need help settling an argument

So Cal shaggy · 01/30/2006, 05:41 PM

Hey everyone, I need some backing. I offered to help one of my co-workers set up his first saltwater fish/invert tank. He bought the tank and dropped it off at my house almost a month ago and I started work on building a stand and plumbing the tank up the tank he chose is 60 gallons with a single return and corner overflow I told him that I had an old 60 gallon undrilled tank in my shed I could use for his sump. I finished the sump two weeks ago and the stand at the beginning last week I positioned the tanks and did a leak test both tanks passed with no problems I gave my co-worker a call and told him his system was finished and ready to go he came over picked everything up (including 80 lbs. of substrate from my old tank) and we went over to his place for setup I got everything up and running and told him that the next day on the way home from work I will meet him at my favorite aquarium shop to get him some live rock I suggested he get at least 80 lbs but more if he can. he got 80 lbs. of base rock and 30 lbs. of show rock I showed him how to build up the rock making it stable he also got some damsels and a bunch of hermit crabs but this weekend he called me and told me that one of our other co-workers came over to see his setup and told him that I had given him bad advice and that he did not need a sump that big nor did he need all that live rock for just fish and shrimp/crabs now he thinks that he does not need his sump and live rock he has been asking me if he can sell back his live rock and buy a smaller sump. I tried to explain to him that with a bigger sump he has a larger tank capacity and a more stable environment but he is very influenced by our other co-worker who by the way only has a 18 gallon tank with a canister filter and a dwarf lionfish and nothing else. I know that they both read this forum all that I am asking is that someone please explain why a bigger sump and more live rock is better my friend will not listen to me. I also told him that when he decides to upgrade to a larger tank and he will want to upgrade he will be off to a good start.

Thanks everyone,

gkarshens · 01/30/2006, 05:47 PM

I completely agree with you. The more volume the better. Any problems that may arise won't be as severe. Plus sumps are great for hiding equipment like heaters, skimmers, top-off. The only thing I might disagree with is the amount of rock. I would think you could get away with 50 lbs of base and the 30 of show. That would still be almost 1.5 lbs per gallon.

Craig Lambert · 01/30/2006, 05:47 PM

I think you gave him excellent advice. The bigger the sump the better! The tank will remain more stable, and there is no argument there. I would never want to have a tank that size without a sump. (Mainly because I would not want an HOB skimmer on a tank that size). The rock will provide excellent filtration as well. Also, from an asthetic point of view, I prefer to have heaters and probes in my sump and not in the tank.

Pandora · 01/30/2006, 05:52 PM

A lot of beginners try to go with the minimalist approach because it is cheaper and "seems" less trouble... until they really get into it and realize for themselves that hindsight can be 20/20.

The more live rock, the better... if it doesn't kill the budget, that is! The other guy has a FO (not a FOWLR), so of course he's not going to be saying it's "necessary" (it in truth isn't if you keep only fish... but corals are a different matter).

Here's something on sumps from RKM, if he wants a good reference. In truth, the size is really a personal preference, it won't make or break his tank if he has a slightly smaller sump (such as if he can't fit the other in the cabinet). But larger ones have the same advantages as larger tanks in general, and give you more room for equipment, macros, etc.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.php

For the LR issue, most people recommend 1.5-2.5lbs/gal. It's not a strict thing either, just a guideline. But if you want to have more credibility to that argument, have him pick up a book or lend him yours. The Reef Aquarium Vol 1 uses the above values. It's just for optimal nitrification, but if the guy can't afford it, that'd be a different issue.

kabboord · 01/30/2006, 05:53 PM

The more system volume, the better it is for a tank. Do you need a sump the size of your display? No. Most people's sumps are 1\2 to 1\3 the volume of their tank. Either way, forget the guy. You do all this work for him and he has the balls to complain, screw that.

Also, if all he plans on keeping are some crabs, shrimp, and some damsels, he probably doens't even need a sump. Thats a very simple system. Sure, sumps are better, but first think about the system requirements.

ddenham · 01/30/2006, 06:04 PM

Larger is better for water volume, absolutely, and more LR can't hurt, but is there room in the stand for additional stuff? Ca reactor, skimmer collection can, fuge lights, timers, powerstrips, closed loop pumps, testkits, etc? Those stands can get pretty tight even with small sumps, that's why I sent everything to the basement.

reefshadow · 01/30/2006, 06:26 PM

More volume = better water parameters. Nice to be able to hide equipment too. And he will probably eventually upgrade to a bigger system anyway (seems to always go that way). A bigger sump and extra live rock will have him ahead of the game.

