What's Wrong with my Sump Idea?

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Hey all,

My tank is coming closer to fruition. One of the two designs I've narrowed things down to is a reef ready 40 gallon breeder (36" long).

I intend to have a filter sock, skimmer, and return pump below. have an Eshops 75 which is the model for this; it's just a modification of the basic model

And here's my weird idea: I would like to have a refugium as close to 20 gallons actual fuge space as possible.

The idea is just to go to BigBoxPets or Craigslist, get a 20 gal. I.

But then the even weird thing I'm thinking is to use a low profile or even HOB sump, and then put a small pump along the same side of the tank, to maximize fuge space.

Here's the thinking:
Display Tank down to filter sock
After filter sock, water accumulates in a small area
Goes to HOB skimmer
HOB skimmer pumps out to fuge
Blocked off, at the same end of the fuge, is the return pump (low profile) to DT

[see very rough - better than MS paint, but just barely - attached graphic]



I don't know anyone else who's used a sump like this, and so that says to me there's something wrong with the ldea .

Any help on telling me what's wrong?

Thanks,

KoAT

[SFish]

If the power goes out wouldn't that HOB sump over fill and go onto the floor? Wouldn't you want to pump into the HOB sump from your normal sump and let it flow out by gravity?

[Rybren]

I'd skip the socks and run the drain from the DT directly into the skimmer and have the skimmer output flow into the sump/fuge. If you really feel the need for a filter sock, run the output into it. A skimmer like the Reef Octopus 110 recirculating would be perfect for this job. It can be run internally or externally and is a great size for your setup.

[ericarenee]

well

ok First On power outage that return chamber is not large enough to control the water drain back from the display tank..


Have it from one end to the other..

Skimmer chamber .. Make this the tallest area in the sump just large enough to contain your skimmer .. then have a set of bubble traps.. then the return chamber .. then the Refugium at the other end.. from the drain water leaving the tank have a t and gate valve diverting some of the tank water into the fuge . and the rest into the skimmer chamber.. no FILTER SOCKS. if you feed properly they cause more harm then good..


the reasoning behind this is..

with the skimmer and fuge on each end you can make them very deep.. with bubble traps between them and return pump chamber . you can add filter material between the baffles when needed if you stir up the tank....

skimmer chamber can be like 8 inches and return about the same on that size tank. make the skimmer chamber about 2 inches shorter then the tanks height and set the skimmer on a stand to get it at its right height .. the fuge chamber make it about 3 inches shorter then the tank... this should

hope this is worded clear enough to understand..

just my opinion and how i set all of mine up

[SFish]

I see I miss read what you were trying to do. Yeah that return pump area is probably way to small. An external skimmer may be the way to go if you have room in the stand.

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Thanks for the replies so far. I did make a typo in the OP (what I get for writing it at 2:30AM )

Edited full post (just for any reader's convenience) is:

[I'm thinking up a sump/refugium for a potential future 40gal breeder tank - ie 36X16X16 inches]

I intend to have a filter sock, skimmer, and return pump below. I have an Eshops 75 which is the model for this; my idea is just a modification of the basic model.

My objective is to have a refugium as close to 20 gallons actual fuge space as possible.

To do this, I'll start by getting a 20 gallon tank form BigBoxPets or Craigslist (so far so good).

But then, to increase fuge space, my weird idea is to use a low profile or even HOB skimmer (sorry for the typo in the OP), and then put a small pump along the same side of the tank, to maximize fuge space.

Here's the thinking:
Display Tank down to filter sock
After filter sock, water accumulates in a small area
Goes to HOB skimmer (Reef Octopus HOB 1000; I have an excellent condition on I got used)
HOB skimmer pumps out to fuge
Blocked off, at the same end of the fuge, is the return pump (low profile - Eheim 2000 or similar) to DT

[see very rough - better than MS paint, but just barely - attached graphic]



I don't know anyone else who's used a sump like this, and so that says to me there's something wrong with the ldea .

Any help on telling me what's wrong?

Thanks,

KoAT

Thanks again for the replies so far. To hit peoples' key points:

- no filter socks? Fine by me. Again, I'm envisioning a 40G display tank, which will start as LR only (LRWOF? ), then FOWLR (2-4 fishes at most, I think), then maybe I'll add softies and anemones (no earlier 6 months after I first add the LR). I also prefer more mimimal ("modern") aquascaping - bottom line is that I don't think this will be a heavy bioload tank. I will also resist Running it into the (possibly too large) skimmer is fine by me.

- re: "from the drain water leaving the tank have a t and gate valve diverting some of the tank water into the fuge . and the rest into the skimmer chamber." - ah, this is an interesting point. So, it's generally accepted that not 100% of the water will go into the skimmer each time it runs through a sump/fuge?

- area for pump is not big enough - OK. If I run an Eheim 2000 (265-528 GPH
Dimensions: H5.4" x W3.2" x D5.0”), about how much space will I need?

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by KingOfAll_Tyrants

Thanks for the replies so far. I did make a typo in the OP (what I get for writing it at 2:30AM )

Edited full post (just for any reader's convenience) is:


Thanks again for the replies so far. To hit peoples' key points:

- no filter socks? Fine by me. Again, I'm envisioning a 40G display tank, which will start as LR only (LRWOF? ), then FOWLR (2-4 fishes at most, I think), then maybe I'll add softies and anemones (no earlier 6 months after I first add the LR). I also prefer more mimimal ("modern") aquascaping - bottom line is that I don't think this will be a heavy bioload tank. I will also resist Running it into the (possibly too large) skimmer is fine by me.

