Live Rock?

Rich1Reef · 05/04/2017, 07:21 AM

I am in the process of a new build. In my searching for methods of acid and bleach washing my rock I have come across posts about how live rock "binds" phosphate and the reactions to PH.

I know it is a natural PH buffer.

I know that it has surface area.

I know it can house denitrifying bacteria.

There are many other ways to achieve these benefits.

My question is ....... if the live rock we are using literally binds and or absorbs phosphate why are we still using it when there are many other alternatives? It seems that our entire battle of keeping SPS revolves around phosphates.

Right now I'm on the fence of where to go from here. I can clean and sell the rock or use it. If I do use it I will probably go minimal rock with MarinePure or a suitable alternative.

Am I off base here?

If I clean and wash this rock will it only be a matter of time before it becomes a liability again?

jda · 05/04/2017, 08:03 AM

It only becomes a liability if you neglect your tank and let the phosphate accumulate. Although the relationship is a bit more complex than this, think of it as binding to equilibrium with your water column. If you keep the water column low, the rock will stay low - like the ocean where aragonite rock is free of bound phosphate. If you have bad habits, then the rock will bind phosphates for a while to mask your issue, but then it will catch up with you hard as the area of the rock fills up and cannot bind any/much more.

What happens in good tanks is that the water column will build up a tiny bit with P between water changes. The rock will bind some of that for the time being. When you change water, your water column will become nearly void of P and then the rock will release a bit so that you have some. This can be very good and helpful and everything stays low. Where most people get in trouble is that they test and don't see any phosphates and they don't change any water (against all advice from the experienced folks who tell them to do it anyway) and the rock starts to accumulate... this is a slippery slope.

Acid washing only eats away the outermost layer - it will not get all of the phosphate and only a small percentage. Search for posts on "cooking rock" - this does not involve an oven and some of the people around here think that you are stupid and will actually heat it up and don't want people to use this term, but if we don't you won't be able to find the old threads. Basically, you put it in saltwater for many months while changing water and sucking the gunk out that was inside the rock. In the end, you have phosphate free, porous rock that is ready for years of service with good husbandry. It takes a while.

Real live rock from the Pacific is ready to go after it gets cured. This stuff is phosphate free, porous and very effective. Dry rock is usually bound with phosphate and also dead organics - double whammy of terrible - and can take up to two years to become as effective and is no bargain in the end. I will not put dry/dead rock in any of my tanks. Atlantic rock is mined from a quarry and put in the ocean for a while - this stuff is usually live on the outside, but not so much in the middle but can become so over time. Pacific live rock is by far the best way to go IMO.

Don't forget that the sand is also aragonite and will also bind/swap phosphates too.

Bottom line is that rock and sand is not a problem... bad habits and husbandry are the problem.

mcgyvr · 05/04/2017, 08:08 AM

IMO.. Its blown out of proportion based on a few bad experiences/bad husbandry as stated.. And that spreads like wildfire.

Bad information runs rampant

homer1475 · 05/04/2017, 08:16 AM

Totally agree with mcgyver on this one.

LR has been used in the hobby for decades with 0 problems. A couple threads started about the possibility of rock becoming phosphate sinks and the information goes viral even if it was another problem entirely(which 99% of the time it is). But as stated, bad information just keeps getting spread until its the rule.

IMO, if there was a better way, it would have been found by now. Yes we have bioballs, ceramic media, marine pure and the likes, but you still need to clean them as well, same as your LR or they will laso become phosphate/nitrate factories. With any of those mentioned, all your trying to do is have enough surface area to house beneficial bacteria.

Same principal, different media.

jda · 05/04/2017, 08:21 AM

I forgot about this in my novel above - sorry.

The P in the rock is quite helpful in low levels. The rock will grow all kinds of awesome stuff in close proximity. This close proximity will keep rock P level pretty low as the water in the rock has the P exhausted by growing bacteria and microfauna - the rock will release a bit to keep some P in the water for the growing populations.

Lastly, gunk can plug up the rock and keep it from functioning as well. You need the bacteria and microfauna to keep the rock clean. They need a bit of P to grow just like other organisms. ...sand too.

jda · 05/04/2017, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homer1475

Same principal, different media.

This is not really true. Those other media don't bind/swap phosphates and are not as effective as aragonite to the fauna living in them. They can work, but to a lesser degree IMO - how much is probably not known. This includes man-made rock and silica sand.

There is no substitute for real pacific live rock.

mcgyvr · 05/04/2017, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

There is no substitute for real pacific live rock.

Got some "beef" with the other Oceans?

I'm quite fond of my "Atlantic" live rock...

Rich1Reef · 05/04/2017, 01:11 PM

So if I stay on top of things it should be just fine.

I have some really nice pieces of rock and it would be sad to off them.

My plan is to bleach for a few days, power wash, let dry, acid bath, power wash, 8 week RO soak with weekly water changes and swishing, dry rock, scape rock, cure and seed rock in a container. Put in tank.

