firefish and gobies dieing in

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 11:01 AM

In December i purchased a tank off of craigslist that had a calurpa explosion. I got the 125G tank, stand, canopy, lights, sump, skimmer, pump, sand, and all the liverock that came with it. I also purchased an apex, and sold the T5s it came with and bought 4 kessil A360n (only three of which are currently mounted because of the way the canopy is set up and because i am going to start with softies so i dont need the 4th yet). I set it all up, threw out all the sand, and dried out and scrubbed the rock, then i filled the tank and put the rock in there by iteslf, using the dieoff on the rock as an ammonia source to season the tank. It cycled through just fine, i did a few large water changes, and once the nitrates were low enough, i added a few fish. First i added a dozen crabs, 2 dozen snails, a seahare, and a royal urchin. Then, a few days later, I added 2 barred dartfish. A few days went by, and i never saw them, so i figured a few tankmates would help get them out of hiding. I added 2 red firefish, 2 scissortail gobies, and a starry blenny to make sure the calurpa diddnt reappear. Well, the next morning i found the corpses of the two dartfish. The following morning i found the firefish and the scissortail gobies dead. I tested and found 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 12ppm nitrates. I decided the elevated nitrates meant i had a small spike and that must be what killed the fish. So i did a water change, waited a week, and added a pair of ORA TR percula clowns and 2 more firefish, along with a few zoas and a cabbage leather coral. I watched parameters testing at least once per day, twice if i felt like it, no ammonia, no nitrites, nitrates clibed up to 8ppm before i did a water change. But within a week, both firefish were dead. At this point all i have left in there is the starry blenny, been in there two weeks, and the two clowns, who have been in there a week. Also, my zoas are not opening and im not getting full extension on the cabbage leather. They are currently under 3 kessil A360N ramping to 50% power for 6 hours, then ramping back down. Parameters are as follows:

Temp: 77.9 (measured by apex probe which was callibrated to average of several digital thermometers and an infrared)
Salinity: 35ppt or 1.026sg (measured by hydrometer since apex probe is soaking)
Ph: 7.99 (apex probe and hannah digital checker)
ORP: 218 (irrelevant since it is newely installed and has no trending data, also probe not callibrated)
Ammonia: 0ppm (Api test kit, only one i have with ammonia readings)
Nitrites: 0ppm (also api)
Nitrates: 4ppm (red sea pro test kit)

Ive never had this problem cycling a tank before, something is killing the gobies off and i dont think its the 8ppm nitrates. I also dont know why my zoanthids arent opening, they arent melting, per say, but they are all closed and certainly dont look happy. Any thoughts? I have yet to get the sump up and going, because when we disassembled the tank, we had to take the bulkeads out (she glued in the plumbing) and sand and crap got in there, then i stupidly put the bulheads back on without cleaning out the holes in the glass and i think there is sand under the bulkhead making it leak. I still have yet to crawl in there, unhook it all again, clean out the holes and put it back together. But still, the only effect this has is that i have no skimmer, i should be able to keep firefish without a skimmer. Any guesses as to why all my gobies and firefish are dying?

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 11:06 AM

Accidently hit enter while editing, doh, lol. Anyways, the info i was adding is that after the first set of fish died, i also added carbon (per manufacturer instructions) in a hob filter and a nitrate reducing pad in a powerhead. I took the nitrate reducing pad off a few days ago, but im still running the carbon.

mcgyvr · 03/13/2018, 11:08 AM

The clowns could be killing the fish..

Nothing else that you have stated would be a problem at all..
Its certainly not the nitrate so you can stop worrying about that..

How are you acclimating the fish?
Any signs of disease?

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 11:25 AM

Open bucket acclimation, scooping a cup or so of water at a time over about 15 minutes. I actually helped acclimate these to the lfs water using the same method when they came in, several days before i brought them home. I dont see any signs of aggression on the firefish corpses, and they are staying out of the clowns corner, hiding under rocks on the opposite side of the tank. I also am finding all the corses, together with the fact that i dried the rock, rules out a predator like a mantis shrimp or something.

Sharpimage · 03/13/2018, 11:28 AM

Could be velvet or some other disease. Are you quarantining the fish?