Quote:

You do all this work for him and he has the balls to complain, screw that.

Agree with that, minus the language, lol. Tell him you'll accept all that live rock and the sump back in trade for your time and VERY GOOD advice.

Paintbug · 01/30/2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reefshadow
More volume = better water parameters. Nice to be able to hide equipment too. And he will probably eventually upgrade to a bigger system anyway (seems to always go that way). A bigger sump and extra live rock will have him ahead of the game.

Agree with that, minus the language, lol. Tell him you'll accept all that live rock and the sump back in trade for your time and VERY GOOD advice.

i agree! give it time, hes going to have problems and come to you again. tell him you dont know anything, and to pay the LFS to come out and fix his problems.

johnvu713 · 01/30/2006, 07:55 PM

tell your friend dont be a cheapo and definetly dont skimp on LR/equipment.

OK i was a little harsh ..my bad ;0)

SaraB · 01/30/2006, 08:14 PM

I agree, your recommendations were good. More water volume means less impact to the tank with newbie mistakes and mishaps. I have a 92 gallon tank with a 70 gallon refugium and a 70 gallon sump.

mg426 · 01/30/2006, 08:45 PM

If I am understanding this correctly. you gave him a 60 gal sump to use.you built and plumbed his stand. You gave him advice to boot. I wish You had been around when I set up my first reef. The added volume of the large sump will make his learning curve much easier. Also the amount of LR is fine, and very nessecary. He will have to make up his mind at some point as to who to take advice from. And trust me he will need it.So dont sweat the issue he always has his LFS to give him advice and sell him all of the Stuff that he dont need.

j0tca · 01/30/2006, 09:05 PM

Give him a copy of these replies. It seems to be one of the great afflictions with this hobby that people who know little claim to know alot. Your co-worker should stop giving him adivce when he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Your advice and setup sounds great. Some of the tanks here should convince him that this might be a better source than a guy with a caniser filter and a lionfish.

CW from the OC · 01/30/2006, 09:32 PM

Your advice was right on the mark. The guy who gave conflicting advice is...well....uninformed.....is that politically correct enough?

tokitay · 01/30/2006, 09:40 PM

OK, it is unanimous! You were right on with your suggested setup. A larger sump means more stability and more LR means more beneficial biologicals.

Clearly, the other guy is an uninformed rookie!!!

chucksta1 · 01/31/2006, 03:04 AM

Yeah, what they said! Call Rent-A-Friend and demand a refund!

Dave Cox · 01/31/2006, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by So Cal shaggy
... but he is very influenced by our other co-worker who by the way only has a 18 gallon tank with a canister filter and a dwarf lionfish and nothing else. Thanks everyone,

I think this line speaks volumes as to the quality of the other guys advice.

When I was younger I thought everyone was entitled to an opinion. As I get older, I realise this is not always the case.

On the evidence presented, you are right. He is wrong. Case closed.

mg426 · 01/31/2006, 04:30 AM

Rock on Dude, just wait till he needs help with his alk and ca.mabe his bud with the lion can help him with that potential disaster

pro99line · 01/31/2006, 07:06 AM

Ok I think that the way you setup the tank was the best way and defintely the way most of us would have done it but I also have to say this. The other guy is correct in telling him that he does not need such a large sump so much rock. It is not neccesary, yeas it is the best way and the right way but not neccesary to have it. So instead of trying to tell your friend why this other person is wrong "because technically they are not wrong" you need to explain why your way is the better way and will prevent him from having alot of problems and make it much easier for them to maintain the setup.

funkyman · 01/31/2006, 07:22 AM

I can't say anything that already hasn't been said, but you did a great job helping your friend get started the right way. You really shortened the learning curve for him, and saved him a lot if mistakes that most of us had to learn the hard way over time and and at great expense $$$.

I wish I would have had a friend like you when "I" got started.

nyvp · 01/31/2006, 08:40 AM

bump on all the remarks. Just say your welcome you owe me one !!!

piscivorous · 01/31/2006, 09:13 AM

Take back your sump, and tell the guy to **** off then, if he doesn't want to listen to you after all of the work you've done. Let him go and listen to the other guys advice...then once he has spent twice the cash as he would have if he had just listened to you in the first place you can come back and tell him that you told him so.

00nothing · 01/31/2006, 10:10 AM

tell the friend to get his butt on here so we can give him good tongue thrashing lol

honestly if he cant see the amount of work u put in trying to setup a proper tank for him and be thankful for it then **** on him tell him its his tank he can deal with it u are not helping anymore, I get the same kinda crap helping people with computers and thats why i stopped building them for people

J_Geisinger000 · 01/31/2006, 10:24 AM

you deffinatly gave him the right advice

I am in the same situation with one of my freinds
he woulnt take advice from me but always goes with what the lfs tells him
then when he has problems with his tank he wants me to fix it

I gave up and dont really care about what he does with his tank anymore
hey if he wants the nutrient packed algea infested water then more power to him lmoa!!

