Posted by Joshuabbott

If this is an Ammonia problem, then I think the major source would be from the sand I used to seed the tank, the sand was kept submerged in tank water whislt being transported over and never got exposed to air to try and prevent die off. I was using all dry rock before the problem and only used LR after the problems developed. The rock I used was described as Natural Limestone Ocean Rock, I have attached a photo of the rock I purchased. I used 10Kg of this in this tank. I will buy a test kit in the morning and will report the results here. I do hope it is an ammonia issue since that will be an easier issue to fix than if it is the rockwork causing the problems.

You yourself said when you removed the snails from the tank, they perked up right away. Imagine that.

[Astroreefer]

Still can't be sure if this was due to Ammonia or something leaching from the foam, the tank recovered after carbon was put in. I imagine it was a combination of Ammonia and leached chemicals that was to blame, but I am still unsure where the Ammonia originated from, did the seeded sand die off and cause the spike, or was the rock contaminated with a large amount of organic matter, I guess I'll never know.

Might as well as do a quick update:

All the corals have settled in and I am seeing some growth on my Monitpora and Caliendrum. Alkalinity has finally stabilised dosing 7ml of Alkalinity per day.

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