- re: "from the drain water leaving the tank have a t and gate valve diverting some of the tank water into the fuge . and the rest into the skimmer chamber." - ah, this is an interesting point. So, it's generally accepted that not 100% of the water will go into the skimmer each time it runs through a sump/fuge?

- area for pump is not big enough - OK. If I run an Eheim 2000 (265-528 GPH
Dimensions: H5.4" x W3.2" x D5.0”), about how much space will I need?

the skimmer never picks up on all the water passing by it so its not a factor in play.as far as bypassing some drain water to fuge .my opinion the fuge gets more contact and you can control the water flow speed easier on drain then return pump.its how i have mine setup.Its not a requirement just a prefrence .
the pump chamber considerations are power out drain back volume space,you do not want this to over flow into skimmer chamber causing skimmer to over flow.You also will have your top off in this chamber.the larger capacity the fewer times it will run.


fuge setup in general depends on what you want to get out of it.
hope this helps

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Thanks again for the suggestions. I've modified my idea a bit.

1. I've researched the value of baffles, and the main problem they hope to solve is preventing unsightly (and possibly unhealthy for corals?) microbubbles from getting to the DT. Some people go baffleless, thinking this is not a big problem. I would rather go baffle-less for the skimmer in the fuge, I guess keeping baffles only for the return pump chamber. Will baffles be useful here?

2. chamber for the return pump is bigger. Taking up maybe 6LX6WX12H of my posited 20G Long (30X12X12).

As for the fuge, I intend it to be a deep sand bed macroalgae area, to complement the DT.

[albano]

Originally Posted by ericarenee

... no FILTER SOCKS. if you feed properly they cause more harm then good..

What are the problems with filter socks?

[jayball]

My opinions.

In sump skimmers are just plain better and if they overflow it will just go back into the sump, make room for one.

I also do not run a filter sock, I will occasionally rig one op on the sump input pipe during maintenance, this can help you fit a real skimmer without compromising too much with fuge space.

The return pump chamber should also hold a couple days of evap before your pump burns, you will eventually forget to fill your ATO container and not notice for a bit. If your pump runs dry by the next day you may not notice in time.

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by albano

What are the problems with filter socks?

If you maintain your system correctly and do not over feed there is no real need for them. They trap pods and are something else to clean.. I do not need more to clean .

when I am doing anything that could stir up the sand or get into the water i will clip one over the edge of my tank with my Drain in it to kinda polish the water... I Do have a big sump with a Calm empty area that detritus will settle i vacuum that out when i do water changes .

Simply is often better i learned this the hard way sometimes

[albano]

Originally Posted by ericarenee

If you maintain your system correctly and do not over feed there is no real need for them. They trap pods and are something else to clean.. I do not need more to clean...

Ok, that is your opinion...on the other hand, I have run multiple systems over the past 12-15yrs with filter socks, and IMO/E would not consider not having them.
I think that making them very easy and convenient to replace is important...I can change a sock in seconds, which makes it easy to do daily (if necessary) on my 700g system with 80 fish, where not over feeding was not an option.

My new 1000g system will include multiple socks

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by albano

Ok, that is your opinion...on the other hand, I have run multiple systems over the past 12-15yrs with filter socks, and IMO/E would not consider not having them.
I think that making them very easy and convenient to replace is important...I can change a sock in seconds, which makes it easy to do daily (if necessary) on my 700g system with 80 fish, where not over feeding was not an option.

My new 1000g system will include multiple socks

With that many fish and that large of a tank i would agree with you depending on other equipment..
When i was using them i used two buckets.. one with holes in the bottom on top of another i would toss the used socks (made by me with micron filter pads. )every day or so when i would change them into the top bucket then once a week toss them in the washer.. I stopped using them when i expended my Refugium...

There is more then one way to skin a Aquarium.. Giggles..

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Originally Posted by albano

What are the problems with filter socks?

From what I hear, they get clogged with fish $#&t. Kind of like cat litter, except concentrated in a sock, all wet with salt water, which has sat there for a few days.

Originally Posted by jayball

My opinions.

In sump skimmers are just plain better and if they overflow it will just go back into the sump, make room for one.

The return pump chamber should also hold a couple days of evap before your pump burns, you will eventually forget to fill your ATO container and not notice for a bit. If your pump runs dry by the next day you may not notice in time.

Thanks. The thing about the skimmer makes sense, but my worry is that this will take away refugium space (I guess I need figure out how to best balance space: how much for equipment and how much for the fuge). Also, I'll have to research how they keep the chamber to keep water (no need to explain, I've seen it on the web). More things for me to consider.....

[albano]

Originally Posted by KingOfAll_Tyrants

From what I hear, they get clogged with fish $#&t. Kind of like cat litter, except concentrated in a sock, all wet with salt water, which has sat there for a few days. :eek.

If you're not gonna clean them...DON'T use them...
Whatever doesn't get removed by the socks, is 'clogging' your filter/sump... IMO cleaning, vacuuming the sump is a lot more work than switching socks

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Originally Posted by albano

If you're not gonna clean them...DON'T use them...
Whatever doesn't get removed by the socks, is 'clogging' your filter/sump... IMO cleaning, vacuuming the sump is a lot more work than switching socks

Isn't that the truth! I've read both sides of the issue, it's just a matter of choosing which is best for a 40G tank.

It seems to me that keeping, say, 4-5 of them and switching them out between the tank, the laundry, and the "ready" area every few days is an easy way to deal with it. If my wife can accept fish $^%t in the washing machine (even if I rinse it out beforehand).........