Automatic salt adder - ideas

[karimwassef]

Balling method?

[iceet]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Adding two part is the same or more liquid as supersaturated kalk water. The argument for two part isn't scientific or objective. Unless you've done the math and can demonstrate it, please stop beating the wrong dead horse.

Karim my desi friend, I did some quick crude calculations to help a brother out.

In my heavily SPS/LPS/snail stocked 65 gallon system I use 10 ml each of calcium and alkalinity 2 part solutions (the brand I use is ESV B-Ionic)
That is 20 ml per day. Your system is 700 gallons so approximately 11x mine. So you would need to dose approximately 110 ml of each solution in 2 part for a total volume of 220 ml.

My question for you now is, are you currently adding more then 220 ml of supersaturated kalk solution per day? If so 2 part may be worth looking into. A gallon of part 1 and a gallon of part 2 would last you approximately one month at that rate and you wouldn't lose salinity.

[iceet]

The balling method is something completely different but good for managing larger reefs from what I've read. It incorporates trace elements not found in some 2 part mixes.

If you are going to continue your current method you can add vinegar to your kalk container to have slightly more kalk dissolve. There are articles on this but you probably already know about it.

[zachts]

Originally Posted by iceet

The balling method is something completely different but good for managing larger reefs from what I've read. It incorporates trace elements not found in some 2 part mixes.

If you are going to continue your current method you can add vinegar to your kalk container to have slightly more kalk dissolve. There are articles on this but you probably already know about it.

I don't think vinegar applies when using a kalk reactor.

Though......wonder if he could dose vinegar into the kalk reactor and if that would have any good/bad results.......

[iceet]

True

[karimwassef]

Thank you all for trying to fix what you believe is the root cause of my DIY need.

I'm going to reset by saying I choose to auto-add 10 gal/day RODI water beyond my evap rate. Why? Doesn't matter for the purpose of this DIY.

In time, I'm going to add two part and a calcium reactor in an attempt to judge for myself what works best for me.

Having reset that - I need to add the equivalent dry salt. Back to the topic at hand

[karimwassef]

So reviewing the balling method from Tropic Marin. How does it compare in cost and volume to kalkwasser?

I can get a 5 gallon (~10kg) bucket of kalkwasser for ~$50. That lasts about a year with my current calcium and carbonate needs.

I can get a 200lb IO salt mix bags (~27kg) for ~$40... or RC for ~$50

I realize the 3 part balling method include salt NaCl from the A/B reaction and the C delivers the Mg and remaining trace, so it's a more complete replacement. But 3kg (A/B/C) is ~ $45.

How much of the balling three part would I need to match my current kalkwasser consumption of 0.8-1kg/month ?

[username in use]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I choose to auto-add 10 gal/day RODI water beyond my evap rate. Why? Doesn't matter for the purpose of this DIY

I think that's a pretty important point that I didn't see mentioned earlier in the thread.

Why are you topping up more than you are evaporating? Especially with an overflow on your sump. That is why your salt is dropping. Eliminate that bizarre maintenance routine and your problems should sort themselves out without having to create some over complicated salt delivery method.

[karimwassef]

I am not topping off more than I am evaporating.

I am adding enough kalk to support my growth rate.

I have two completely separate loops- one for RODI and one for kalk. Kalk usually covers the RODI need except in some summer months.

[zachts]

Is a calcium reactor out of the question for some reason? Your setup is more than large enough to justify one?

[karimwassef]

I consider it more inconvenient. Instead of just adding kalk from a bucket, I need to replenish both the media and CO2. It also requires one more probe from my Apex to measure pH to regulate.

Kalk is very easy and I know that there's no P in it...

Noone knows how to line up the balling method quantities to my kalk use?

[salty joe]

If I understand the Balling method, it's two part plus the addition of mag and trace elements. That makes sense to me unless you aren't testing for the trace elements. I don't think I could trust a formula that says if you use X kalk add Y trace element mix.

Balling looks a lot like the Dutch reefing method except Dutch tests and adjusts for each additive. I'm gonna give the Dutch reefing method a try.

