imagitarium bacterial infection remedy + swim bladder disease

farfromsea · 12/01/2017, 12:10 AM

Hello all

My clownfish started acting weird about 5 days ago, unable to swim properly. At first I thought it was just him clowning around but it became evident he has some issues.

Symptoms:
Can't swim upright
Stays near surface of water
Can't eat well
Mouth seems constantly open

Environment
Sole inhabitant of 10 gallon FOWLR tank
Air bubbler + filter rated for 20 gallons (filter floss, carbon [removed for bacterial treatment now], bio-spheres)

Have had the tank setup since Feb 2017

I poked around online and got advice in a Facebook group to try Epsom salts (1/2 tablespoon dissolved in 1/2 gallon RO) as well as microbe lift Artemis marine.

Had a million things to do and no time to trek through rush hour to the LFS so I had to go to petco. They had lots of Artemis products but not the microbe lift for the reef, go figure.

So I grabbed

imagitarium bacterial infection remedy

What is this? Snake oil? Smells like antiseptic. Reef safe per the bottle.

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lmm1967 · 12/01/2017, 07:53 AM

Have you tested your water for ammonia?

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SAT · 12/01/2017, 07:55 AM

You are right to be skeptical. The likelihood that a "reef safe" medication will effectively treat a infection is low and for an internal infection is slim to none. Most such medications are placebos, better at making you feel better rather than the fish.

If your clown has an internal infection causing these symptoms, there probably isn't any practical treatment. However, these symptoms are also consistent with the gills not functioning well and the fish lacking oxygen. That could be caused by poor water quality or parasites on the gills.

I would start with a 50% water change, being careful to match the temperature and salinity. I would also increase the aeration. If you have not been testing for ammonia, now is a good time to start.

If there is something on the gills, a freshwater dip may provide some relief. You want chlorine-free water the exact same temperature as the tank. Add a bit of baking soda to buffer the pH. Make sure it has been well aerated. Leave him in for 5 minutes but remove immediately if he shows additional signs of distress. At the end of the dip, see if there are any specks on the bottom of the container that have fallen off the fish.

Good luck!

farfromsea · 12/01/2017, 09:55 PM

Thanks! I presume that it isn't an ammonia problem since that is usually deadly pretty fast. His condition has been like this for 5 days.

Will change the water and try the dip with some RODI from the store. I mix my own salt.

I can also go up to the LFS tomorrow and get the ammonia tested and grab a powerhead. I have the others just don't have ammonia tests

Do you think there is value in the Epsom salt usage?

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SAT · 12/02/2017, 06:18 AM

I would skip the Epsom salts.

Death by ammonia can be fast or slow depending on concentration. Don't rule it out until you have tested the water.

farfromsea · 12/02/2017, 09:28 AM

Okay thanks. I did add some prime when I first saw the symptoms but I suppose if there is a bunch of dead brine shrimp or something crazy it would keep producing ammonia. Will report back tonight once I do the water change+ freshwater dip+ power head addition + water testing

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Uncle99 · 12/02/2017, 04:43 PM

The hard to breath, open mouth, no eat can be the start of Ick.
Watch carefully and if you see any white spots...hypo salinity or cupramine....tons of info on this on this site. Lots of diease in fish.....it's a stress or nutritional thing.....
I never treat my fish with anything unless I can diagnos for sure.

farfromsea · 12/03/2017, 12:39 AM

Update.

No ammonia
Nitrates high (40 ppm)
No nitrites
pH WNL

Did a 50% water bath and saw my little guy has a white dot. I would gander ich but I suppose it could be flukes as well?

If ich then I contaminated my cleaning tools (siphon, small buckets, water mixing bucket). Totally brilliant move on my part obviously I was never meant to be a surgeon since I didn't have the foresight to maintain a sterile field.

How do I sterilize these things? Bleach? Vinegar? 3 days in the Texas sun?

Also attached is a pic of the clown with the prominent white dot.

Plan:

FW dip and observe for accumulation of white "crumbs" in dip container

If no crumbs treat with cupramine since I have no inverts. Will confirm dosage and duration of treatment in a bit on RC.

