Dual sumps/piping between?

riz94107 · 04/17/2017, 01:56 PM

I've got my first saltwater tank set up testing all the various bits with water, and i'm finding that maybe my 10gal sump (for a 65-gal tank) isn't quite big enough. Everything works, and I can dial in the return so that it stays in balance, but I'm a bit afraid that I'm going to wind up with a wet floor because the tolerance is pretty narrow - by which I mean, while it's possible to set everything so that when the power goes out there's enough room in the sump to handle all the water draining back, it's also possible (and not even hard, if I'm not paying attention) to set the overflow so that the sump overflows when the power's off. Due to limitations of the stand (there's a big honking support partition right in the middle), I can only fit a 10g sump - so I'm considering adding a second 10g sump on the other side of the stand with the return, and running a 1" (or more) pipe between them through bulkheads.

What I have currently is a two chamber sump; the big chamber, in which I'm intending to put a skimmer eventually (gotta save my pennies), has dual 1" overflow pipes from the main tank set up Herbie-style. For the return, I have a Jebao DCT-4000; running it right around 70% seems to be the sweet spot for balancing inflow and outflow. The problem I foresee is that every time I turn off the return I have little enough "extra" water that I wind up having to tweak things to get the siphon started before the pump has emptied the return chamber - and I'm afraid one of the times I tweak it, it'll wind up in a state where the overflow is submerged enough that if the power goes out, I'll wind up with a wet floor - I think I've got about a gallon, maybe 1.5, of play in the system, and I don't think that's enough.

As I mentioned above, I was thinking about installing a second 10gal. sump on the other side of the partition. Any suggestions about how to partition the second sump, how far off the bottom of the tank to drill, and relative sizing of the return chamber? I imagine I could divide the second tank similarly to the first (see attached picture).

... or about a two-thirds/one-third split - making the smaller chambers (one in each sump) the inflow/return, and connecting the larger chambers to each other with the new pipe - the question being, should the hole be right near the bottom of the tank (I imagine that would be best for flow), or should I put it nearer the expected waterline (about 8" off the bottom)? Should it be at the same level in both tanks? (I imagine yes, but if not, let me know!)

Anyway, this is exciting - I've got a tubfull of formerly-dry rock that's actively processing ammonia (it's been wet for about eight weeks, and I just added ammonia to 2ppm, and it was gone in 36h, and the nitrites spiked and were gone in 48!) and I've cleared the space where the tank will go. Now I just have to solve a couple more problems, and I can set it up in its final home. Hm, I should probably start my QT tank cycling...

billdogg · 04/17/2017, 05:40 PM

The only safe fixes, IMO, are a bigger sump or lower the baffles so that there is room in the sump for any and all drain-back from the DT. Period. Anything that has to be "tweaked" just perfectly is doomed to failure.

Until you've experienced 20 or 30 (or more) gallons of water on the floor, you have no appreciation for just how big of a mess it really is.

Adding a second sump area will do the trick, but can be a pia to set up. It will require drilling both tanks, and with a big enough bulkhead to allow unimpeded flow between the two. The holes will need to be as low as you can put them, and flow should be all into one of them at one end, the return pump at the far end of tank 2. 10g tanks are, by far, the most difficult to drill because of how thin they are. Some may be tempered as well. I would find a way to put one larger sump in place. It will be easier both now and down the road.

jm.02

BigBlueTang · 04/17/2017, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billdogg

The only safe fixes, IMO, are a bigger sump or lower the baffles so that there is room in the sump for any and all drain-back from the DT. Period. Anything that has to be "tweaked" just perfectly is doomed to failure.

Until you've experienced 20 or 30 (or more) gallons of water on the floor, you have no appreciation for just how big of a mess it really is.

Adding a second sump area will do the trick, but can be a pia to set up. It will require drilling both tanks, and with a big enough bulkhead to allow unimpeded flow between the two. The holes will need to be as low as you can put them, and flow should be all into one of them at one end, the return pump at the far end of tank 2. 10g tanks are, by far, the most difficult to drill because of how thin they are. Some may be tempered as well. I would find a way to put one larger sump in place. It will be easier both now and down the road.

jm.02

I agree completely. It's going to be a major pain to drill a 10g, and if you crack your existing sump, it's a new problem that you have to solve, except you're under a time crunch. I'm not 100% sure if petco has it's 1$ per gallon sale right now, but if they do just pick up a 20L as a sump. What are the dimensions under your stand?

riz94107 · 04/17/2017, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBlueTang

I agree completely. It's going to be a major pain to drill a 10g, and if you crack your existing sump, it's a new problem that you have to solve, except you're under a time crunch. I'm not 100% sure if petco has it's 1$ per gallon sale right now, but if they do just pick up a 20L as a sump. What are the dimensions under your stand?

about an inch wider than the 10g sump.

