Opinion on Phosphat-E from Brightwell Aquatics

[mab349]

Does anyone have experience using Phosphat-E from Brightwell Aquatics? The ingredients list doesn't indicate what's in it. I used some GFO PURA PhosLock and it caused some coral death. From what I've read this is an atypical reaction. I was thinking this product might be a good alternative to GFO to lower phosphates. Any opinions would be appreciated.

[HighlandReefer]

Phosphate E is a liquid phosphate remover.

It is most likely lanthanum chloride.

Lanthanum chloride should be dosed in front of filter of 10 microns or less in a side loop to allow the lanthanum chloride to react with phosphate and precipitate out, which then allows the filter to collect the precipitates before they are added to your tank water.

Lanthanum chloride or lanthanum carboxylate for orthophosphate
removal in seawater aquarium - a feasibility study
YING ZHANG; KAR SONG WONG
http://aalso.org/2009presentations/Z...movalPaper.pdf

[mab349]

Using lanthanum chloride sounds problematic. Have you looked into PhosphatR from Brightwell? It says it is some sort of resin material. Are there any other alternatives?

[HighlandReefer]

Your choices for phosphate reduction are basically (other than using macro-algae):

1) GFO

GFO seems to be the safest for reducing high phosphate levels.

Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO) Phosphate Binders
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm

2) Aluminum based phosphate binders

There are problems associated with aluminum as well.

Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...y2003/chem.htm

3) Lanthanum chloride

[mab349]

This particular product doesn't seem to be any of the above.

http://www.brightwellaquatics.com/pr.../phosphatr.php

[tmz]

I've used the Phospahte E. It behaves just like lanthanum chloride diluted in water. Precipitants are a problem as is clouding of the water which can harm fish and filter feeders. Careful slow and well filtered application is required. Substituting Seaklear , a pool/spa and aquarium product ,works the same and is much less costly.

Looking at the PhosphatR product write up. It seems to be some sort of resin impregnated with gfo or aluminum or vice versa. Don't know for sure since they don't say what's in it.. The regenration feature is helpful in terms of cost but gfo can be easily regenratied with a lye soution as well.

[purge43]

Im a user of the brightwell phosphatE. I drove two hours to hear mr brightwell speak at a conference but he never showed. So Im biased about his products and will never purchase any of his lines. However the phosphatE is about the only thing that works for me. Ive tried all the resins and gfo, but they just dont bring my numbers down significantly. I started using phosE sometime in january. 4 or 5 capsful a week keeps my 125g pretty close to .03. But i just started vodka dosing so things may change. I set up a diatom filter and leave it run for about an hour before I add the PhosE. The tank gets cloudy immediately after i add it to the sump. In about 2 hours the tank is perfectly clear. There doesnt seem to be any affect to lps sps or anything else. and no white cloudy accumulation on the bare bottom so far.

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Your choices for phosphate reduction are basically (other than using macro-algae):

1) GFO

GFO seems to be the safest for reducing high phosphate levels.

Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO) Phosphate Binders
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm

2) Aluminum based phosphate binders

There are problems associated with aluminum as well.

Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...y2003/chem.htm

3) Lanthanum chloride

you didn't mention carbon dosing as an alternative Cliff

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Your choices for phosphate reduction are basically (other than using macro-algae):

1) GFO

GFO seems to be the safest for reducing high phosphate levels.

Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO) Phosphate Binders
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm

2) Aluminum based phosphate binders

There are problems associated with aluminum as well.

Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...y2003/chem.htm

3) Lanthanum chloride

Good articles--thanks.
If aluminum is a soluable ion then is it removed via water changes?

[tmz]

Originally Posted by purge43

Im a user of the brightwell phosphatE. I drove two hours to hear mr brightwell speak at a conference but he never showed. So Im biased about his products and will never purchase any of his lines. However the phosphatE is about the only thing that works for me. Ive tried all the resins and gfo, but they just dont bring my numbers down significantly. I started using phosE sometime in january. 4 or 5 capsful a week keeps my 125g pretty close to .03. But i just started vodka dosing so things may change. I set up a diatom filter and leave it run for about an hour before I add the PhosE. The tank gets cloudy immediately after i add it to the sump. In about 2 hours the tank is perfectly clear. There doesnt seem to be any affect to lps sps or anything else. and no white cloudy accumulation on the bare bottom so far.