So Cal shaggy · 01/31/2006, 10:43 AM

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I am not trying to teach my friend a lesson nor do I want him to fail I am just trying to settle his mind and make him understand why I built the size sump I did and why I told him to buy the amount of live rock he did here are the reasons I gave him the advice I did:

1. I built him a 60 gal sump because I had an old 60 gal tank sitting in my shed and I knew he would be upgrading to a larger display tank in the future and he would be able to use that size sump for many size upgrades.

2. live rock amounts, the same goes for what I stated about the sump he has plenty for an upgrade.

I wanted to start this thread so that my friend will read it and hopefully understand the advice I gave him and why.

Thanks again everyone

Sindjin · 01/31/2006, 11:41 AM

I agree... you're advice was quite sound! Good job getting him on the right track. You can lead a horse to water.....

01/30/2006, 05:41 PM	#1
So Cal shaggy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Anaheim, Ca Posts: 395	need help settling an argument Hey everyone, I need some backing. I offered to help one of my co-workers set up his first saltwater fish/invert tank. He bought the tank and dropped it off at my house almost a month ago and I started work on building a stand and plumbing the tank up the tank he chose is 60 gallons with a single return and corner overflow I told him that I had an old 60 gallon undrilled tank in my shed I could use for his sump. I finished the sump two weeks ago and the stand at the beginning last week I positioned the tanks and did a leak test both tanks passed with no problems I gave my co-worker a call and told him his system was finished and ready to go he came over picked everything up (including 80 lbs. of substrate from my old tank) and we went over to his place for setup I got everything up and running and told him that the next day on the way home from work I will meet him at my favorite aquarium shop to get him some live rock I suggested he get at least 80 lbs but more if he can. he got 80 lbs. of base rock and 30 lbs. of show rock I showed him how to build up the rock making it stable he also got some damsels and a bunch of hermit crabs but this weekend he called me and told me that one of our other co-workers came over to see his setup and told him that I had given him bad advice and that he did not need a sump that big nor did he need all that live rock for just fish and shrimp/crabs now he thinks that he does not need his sump and live rock he has been asking me if he can sell back his live rock and buy a smaller sump. I tried to explain to him that with a bigger sump he has a larger tank capacity and a more stable environment but he is very influenced by our other co-worker who by the way only has a 18 gallon tank with a canister filter and a dwarf lionfish and nothing else. I know that they both read this forum all that I am asking is that someone please explain why a bigger sump and more live rock is better my friend will not listen to me. I also told him that when he decides to upgrade to a larger tank and he will want to upgrade he will be off to a good start. Thanks everyone, __________________ Thanks, Jeff "You go inside the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water, shark's in the water ... our shark. Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies . . ." Current Tank Info: 135 gal reef tank, 50 gal DIY sump

01/30/2006, 05:47 PM	#2
gkarshens Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 2,382	I completely agree with you. The more volume the better. Any problems that may arise won't be as severe. Plus sumps are great for hiding equipment like heaters, skimmers, top-off. The only thing I might disagree with is the amount of rock. I would think you could get away with 50 lbs of base and the 30 of show. That would still be almost 1.5 lbs per gallon. __________________ Gabriel It's about time!

01/30/2006, 05:47 PM	#3
Craig Lambert Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 2,897	I think you gave him excellent advice. The bigger the sump the better! The tank will remain more stable, and there is no argument there. I would never want to have a tank that size without a sump. (Mainly because I would not want an HOB skimmer on a tank that size). The rock will provide excellent filtration as well. Also, from an asthetic point of view, I prefer to have heaters and probes in my sump and not in the tank. __________________ "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will spend all day in a boat drinking beer." Current Tank Info: 75G Tank, 29G Sump, 100lbs LR, AquaC EV-180, Iwaki MD-20RT return Tunze nano streams 4X54 t-5/Icecap Ballast & SLR's 2x110 vho actinic