If there was one a little taller, that could work, but there really isn't any room. Petco does, in fact, have the sale - that's where I got this tank!

A 20L is definitely not going to fit; not no way, not nohow.

I need to figure out how to solve this. I could build a new stand, but realistically that isn't going to happen (to my satisfaction, anyway) for months - too many other projects competing for my time. I'll probably go ahead and try the dual-sump thing, ill-advised as it likely is.

JZinCO · 04/17/2017, 10:53 PM

You could fit a 15 high or an eshopps WD-100CS (15 gal) in that space. Consider the latter pre-baffled for you

Perhaps you could also build a plywood sump (or two) in order to custom fit your sump(s). No need to worry about drilling thin glass in that case.

Or, just re-route to elsewhere. Maybe make a box next to the stand and hide a tank inside of it of whatever size you desire. Fashion it like a storage trunk or bench for aesthetics.

Just a few more ideas you may have not considered.

iLLwiLL · 04/18/2017, 11:12 AM

Do they still make 15 talls? I was looking for a couple for an ato and dosing reservoirs but couldn't find them anywhere. Have you considered building a better stand with an opening big enough for whatever size sump you want to use?

JZinCO · 04/18/2017, 04:29 PM

OP said they have no time to build a new stand.
I'd bet the best bet is to build a custom plywood tank or find a less conventional container and then add in buffles.

e.g.
https://agrimart.net/16-gallon-recta...FQK1wAod_0EDxQ
https://www.ebay.com/p/?iid=27263493...pp=true&chn=ps

ru4serious · 04/18/2017, 05:17 PM

If the tank isn't set up with rock or anything else. Just drain the tank, take it off the stand and put a 20 gallon long in the stand.

billdogg · 04/18/2017, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4serious

If the tank isn't set up with rock or anything else. Just drain the tank, take it off the stand and put a 20 gallon long in the stand.

That is a very good idea as well. The DT is only a 65. Even if it has rocks and water in it, it would be a simple matter to drain it as much as possible, have a couple guys pick it up, slip in a larger sump and set it back on the stand. I'm willing to bet I could do it in less than 20 minutes.

elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 07:04 PM

Definitely lower baffles on that I to have a 10 gal sump on my 110gal hex all I can fit under my stand lol they are about half way up the tank and I can kill the power and not have to worry about it over flowing.

riz94107 · 04/18/2017, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billdogg

That is a very good idea as well. The DT is only a 65. Even if it has rocks and water in it, it would be a simple matter to drain it as much as possible, have a couple guys pick it up, slip in a larger sump and set it back on the stand. I'm willing to bet I could do it in less than 20 minutes.

Nope, not with this stand. The support is back-to-front, not just in front. 20L is impossible with this stand.

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riz94107 · 04/18/2017, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elbowdeep29

Definitely lower baffles on that I to have a 10 gal sump on my 110gal hex all I can fit under my stand lol they are about half way up the tank and I can kill the power and not have to worry about it over flowing.

Lowering the baffles doesn't make the tank hold any more water...

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elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 07:59 PM

No but you don't have to have so much water in the tank to clear the baffles

elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 08:00 PM

Thus when power is out you have less chance to overflow. With yours up high you need more water in your sump so more likely to overflow

riz94107 · 04/18/2017, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elbowdeep29

No but you don't have to have so much water in the tank to clear the baffles

Ah! Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks!

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elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 08:11 PM

Np!

elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 08:22 PM

If the pic worked this is mine

elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 08:24 PM

Crappy thing with small sumps and lower water is I have to add about 2 gallons to each day

elbowdeep29 · 04/18/2017, 08:25 PM

Ro water^^

riz94107 · 04/18/2017, 09:39 PM

definitely had some good ideas in this thread. I will probably take a multi-pronged approach of starting with the exact right amount of water (which, for some reason, I hadn't done correctly until just a few minutes ago) - If I start from the main tank drained to the overflow line and the sump as full as I'm comfortable having it, it's pretty much exactly the right amount. I don't get the benefit of a display tank as full as I'd like, but it works and I'm confident I won't get a puddle.