The clouding is lanthanum phospahte and lanthanum carbonate.. The lanthanum chloride disassociates in water and the free lanthanum binds with phosphate or carbonate forming a precipitant which stays in the tank but won't redissolve at normal ph reef tank levels;nonetheless the PO4 is still there and may dissove in localized low ph conditions down the road. The problems are free lanthaum which can act elsewhere and the fine cloudy precipitant. The precipitant itself may also kill mollusks, filter feeders,sponges, feather dusters ,clams and some fish by interfering with their respiration.. I've seen a medium sized tang die after being exposed to cloudy lanthanum water. If you are going to use it drip it and filter it through a sand filter or very small micron flitering media such as a small micron filter sock or a diatom filter. There are many threads on lanthanum dosing. Here is one fyi:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...thanum+cloride

[tmz]

you didn't mention carbon dosing as an alternative Clif

That's a bit beyond the scope ofthe ops question .The PhospatR is clearly not organic carbon.Besides while organic carbon dosing takes some PO4 it is primarily an NO3 reducing application and often gfo or another phosphate reducer is required along with it.
If aluminum is a soluable ion then is it removed via water changes?

Some ,yes or some might bind to an organic but by by the time either oft hese might occur the damage could already be done.

[tmz]

I should also have noted that some of the aluminum entering a tank from an aluminum oxide based PO4 adsorber might present in the tank in particluate form and settle on corals or in fish gills and irritate them.
If I had to guess I'd reckon the PhosphateR contains ferric oxide bound to a resin and not aluminum but since they don't say what's in it it's hard to know with any certainty.
I doubt it's an organic carbon source since if it were some notation regarding nitrate reduction would be there and it couldn't be regenerated.

[HighlandReefer]

Originally Posted by mab349

This particular product doesn't seem to be any of the above.

http://www.brightwellaquatics.com/pr.../phosphatr.php

This product appears to be a GFO polymer resin from what we can tell.

See this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ight=gfo+resin

This is a statement that Randy made about these type of products:

"What I'm saying is that I've not seen any reason to think it will work, but it might. I'm skeptical, but would be happy to be shown otherwise. I've also not seen anyone known to us post even anecdotal evidence that it works.

FWIW, "works" may mean different things to different people. If it bound lots of phosphate at 2 ppm, and none at 0.1 ppm, is that effective? For some folks yes, for others, no. The usual problem with such organic polymer resins is that they have high capacity for phosphate, but poor binding strength, so bind fairly little are very low phosphate concentrations (unlike GFO, which is the opposite: low capacity but high binding strength).

The applications are a bit different, but I've tried some of the best phosphate binding resins from other industries (like my sevelamer) in reef aquarium water, and it did nothing for phosphate. They are typically best (way better than GFO) for binding a lot of phosphate when there are less competing ions (like chloride and sulfate) and higher concentrations of phosphate (like 500 ppm). That's the situation where my product works (in the human GI tract).

That said, I do not know the chemical makeup of that particular resin. I could design, and have done so, very strongly binding organic polymer resins, but I wouldn't expect them to be available at a reasonable price for this application.

If anyone tries it, please let us know how it works out."

[HighlandReefer]

FWIW, if you know how to use GFO properly to reduce phosphate, it works well and can be regenerated economically. If you are concerned about possible contaminates in the GFO I would use a higher grade (HC) like sold by BRS, which is more expensive to use. Regular GFO gives you the most bang (removal of phosphate) for the bucks and works well in a marine water environment.

[five.five-six]

Is the Brightwell phosphate-e product lanthanum chloride?


I think the jury is in and lanthanum chloride is safe to use.