01/30/2006, 05:52 PM	#4
Pandora Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland near DC Posts: 1,706	A lot of beginners try to go with the minimalist approach because it is cheaper and "seems" less trouble... until they really get into it and realize for themselves that hindsight can be 20/20. The more live rock, the better... if it doesn't kill the budget, that is! The other guy has a FO (not a FOWLR), so of course he's not going to be saying it's "necessary" (it in truth isn't if you keep only fish... but corals are a different matter). Here's something on sumps from RKM, if he wants a good reference. In truth, the size is really a personal preference, it won't make or break his tank if he has a slightly smaller sump (such as if he can't fit the other in the cabinet). But larger ones have the same advantages as larger tanks in general, and give you more room for equipment, macros, etc. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.php For the LR issue, most people recommend 1.5-2.5lbs/gal. It's not a strict thing either, just a guideline. But if you want to have more credibility to that argument, have him pick up a book or lend him yours. The Reef Aquarium Vol 1 uses the above values. It's just for optimal nitrification, but if the guy can't afford it, that'd be a different issue. __________________ Where are we going... And why am I in this handbasket? Current Tank Info: 75gal reef tank, 30 gal octopus tank, Other: 75gal planted Amazon tank

01/30/2006, 05:53 PM	#5
kabboord Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: St. Pete, Florida Posts: 557	The more system volume, the better it is for a tank. Do you need a sump the size of your display? No. Most people's sumps are 1\2 to 1\3 the volume of their tank. Either way, forget the guy. You do all this work for him and he has the balls to complain, screw that. Also, if all he plans on keeping are some crabs, shrimp, and some damsels, he probably doens't even need a sump. Thats a very simple system. Sure, sumps are better, but first think about the system requirements. __________________ Where is my mind? Where is my mind? Where is my mind? Way out in the waters, see it swimmin? I was swimmin in the carribean, animals were hiding behind the rock, except the little fish... Current Tank Info: 90 Gallon Reef

01/30/2006, 06:04 PM	#6
ddenham Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 785	Larger is better for water volume, absolutely, and more LR can't hurt, but is there room in the stand for additional stuff? Ca reactor, skimmer collection can, fuge lights, timers, powerstrips, closed loop pumps, testkits, etc? Those stands can get pretty tight even with small sumps, that's why I sent everything to the basement.

01/30/2006, 07:55 PM	#9
johnvu713 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: houston Posts: 732	tell your friend dont be a cheapo and definetly dont skimp on LR/equipment. OK i was a little harsh ..my bad ;0)

01/30/2006, 08:14 PM	#10
SaraB Coral Killer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Lemont, IL Posts: 4,461	I agree, your recommendations were good. More water volume means less impact to the tank with newbie mistakes and mishaps. I have a 92 gallon tank with a 70 gallon refugium and a 70 gallon sump. __________________ Sara

01/30/2006, 08:45 PM	#11
mg426 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: maryland Posts: 6,923	If I am understanding this correctly. you gave him a 60 gal sump to use.you built and plumbed his stand. You gave him advice to boot. I wish You had been around when I set up my first reef. The added volume of the large sump will make his learning curve much easier. Also the amount of LR is fine, and very nessecary. He will have to make up his mind at some point as to who to take advice from. And trust me he will need it.So dont sweat the issue he always has his LFS to give him advice and sell him all of the Stuff that he dont need. __________________ I found a way to make a small fortune running a reef tank. Start with a large fortune. Unofficial President of the SEACLONE haters club Current Tank Info: 125 mixed reef 110 lbs LR, 1x250watt XM 20K MH 2x175watt XM 20K MH on Magetics 2X96 watt actinic PC, 220 watt VHO actinic, 30 gallon refugium, closed loop system powered by Sequence Dart MSX 200 skimmer 38 gallon sump, Oceansmotions squirt

01/30/2006, 09:05 PM	#12
j0tca Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 916	Give him a copy of these replies. It seems to be one of the great afflictions with this hobby that people who know little claim to know alot. Your co-worker should stop giving him adivce when he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Your advice and setup sounds great. Some of the tanks here should convince him that this might be a better source than a guy with a caniser filter and a lionfish.

01/30/2006, 09:32 PM	#13
CW from the OC Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 853	Your advice was right on the mark. The guy who gave conflicting advice is...well....uninformed.....is that politically correct enough? __________________ Cheers! C Dub Current Tank Info: 210 LeeMar starfire reef (7x2x2), 100 gal SoCalCreations sump, Aquacontroller 3, Geo 618 fed by Cole Parmer peri pump, ATB Large Cone , Aquatinics Constellation T5, 4 Vortecs with wireless controllers, Eheim 1262 return on a SeaSwirl

01/30/2006, 09:40 PM	#14
tokitay Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Jupiter, FL Posts: 311	OK, it is unanimous! You were right on with your suggested setup. A larger sump means more stability and more LR means more beneficial biologicals. Clearly, the other guy is an uninformed rookie!!!