I agree with zachts that a calcium reactor might be a good way to go. You don't have to control the CO2 with another probe. I had mine set up using the minimum CO2 and had no trouble getting it where there was no gas buildup in the reactor. A very nice way to add a lot of alk and cal to a tank. I didn't even use a bubble counter-the key is a good needle valve. You can tell how much CO2 is being taken up by the sound. If the reactor is set up right, you don't need a second pump, you can use the pressure from the circulation pump to drive the effluent. I had low pH so I went with two part, pH is still on the low side. The calcium reactor was not depressing pH as much as I suspected. If you use a lot of kalk, it sounds like a good fit to me.

[Windy2]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Thanks zack. I realize that solid dispensers exist in industrial settings. I'm trying to replicate this at low cost. Super accuracy isn't important.

Go with an auto feeder. I have used them to add kalk. I used pickling lime.

[karimwassef]

There are many great ways to add calcium and carbonate.

I have been using kalk for two years with great results, except for the excess water causing fluctuations in salinity. Every one of them has its drawbacks & risks. It also varies based on the tank volume and consumption. If I had a small tank (<100g), I would absolutely go two part...

Kalk can spike pH in small tanks or dilute the salt in tanks with a lot of consumption (like mine). It is very easy to maintain though. I can keep my tank at Ca 500, Alk 8, pH 8.4 consistently. Mg drifts with salinity so it needs to be adjusted with water changes or the adding of Mg (which can get expensive).

Two part is very nice, but very expensive IMO. Randy's mix makes it affordable, but takes effort and time. It would increase the NaCl salinity over time, but adding water should make up (and that's easier than adding salt water). It lacks Mg, so that needs to be balanced in too. That leaves all the trace elements...

Calcium reactors... I had a couple back in the 90s. Between the expensive media and finding an easy source to refill the CO2, it was a hassle and CO2 wasn't cheap either. I always suspected that the media could be releasing other chemicals that were sequestered in the mineral.

Ca chloride only is also not self sustaining.

Balling is very elegant IMO. It's two part but with the balance of all trace elements. If it's cost effective, I could (in theory) make Randy's two part, add Tropic part C and dose in balance...

Maybe a good way to approach this is to go back and compare my kalk usage to the equivalent AB, then relate that to the balling ABC to deduce the amount of C needed.

[Fishbulb2]

Yeah, this is not what you want. When you add too much salt, the calcium chloride with precipitate out as calcium carbonate. Then you cannot redissolve it at marine pH. So it's just wasted calcium. Not what we want in a reef tank. Post this in the chemistry forum if you have doubts.

FB

[karimwassef]

The two parts A and B are added far apart in distance and time. They create an abundance of calcium and carbonate ions that cannot precipitate due to "interference" from other ions like Mg, as well as the Na and Cl themselves.

That's the basis of the A/B two part.

Randy adds a part C (Mg).

Balling adds a more complete part C (Mg+trace)

[karimwassef]

Randy's Mg addition is good because regular water changes should bring trace back under control.

[jking1024]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Settled on this. It has a built in motor and auger.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004BL...=AC_SY200_QL40

It'll probably need some DIY work to adapt it. Should have it next week.

I know it's been most of the year since this thread was touched. Did you get this feeder to work for you? Are you using it with the balling method?

[karimwassef]

I actually went with a different feeder for pellet food and decided to go liquid for the balling method.

[muttley000]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I actually went with a different feeder for pellet food and decided to go liquid for the balling method.

Who's balling chemicals did you go with?

[karimwassef]

My own... ok, really it's Randy's #2 mix. All materials from Amazon.

Actually, I started it, but then got distracted with other responsibilities and stopped water changes for a few months. Also stopped my skimmer and my RODI output is not at zero any more. Negligence, I know.

The only thing I maintained was adding kalkwasser to the reactor.

Things are still ok.

[ajm83]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

2 part is prohibitively expensive on a 700g system compared to kalk.

I understand why you want to use kalk, but is price really a concern? I mean you can buy sodium carbonate anyhdrate on ebay for £1/KG. Less if you can store big amounts (500-1000KG)

[ajm83]

Oops, sorry didn't see your last post (and can't edit my last message?)