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 11:31 AM

As for disease, these fish all came from two separate shipments, but from the same wholesaler and through the same lfs. They were at the LFS for several days with no signs of problems, and i dont think any of the other 12 firefish from that shipment died. The mortality rate on the entire shipment was less than 5%, i know that much.

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 11:36 AM

No, i diddnt quarentine, these were the first fish i added... i figured, "quarentine from what?"

Sharpimage · 03/13/2018, 12:56 PM

you have water movement in the tank, right? something to agitate the surface for oxygen

oldhead · 03/13/2018, 01:26 PM

My guess is you are getting your fish from the LFS at a lower salinity and you are raising it too fast. Most fish stores keep their tanks at 1.019 to 1.021. Jumping to 1.026 in a couple hours is too fast.

Sk8r · 03/13/2018, 01:35 PM

Do not expect a starry blenny to eat caulerpa. They will eat film algae. But caulerpa is toxic to most fish, possibly to the sea hare. Rabbits can eat it, but they themselves are venomous. Suggest you run carbon in that tank for a while, on general principles.

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 01:35 PM

Oldhead, i suppose this could be. So then are you reccommending i lower my salinity, or drip acclimate, or both?

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 01:39 PM

Sharpimage, yes, i have a ton of water movement, two 1200s side by side at the top of the tank, attached to sponges, makeing a gyre movement accross the top and back along the bottom. They also have airline attached with a bobber valve that lets little spurts of air in. It actually took the clowns a couple of days to adjust to the high flow since the lfs tanks have very little.

mako61 · 03/13/2018, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldhead

My guess is you are getting your fish from the LFS at a lower salinity and you are raising it too fast. Most fish stores keep their tanks at 1.019 to 1.021. Jumping to 1.026 in a couple hours is too fast.

I killed a fish by this before I learned. I started matching SG in a QT system and slowly raising SG over a few days. I did no more that .001 per day.

I find this especially important if you get fish online. After you open the shipping bag it is very important to get them out of that water quickly. I have read chemical changes happen after air exposure that damage the fish. Once I went to matching temp and SG ( before opening if possible) and quickly moving fish I have had better luck.

I think QT is also for slowly adjusting SG as well as isolation and observation.

Utter1jc · 03/13/2018, 08:31 PM

Yeah, i never even thought of this. Since i always kept my tanks at a lower salinity than this one, it was never a problem before But one of the things i wanted to try out with this tank was higher salinity, 34-35. I guess ill have to adjust my acclimation procedures to compensate.

03/13/2018, 11:01 AM	#1
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	firefish and gobies dieing in In December i purchased a tank off of craigslist that had a calurpa explosion. I got the 125G tank, stand, canopy, lights, sump, skimmer, pump, sand, and all the liverock that came with it. I also purchased an apex, and sold the T5s it came with and bought 4 kessil A360n (only three of which are currently mounted because of the way the canopy is set up and because i am going to start with softies so i dont need the 4th yet). I set it all up, threw out all the sand, and dried out and scrubbed the rock, then i filled the tank and put the rock in there by iteslf, using the dieoff on the rock as an ammonia source to season the tank. It cycled through just fine, i did a few large water changes, and once the nitrates were low enough, i added a few fish. First i added a dozen crabs, 2 dozen snails, a seahare, and a royal urchin. Then, a few days later, I added 2 barred dartfish. A few days went by, and i never saw them, so i figured a few tankmates would help get them out of hiding. I added 2 red firefish, 2 scissortail gobies, and a starry blenny to make sure the calurpa diddnt reappear. Well, the next morning i found the corpses of the two dartfish. The following morning i found the firefish and the scissortail gobies dead. I tested and found 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 12ppm nitrates. I decided the elevated nitrates meant i had a small spike and that must be what killed the fish. So i did a water change, waited a week, and added a pair of ORA TR percula clowns and 2 more firefish, along with a few zoas and a cabbage leather coral. I watched parameters testing at least once per day, twice if i felt like it, no ammonia, no nitrites, nitrates clibed up to 8ppm before i did a water change. But within a week, both firefish were dead. At this point all i have left in there is the starry blenny, been in there two weeks, and the two clowns, who have been in there a week. Also, my zoas are not opening and im not getting full extension on the cabbage leather. They are currently under 3 kessil A360N ramping to 50% power for 6 hours, then ramping back down. Parameters are as follows: Temp: 77.9 (measured by apex probe which was callibrated to average of several digital thermometers and an infrared) Salinity: 35ppt or 1.026sg (measured by hydrometer since apex probe is soaking) Ph: 7.99 (apex probe and hannah digital checker) ORP: 218 (irrelevant since it is newely installed and has no trending data, also probe not callibrated) Ammonia: 0ppm (Api test kit, only one i have with ammonia readings) Nitrites: 0ppm (also api) Nitrates: 4ppm (red sea pro test kit) Ive never had this problem cycling a tank before, something is killing the gobies off and i dont think its the 8ppm nitrates. I also dont know why my zoanthids arent opening, they arent melting, per say, but they are all closed and certainly dont look happy. Any thoughts? I have yet to get the sump up and going, because when we disassembled the tank, we had to take the bulkeads out (she glued in the plumbing) and sand and crap got in there, then i stupidly put the bulheads back on without cleaning out the holes in the glass and i think there is sand under the bulkhead making it leak. I still have yet to crawl in there, unhook it all again, clean out the holes and put it back together. But still, the only effect this has is that i have no skimmer, i should be able to keep firefish without a skimmer. Any guesses as to why all my gobies and firefish are dying?