01/31/2006, 03:04 AM	#15
chucksta1 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: mississauga ont. Posts: 490	Yeah, what they said! Call Rent-A-Friend and demand a refund!

01/31/2006, 04:30 AM	#17
mg426 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: maryland Posts: 6,923	Rock on Dude, just wait till he needs help with his alk and ca.mabe his bud with the lion can help him with that potential disaster __________________ I found a way to make a small fortune running a reef tank. Start with a large fortune. Unofficial President of the SEACLONE haters club Current Tank Info: 125 mixed reef 110 lbs LR, 1x250watt XM 20K MH 2x175watt XM 20K MH on Magetics 2X96 watt actinic PC, 220 watt VHO actinic, 30 gallon refugium, closed loop system powered by Sequence Dart MSX 200 skimmer 38 gallon sump, Oceansmotions squirt

01/31/2006, 07:06 AM	#18
pro99line Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Theodore, AL Posts: 280	Ok I think that the way you setup the tank was the best way and defintely the way most of us would have done it but I also have to say this. The other guy is correct in telling him that he does not need such a large sump so much rock. It is not neccesary, yeas it is the best way and the right way but not neccesary to have it. So instead of trying to tell your friend why this other person is wrong "because technically they are not wrong" you need to explain why your way is the better way and will prevent him from having alot of problems and make it much easier for them to maintain the setup.

01/31/2006, 07:22 AM	#19
funkyman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lorain, Ohio Posts: 1,811	I can't say anything that already hasn't been said, but you did a great job helping your friend get started the right way. You really shortened the learning curve for him, and saved him a lot if mistakes that most of us had to learn the hard way over time and and at great expense $$$. I wish I would have had a friend like you when "I" got started. __________________ 150 gallon mixed reef, Kessil x 3, Gyre x 2, IceCap 48XL sump, Reef Octopus Regal 200-INT skimmer.

01/31/2006, 08:40 AM	#20
nyvp Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hollywood Florida Posts: 3,633	bump on all the remarks. Just say your welcome you owe me one !!!

01/31/2006, 09:13 AM	#21
piscivorous Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Groton, N.Y. Posts: 801	Take back your sump, and tell the guy to **** off then, if he doesn't want to listen to you after all of the work you've done. Let him go and listen to the other guys advice...then once he has spent twice the cash as he would have if he had just listened to you in the first place you can come back and tell him that you told him so.

01/31/2006, 10:10 AM	#22
00nothing Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: angus, Ontario, Canada Posts: 740	tell the friend to get his butt on here so we can give him good tongue thrashing lol honestly if he cant see the amount of work u put in trying to setup a proper tank for him and be thankful for it then **** on him tell him its his tank he can deal with it u are not helping anymore, I get the same kinda crap helping people with computers and thats why i stopped building them for people

01/31/2006, 10:24 AM	#23
J_Geisinger000 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: United States P.A. Posts: 748	you deffinatly gave him the right advice I am in the same situation with one of my freinds he woulnt take advice from me but always goes with what the lfs tells him then when he has problems with his tank he wants me to fix it I gave up and dont really care about what he does with his tank anymore hey if he wants the nutrient packed algea infested water then more power to him lmoa!!

01/31/2006, 10:43 AM	#24
So Cal shaggy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Anaheim, Ca Posts: 395	Thanks for all the responses everyone. I am not trying to teach my friend a lesson nor do I want him to fail I am just trying to settle his mind and make him understand why I built the size sump I did and why I told him to buy the amount of live rock he did here are the reasons I gave him the advice I did: 1. I built him a 60 gal sump because I had an old 60 gal tank sitting in my shed and I knew he would be upgrading to a larger display tank in the future and he would be able to use that size sump for many size upgrades. 2. live rock amounts, the same goes for what I stated about the sump he has plenty for an upgrade. I wanted to start this thread so that my friend will read it and hopefully understand the advice I gave him and why. Thanks again everyone __________________ Thanks, Jeff "You go inside the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water, shark's in the water ... our shark. Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies . . ." Current Tank Info: 135 gal reef tank, 50 gal DIY sump

01/31/2006, 11:41 AM	#25
Sindjin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tampa Posts: 1,436	I agree... you're advice was quite sound! Good job getting him on the right track. You can lead a horse to water..... __________________ SeaTest Hydrometer?.... $8.00 Seachem Marine Test Kit? ...$24.00 The look on my wife's face as I'm staring out into our 35 acre lake and wondering how much salt I'll need?... Priceless. Current Tank Info: 120 gallon, DIY Stand & Canopy, 2-250w 14ks w/ 2- 110 VHO actinics, ASM G-3, 50g sump, 46x tank turnover.