Anyone recognize the white dot as ich in the pic?

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farfromsea · 12/03/2017, 01:29 AM

Update on the update:

There seemed to be some flukes that fell off of the fish during the FW dip which I performed for 3 min and then rescued him and did 2 more min for certainty. (Pic attached of potential fluke). I'm unsure if it is a fluke because some accounts say they are clear and some say white so I'm confused.

Now the fish is in the tank and not swimming upside down but his mouth is still gaping. He has what appear to be clear bubbles on his body and when I returned him to the tank some slime drifted off. I imagine stress from the dip.

Intending to do a prazipro/cupramine treatment unless this is ill-advised in his weakened state? Off to the store tomorrow

Upside: white speck that was on the body in the previous pic is gone which makes me think flukes since ich is more deep but I don't think I can rule out simultaneous infections

SAT · 12/03/2017, 06:20 AM

A bad case of Ich almost always also shows up as cloudy or skeckled bits in the clear part of the fins. Lacking that, I'd go with flukes. In any case your treatment regemin should cover the parasite options.

As for contamination, Ich cysts are easily killed by bleach or hot water. However, I doubt your tools were exposed long enough for a cyst to form.

farfromsea · 12/12/2017, 07:46 PM

Thanks for your reply. I ended up reading more and seeing that cupramine is less desirable than TTM for ich treatment anyhow and looking at my fish it seems to not have ich.

I started prazipro on Sunday Dec 10 and by that I mean I provided 1/2 tsp of prazipro to my 10 gallon aquarium 1 time after removing carbon.

The sick clown is still alive. He looks on the verge of death and it is stressing me out I keep googling clownfish disease pictures but I can't place his problem. He attempts to eat but his jaw is frozen gaped open.

Other symptoms:
Sunken head (probably from starvation?)

Dorsal fin always retracted

Swims in a dysfunctional manner

Always swims at the top of the tank

Discolored body, almost grey on body behind fin but it doesn't look furry or fungal or tumorlike

Individual scales seem prominent like you can see the outline of each scale

Gills seem to stick out/flare but he also looks sallow from barely being able to eat so unsure if that is symptomatic or secondary to starvation

Feeding him reef chili since he seems to be able to scoop it in his mouth. Food excites him so he isn't a total goner.

I was so convinced it was flukes I decided to get another clown so I can treat them both for flukes at the same time and get that out of the way. The new clown has entirely different behavior (i.e. normal) and it is even more apparent to me that my sick clown has a serious problem. I know that was probably stupid to add another clown but I was thinking it would be good to prophylactically treat for flukes since they both came from the same store.

Thoughts appreciated

I was under the impression if it were brook or velvet he would be dead by now (day 14)

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farfromsea · 12/12/2017, 07:52 PM

A few pics. Trying to showcase the strange white coloring behind the fin on the body. Is it an infection? Is he just on the verge of death? Is this normal for having flukes?

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SAT · 12/13/2017, 01:12 PM

That looking more like Brooklynella to me than Ich or flukes. If so, copper probably won't work. Here's a post covering that topic:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437

Sad to say but at this point it is unlikely he will survive.

farfromsea · 12/13/2017, 01:29 PM

Thank you. He still is interested in eating and swimming so I'm going to keep trying. Can't give up!

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SAT · 12/13/2017, 01:43 PM

farfromsea · 12/14/2017, 10:52 PM

So metroplex is 70% flagyl and based on the link you sent an appropriate dose for a 10 gallon tank like mine (equated to 38L) is approximately 1300 mg or 1.3 g of *flagyl*. My vet recommended treating daily for 5 days once per day.

Anyhow the dosage recommended on the metroplex bottle was woefully small. To get the appropriate dosage of flagyl since only 70% of each quantity is the actual medication I calculated I need roughly 2g of Metroplex. I measured it out and it was ~6 imperfect scoops of Metroplex. They recommended 2 scoops/day...

I went ahead and did 6. Fish still alive. Fingers crossed.

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SAT · 12/15/2017, 07:04 AM

That sounds correct. Good luck!