Does this sound like it will get it done?

jda · 05/04/2017, 01:36 PM

I think that is a horrible idea. Are they alive now? If so, just "cook" them for a few months. If you kill them, then you will be dealing with the phosphate and bound organic issues of all other dry and dead rock - it will set you back for a year or two. If they are already dead, then it won't hurt any more to do what you are saying, but there is no chance that you will get out enough organics and phosphate.

I really have nothing against Atlantic/Gulf "rock." It is not really live rock, but rather quarried stones put in the ocean for a while to get some growth. It usually comes phosphate free which is REALLY good, but it is not as established as the rock that was in the ocean for years and years like in the Pacific. If you break open a piece of good pacific rock, you will see grey and tunnels all the way through. If you break open a piece of atlantic rock, there is some of that on the outside, but the middle is white, but it gets better over the years. Atlantic rock is also very heavy and gets expensive - I have a piece of MI rock that is about the size of a basketball and weighs about 6-7 pounds... a bargain. I wish that MI rock was still available. FWIW - you used to be able to get real live rock from the Atlantic/Gulf and it was as good as pacific rock since it was in the water for long enough. If you ever see people selling Marshall Island rock, buy it in a heartbeat. I would definitely use quarried Atlantic rock if there was no rock available from the pacific.

mcgyvr · 05/04/2017, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich1Reef

My plan is to bleach for a few days, power wash, let dry, acid bath, power wash, 8 week RO soak with weekly water changes and swishing, dry rock, scape rock, cure and seed rock in a container. Put in tank.

Does this sound like it will get it done?

Do you know there is even a phosphate issue?
If not why waste all that time/energy?

I'd just put sand/rock/saltwater in the tank, fire up the powerheads/ato system and add a few flakes of fish food for a couple days to get some ammonia going and let it cycle for 4 weeks... Then start adding creatures..

homer1475 · 05/05/2017, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

This is not really true. Those other media don't bind/swap phosphates and are not as effective as aragonite to the fauna living in them. They can work, but to a lesser degree IMO - how much is probably not known. This includes man-made rock and silica sand.

There is no substitute for real pacific live rock.

I would have to totally disagree with you on this one. People have been using bioballs and/or ceramic media as a LR substitute for years with no problems.

IMO if your removing said phosphates with media(GFO or the likes) why would you worry about them binding to the rock?

I'm not disagreeing with you about totally replacing LR, but people have been using LR replacements in minimalist aquascapes for years with no problems.

Timfish · 05/05/2017, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

IMO.. Its blown out of proportion based on a few bad experiences/bad husbandry as stated.. And that spreads like wildfire.

Bad information runs rampant

+1
Here's a photo of 2 grams of food, 2 grams of "base rock" and 2 grams of sand. Which one is going to put phosphate in the water faster?

See my thread on my skimmerless system for more info but does it change your perspective on PO4 if the average on reefs is .13 mg/l and up welling may expose reefs to levels as high as 2 mg/l?

As far as live rock, it is one of the most important things to add to a reef system to set up all the cryptic sponges and "bugs" needed for a healthy system. You only need a few pounds but a quality sourced maricultured or wild live rock is absolutely essential IMO.

Rich1Reef · 05/05/2017, 10:08 PM

The rock is dead. The tank it came from had a really bad crash. Tried for months to recover the system but it never really improved. Was also vertemid snail infested. Some velvety brown algae. It was really bad. I'm just trying to save the rock. There are really some nice pieces. It has been sitting on my back deck since November through the winter and has been covered in snow a few times.

05/04/2017, 07:21 AM	#1
Rich1Reef Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 34	Live Rock? I am in the process of a new build. In my searching for methods of acid and bleach washing my rock I have come across posts about how live rock "binds" phosphate and the reactions to PH. I know it is a natural PH buffer. I know that it has surface area. I know it can house denitrifying bacteria. There are many other ways to achieve these benefits. My question is ....... if the live rock we are using literally binds and or absorbs phosphate why are we still using it when there are many other alternatives? It seems that our entire battle of keeping SPS revolves around phosphates. Right now I'm on the fence of where to go from here. I can clean and sell the rock or use it. If I do use it I will probably go minimal rock with MarinePure or a suitable alternative. Am I off base here? If I clean and wash this rock will it only be a matter of time before it becomes a liability again?

05/04/2017, 08:08 AM	#3
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	IMO.. Its blown out of proportion based on a few bad experiences/bad husbandry as stated.. And that spreads like wildfire. Bad information runs rampant __________________ Who me?