For the medium term, I'll probably try my hand at building a very slightly larger sump custom - I have a cheap source of 1/4" glass and adding the baffles to this sump gave me more confidence in my glass-cutting skills!

Longer term, I'll either build a new stand or upgrade my tank!

Thanks for the all the feedback, folks!

04/17/2017, 05:40 PM	#2
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	The only safe fixes, IMO, are a bigger sump or lower the baffles so that there is room in the sump for any and all drain-back from the DT. Period. Anything that has to be "tweaked" just perfectly is doomed to failure. Until you've experienced 20 or 30 (or more) gallons of water on the floor, you have no appreciation for just how big of a mess it really is. Adding a second sump area will do the trick, but can be a pia to set up. It will require drilling both tanks, and with a big enough bulkhead to allow unimpeded flow between the two. The holes will need to be as low as you can put them, and flow should be all into one of them at one end, the return pump at the far end of tank 2. 10g tanks are, by far, the most difficult to drill because of how thin they are. Some may be tempered as well. I would find a way to put one larger sump in place. It will be easier both now and down the road. jm.02 __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer Last edited by billdogg; 04/17/2017 at 05:46 PM.

04/18/2017, 11:12 AM	#6
iLLwiLL Codename: Dutchess Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the danger zone Posts: 933	Do they still make 15 talls? I was looking for a couple for an ato and dosing reservoirs but couldn't find them anywhere. Have you considered building a better stand with an opening big enough for whatever size sump you want to use? __________________ Shallow 80 sps grow out and a Tech 70 softie / macro / gorg seahorse play pen.

04/17/2017, 10:53 PM	#5
JZinCO Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: northern CO Posts: 502	You could fit a 15 high or an eshopps WD-100CS (15 gal) in that space. Consider the latter pre-baffled for you Perhaps you could also build a plywood sump (or two) in order to custom fit your sump(s). No need to worry about drilling thin glass in that case. Or, just re-route to elsewhere. Maybe make a box next to the stand and hide a tank inside of it of whatever size you desire. Fashion it like a storage trunk or bench for aesthetics. Just a few more ideas you may have not considered.

04/18/2017, 04:29 PM	#7
JZinCO Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: northern CO Posts: 502	OP said they have no time to build a new stand. I'd bet the best bet is to build a custom plywood tank or find a less conventional container and then add in buffles. e.g. https://agrimart.net/16-gallon-recta...FQK1wAod_0EDxQ https://www.ebay.com/p/?iid=27263493...pp=true&chn=ps

04/18/2017, 05:17 PM	#8
ru4serious Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Sikeston missouri Posts: 68	If the tank isn't set up with rock or anything else. Just drain the tank, take it off the stand and put a 20 gallon long in the stand.

04/18/2017, 07:04 PM	#10
elbowdeep29 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 52	Definitely lower baffles on that I to have a 10 gal sump on my 110gal hex all I can fit under my stand lol they are about half way up the tank and I can kill the power and not have to worry about it over flowing.

04/18/2017, 07:59 PM	#13
elbowdeep29 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 52	No but you don't have to have so much water in the tank to clear the baffles

04/18/2017, 08:00 PM	#14
elbowdeep29 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 52	Thus when power is out you have less chance to overflow. With yours up high you need more water in your sump so more likely to overflow

04/18/2017, 08:11 PM	#16
elbowdeep29 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 52	Np!

04/18/2017, 08:24 PM	#18
elbowdeep29 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 52	Crappy thing with small sumps and lower water is I have to add about 2 gallons to each day

04/18/2017, 08:25 PM	#19
elbowdeep29 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 52	Ro water^^

04/18/2017, 09:39 PM	#20
riz94107 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: San Francisco Posts: 19	definitely had some good ideas in this thread. I will probably take a multi-pronged approach of starting with the exact right amount of water (which, for some reason, I hadn't done correctly until just a few minutes ago) - If I start from the main tank drained to the overflow line and the sump as full as I'm comfortable having it, it's pretty much exactly the right amount. I don't get the benefit of a display tank as full as I'd like, but it works and I'm confident I won't get a puddle. For the medium term, I'll probably try my hand at building a very slightly larger sump custom - I have a cheap source of 1/4" glass and adding the baffles to this sump gave me more confidence in my glass-cutting skills! Longer term, I'll either build a new stand or upgrade my tank! Thanks for the all the feedback, folks!