12/01/2017, 12:10 AM	#1
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	imagitarium bacterial infection remedy + swim bladder disease Hello all My clownfish started acting weird about 5 days ago, unable to swim properly. At first I thought it was just him clowning around but it became evident he has some issues. Symptoms: Can't swim upright Stays near surface of water Can't eat well Mouth seems constantly open Environment Sole inhabitant of 10 gallon FOWLR tank Air bubbler + filter rated for 20 gallons (filter floss, carbon [removed for bacterial treatment now], bio-spheres) Have had the tank setup since Feb 2017 I poked around online and got advice in a Facebook group to try Epsom salts (1/2 tablespoon dissolved in 1/2 gallon RO) as well as microbe lift Artemis marine. Had a million things to do and no time to trek through rush hour to the LFS so I had to go to petco. They had lots of Artemis products but not the microbe lift for the reef, go figure. So I grabbed imagitarium bacterial infection remedy What is this? Snake oil? Smells like antiseptic. Reef safe per the bottle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/01/2017, 07:55 AM	#3
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	You are right to be skeptical. The likelihood that a "reef safe" medication will effectively treat a infection is low and for an internal infection is slim to none. Most such medications are placebos, better at making you feel better rather than the fish. If your clown has an internal infection causing these symptoms, there probably isn't any practical treatment. However, these symptoms are also consistent with the gills not functioning well and the fish lacking oxygen. That could be caused by poor water quality or parasites on the gills. I would start with a 50% water change, being careful to match the temperature and salinity. I would also increase the aeration. If you have not been testing for ammonia, now is a good time to start. If there is something on the gills, a freshwater dip may provide some relief. You want chlorine-free water the exact same temperature as the tank. Add a bit of baking soda to buffer the pH. Make sure it has been well aerated. Leave him in for 5 minutes but remove immediately if he shows additional signs of distress. At the end of the dip, see if there are any specks on the bottom of the container that have fallen off the fish. Good luck! __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/01/2017, 09:55 PM	#4
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	imagitarium bacterial infection remedy + swim bladder disease Thanks! I presume that it isn't an ammonia problem since that is usually deadly pretty fast. His condition has been like this for 5 days. Will change the water and try the dip with some RODI from the store. I mix my own salt. I can also go up to the LFS tomorrow and get the ammonia tested and grab a powerhead. I have the others just don't have ammonia tests Do you think there is value in the Epsom salt usage? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/02/2017, 06:18 AM	#5
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	I would skip the Epsom salts. Death by ammonia can be fast or slow depending on concentration. Don't rule it out until you have tested the water. __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/03/2017, 01:29 AM	#9
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	imagitarium bacterial infection remedy + swim bladder disease Update on the update: There seemed to be some flukes that fell off of the fish during the FW dip which I performed for 3 min and then rescued him and did 2 more min for certainty. (Pic attached of potential fluke). I'm unsure if it is a fluke because some accounts say they are clear and some say white so I'm confused. Now the fish is in the tank and not swimming upside down but his mouth is still gaping. He has what appear to be clear bubbles on his body and when I returned him to the tank some slime drifted off. I imagine stress from the dip. Intending to do a prazipro/cupramine treatment unless this is ill-advised in his weakened state? Off to the store tomorrow Upside: white speck that was on the body in the previous pic is gone which makes me think flukes since ich is more deep but I don't think I can rule out simultaneous infections Last edited by farfromsea; 12/03/2017 at 01:35 AM.

12/01/2017, 07:53 AM	#2
lmm1967 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 153	Have you tested your water for ammonia? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/02/2017, 09:28 AM	#6
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	Okay thanks. I did add some prime when I first saw the symptoms but I suppose if there is a bunch of dead brine shrimp or something crazy it would keep producing ammonia. Will report back tonight once I do the water change+ freshwater dip+ power head addition + water testing Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/02/2017, 04:43 PM	#7
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	The hard to breath, open mouth, no eat can be the start of Ick. Watch carefully and if you see any white spots...hypo salinity or cupramine....tons of info on this on this site. Lots of diease in fish.....it's a stress or nutritional thing..... I never treat my fish with anything unless I can diagnos for sure.