03/13/2018, 11:08 AM	#3
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	The clowns could be killing the fish.. Nothing else that you have stated would be a problem at all.. Its certainly not the nitrate so you can stop worrying about that.. How are you acclimating the fish? Any signs of disease? __________________ Who me?

03/13/2018, 01:35 PM	#10
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Do not expect a starry blenny to eat caulerpa. They will eat film algae. But caulerpa is toxic to most fish, possibly to the sea hare. Rabbits can eat it, but they themselves are venomous. Suggest you run carbon in that tank for a while, on general principles. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/13/2018, 11:06 AM	#2
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	Accidently hit enter while editing, doh, lol. Anyways, the info i was adding is that after the first set of fish died, i also added carbon (per manufacturer instructions) in a hob filter and a nitrate reducing pad in a powerhead. I took the nitrate reducing pad off a few days ago, but im still running the carbon.

03/13/2018, 11:25 AM	#4
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	Open bucket acclimation, scooping a cup or so of water at a time over about 15 minutes. I actually helped acclimate these to the lfs water using the same method when they came in, several days before i brought them home. I dont see any signs of aggression on the firefish corpses, and they are staying out of the clowns corner, hiding under rocks on the opposite side of the tank. I also am finding all the corses, together with the fact that i dried the rock, rules out a predator like a mantis shrimp or something.

03/13/2018, 11:28 AM	#5
Sharpimage Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 324	Could be velvet or some other disease. Are you quarantining the fish?

03/13/2018, 11:31 AM	#6
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	As for disease, these fish all came from two separate shipments, but from the same wholesaler and through the same lfs. They were at the LFS for several days with no signs of problems, and i dont think any of the other 12 firefish from that shipment died. The mortality rate on the entire shipment was less than 5%, i know that much.

03/13/2018, 11:36 AM	#7
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	No, i diddnt quarentine, these were the first fish i added... i figured, "quarentine from what?"

03/13/2018, 12:56 PM	#8
Sharpimage Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 324	you have water movement in the tank, right? something to agitate the surface for oxygen

03/13/2018, 01:26 PM	#9
oldhead Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 527	My guess is you are getting your fish from the LFS at a lower salinity and you are raising it too fast. Most fish stores keep their tanks at 1.019 to 1.021. Jumping to 1.026 in a couple hours is too fast.

03/13/2018, 01:39 PM	#12
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	Sharpimage, yes, i have a ton of water movement, two 1200s side by side at the top of the tank, attached to sponges, makeing a gyre movement accross the top and back along the bottom. They also have airline attached with a bobber valve that lets little spurts of air in. It actually took the clowns a couple of days to adjust to the high flow since the lfs tanks have very little.

03/13/2018, 08:31 PM	#14
Utter1jc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 10	Yeah, i never even thought of this. Since i always kept my tanks at a lower salinity than this one, it was never a problem before But one of the things i wanted to try out with this tank was higher salinity, 34-35. I guess ill have to adjust my acclimation procedures to compensate.