05/04/2017, 08:16 AM	#4
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	Totally agree with mcgyver on this one. LR has been used in the hobby for decades with 0 problems. A couple threads started about the possibility of rock becoming phosphate sinks and the information goes viral even if it was another problem entirely(which 99% of the time it is). But as stated, bad information just keeps getting spread until its the rule. IMO, if there was a better way, it would have been found by now. Yes we have bioballs, ceramic media, marine pure and the likes, but you still need to clean them as well, same as your LR or they will laso become phosphate/nitrate factories. With any of those mentioned, all your trying to do is have enough surface area to house beneficial bacteria. Same principal, different media. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

05/04/2017, 01:11 PM	#8
Rich1Reef Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 34	So if I stay on top of things it should be just fine. I have some really nice pieces of rock and it would be sad to off them. My plan is to bleach for a few days, power wash, let dry, acid bath, power wash, 8 week RO soak with weekly water changes and swishing, dry rock, scape rock, cure and seed rock in a container. Put in tank. Does this sound like it will get it done? __________________ We the willing led by the unknowing. Current Tank Info: 90 gal wide. Building 150 wide.

05/05/2017, 10:08 PM	#13
Rich1Reef Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 34	The rock is dead. The tank it came from had a really bad crash. Tried for months to recover the system but it never really improved. Was also vertemid snail infested. Some velvety brown algae. It was really bad. I'm just trying to save the rock. There are really some nice pieces. It has been sitting on my back deck since November through the winter and has been covered in snow a few times. __________________ We the willing led by the unknowing. Current Tank Info: 90 gal wide. Building 150 wide.

05/04/2017, 08:03 AM	#2
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	It only becomes a liability if you neglect your tank and let the phosphate accumulate. Although the relationship is a bit more complex than this, think of it as binding to equilibrium with your water column. If you keep the water column low, the rock will stay low - like the ocean where aragonite rock is free of bound phosphate. If you have bad habits, then the rock will bind phosphates for a while to mask your issue, but then it will catch up with you hard as the area of the rock fills up and cannot bind any/much more. What happens in good tanks is that the water column will build up a tiny bit with P between water changes. The rock will bind some of that for the time being. When you change water, your water column will become nearly void of P and then the rock will release a bit so that you have some. This can be very good and helpful and everything stays low. Where most people get in trouble is that they test and don't see any phosphates and they don't change any water (against all advice from the experienced folks who tell them to do it anyway) and the rock starts to accumulate... this is a slippery slope. Acid washing only eats away the outermost layer - it will not get all of the phosphate and only a small percentage. Search for posts on "cooking rock" - this does not involve an oven and some of the people around here think that you are stupid and will actually heat it up and don't want people to use this term, but if we don't you won't be able to find the old threads. Basically, you put it in saltwater for many months while changing water and sucking the gunk out that was inside the rock. In the end, you have phosphate free, porous rock that is ready for years of service with good husbandry. It takes a while. Real live rock from the Pacific is ready to go after it gets cured. This stuff is phosphate free, porous and very effective. Dry rock is usually bound with phosphate and also dead organics - double whammy of terrible - and can take up to two years to become as effective and is no bargain in the end. I will not put dry/dead rock in any of my tanks. Atlantic rock is mined from a quarry and put in the ocean for a while - this stuff is usually live on the outside, but not so much in the middle but can become so over time. Pacific live rock is by far the best way to go IMO. Don't forget that the sand is also aragonite and will also bind/swap phosphates too. Bottom line is that rock and sand is not a problem... bad habits and husbandry are the problem.

05/04/2017, 08:21 AM	#5
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	I forgot about this in my novel above - sorry. The P in the rock is quite helpful in low levels. The rock will grow all kinds of awesome stuff in close proximity. This close proximity will keep rock P level pretty low as the water in the rock has the P exhausted by growing bacteria and microfauna - the rock will release a bit to keep some P in the water for the growing populations. Lastly, gunk can plug up the rock and keep it from functioning as well. You need the bacteria and microfauna to keep the rock clean. They need a bit of P to grow just like other organisms. ...sand too.

05/04/2017, 01:36 PM	#9
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	I think that is a horrible idea. Are they alive now? If so, just "cook" them for a few months. If you kill them, then you will be dealing with the phosphate and bound organic issues of all other dry and dead rock - it will set you back for a year or two. If they are already dead, then it won't hurt any more to do what you are saying, but there is no chance that you will get out enough organics and phosphate. I really have nothing against Atlantic/Gulf "rock." It is not really live rock, but rather quarried stones put in the ocean for a while to get some growth. It usually comes phosphate free which is REALLY good, but it is not as established as the rock that was in the ocean for years and years like in the Pacific. If you break open a piece of good pacific rock, you will see grey and tunnels all the way through. If you break open a piece of atlantic rock, there is some of that on the outside, but the middle is white, but it gets better over the years. Atlantic rock is also very heavy and gets expensive - I have a piece of MI rock that is about the size of a basketball and weighs about 6-7 pounds... a bargain. I wish that MI rock was still available. FWIW - you used to be able to get real live rock from the Atlantic/Gulf and it was as good as pacific rock since it was in the water for long enough. If you ever see people selling Marshall Island rock, buy it in a heartbeat. I would definitely use quarried Atlantic rock if there was no rock available from the pacific.