12/03/2017, 12:39 AM	#8
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	Update. No ammonia Nitrates high (40 ppm) No nitrites pH WNL Did a 50% water bath and saw my little guy has a white dot. I would gander ich but I suppose it could be flukes as well? If ich then I contaminated my cleaning tools (siphon, small buckets, water mixing bucket). Totally brilliant move on my part obviously I was never meant to be a surgeon since I didn't have the foresight to maintain a sterile field. How do I sterilize these things? Bleach? Vinegar? 3 days in the Texas sun? Also attached is a pic of the clown with the prominent white dot. Plan: FW dip and observe for accumulation of white "crumbs" in dip container If no crumbs treat with cupramine since I have no inverts. Will confirm dosage and duration of treatment in a bit on RC. Anyone recognize the white dot as ich in the pic? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/03/2017, 06:20 AM	#10
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	A bad case of Ich almost always also shows up as cloudy or skeckled bits in the clear part of the fins. Lacking that, I'd go with flukes. In any case your treatment regemin should cover the parasite options. As for contamination, Ich cysts are easily killed by bleach or hot water. However, I doubt your tools were exposed long enough for a cyst to form. __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/12/2017, 07:46 PM	#11
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	Thanks for your reply. I ended up reading more and seeing that cupramine is less desirable than TTM for ich treatment anyhow and looking at my fish it seems to not have ich. I started prazipro on Sunday Dec 10 and by that I mean I provided 1/2 tsp of prazipro to my 10 gallon aquarium 1 time after removing carbon. The sick clown is still alive. He looks on the verge of death and it is stressing me out I keep googling clownfish disease pictures but I can't place his problem. He attempts to eat but his jaw is frozen gaped open. Other symptoms: Sunken head (probably from starvation?) Dorsal fin always retracted Swims in a dysfunctional manner Always swims at the top of the tank Discolored body, almost grey on body behind fin but it doesn't look furry or fungal or tumorlike Individual scales seem prominent like you can see the outline of each scale Gills seem to stick out/flare but he also looks sallow from barely being able to eat so unsure if that is symptomatic or secondary to starvation Feeding him reef chili since he seems to be able to scoop it in his mouth. Food excites him so he isn't a total goner. I was so convinced it was flukes I decided to get another clown so I can treat them both for flukes at the same time and get that out of the way. The new clown has entirely different behavior (i.e. normal) and it is even more apparent to me that my sick clown has a serious problem. I know that was probably stupid to add another clown but I was thinking it would be good to prophylactically treat for flukes since they both came from the same store. Thoughts appreciated I was under the impression if it were brook or velvet he would be dead by now (day 14) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/12/2017, 07:52 PM	#12
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	A few pics. Trying to showcase the strange white coloring behind the fin on the body. Is it an infection? Is he just on the verge of death? Is this normal for having flukes? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/13/2017, 01:12 PM	#13
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	That looking more like Brooklynella to me than Ich or flukes. If so, copper probably won't work. Here's a post covering that topic: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437 Sad to say but at this point it is unlikely he will survive. __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/13/2017, 01:29 PM	#14
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	Thank you. He still is interested in eating and swimming so I'm going to keep trying. Can't give up! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/13/2017, 01:43 PM	#15
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	__________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/14/2017, 10:52 PM	#16
farfromsea Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 549	imagitarium bacterial infection remedy + swim bladder disease So metroplex is 70% flagyl and based on the link you sent an appropriate dose for a 10 gallon tank like mine (equated to 38L) is approximately 1300 mg or 1.3 g of flagyl. My vet recommended treating daily for 5 days once per day. Anyhow the dosage recommended on the metroplex bottle was woefully small. To get the appropriate dosage of flagyl since only 70% of each quantity is the actual medication I calculated I need roughly 2g of Metroplex. I measured it out and it was ~6 imperfect scoops of Metroplex. They recommended 2 scoops/day... I went ahead and did 6. Fish still alive. Fingers crossed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/15/2017, 07:04 AM	#17
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	That sounds correct. Good luck! __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.