Nitrates

Lifwilend · 02/02/2006, 10:13 AM

My reef tank has a terrible problem with nitrates. I have aragonite sand that has been in the tank for a year to a year in a half and about 1/3 of the tank is filled with live rock.

I am trying to figure out where the nitrates are coming from. At this point i am thinking of removing all the sand to see if the nitrate levels drop. If not then all the nitrates are probably coming from the rock.

Anybody have any advice on this subject?

NoSchwag · 02/02/2006, 10:19 AM

If I were you I would take out the sand, Cut way down on the feeding, clean your rocks really good with a baster (blow them out AND off), then let your rocks shed and clean themself off really well for like 2 months in a BB tank while keeping up on the siphoning.

Then if you want to replace the sand, replace it with a DSB.

Edit: Remove or change all filters that are not a skimmer and clean your sump.

gill7784 · 02/02/2006, 10:22 AM

Before doing anything drastic, consider the following.

Nitrates donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t "exist" in the sand or rock. Nitrates are in the water column. Now, there may be some decaying matter in the san and rock that are producing the nitrates. Consider taking a turkey-baster to your rocks and stirring the sand up a bit (unless it is a bona fide DSB).

Next, what and how much are you feeding your tank?

Are you using canister filters? Filter socks? Sponges? If the answer to any of these is yes, clean them more routinely.

Do you have a fuge with macro?

And, exactly how high is "high"? What is the PPM reading and what test are you using?

A final thought. I have gone through phases of obsessing over nitrates. I have decided in the last year or so to trust my critters and use them as a gauge of water chemistry. I honestly don't recall the last time I tested for anything other then calc and alk. If you inhabitants look good, I would say let them be. Tearing a tank apart to reduce nitrates may not be a good move if the nitrates are not causing a problem.

Take the above for what it's worth. I am just a hobbyist trying to get along as best as I can.

Lifwilend · 02/02/2006, 10:45 AM

I have held off on putting any corals in the tank. I have had this issue forever and got disgusted with and just decided to keep the fish which are 2 damsels and 1 bicolor blenny. There is 1 zoanthid which hasn't been doing very well but is still going after 3 years now. To answer your questions; nitrates read 50+. I do not have a fuge and i am cleaning my filters (foam and skimmer cup daily. I am doing water changes every two weeks. I have a 72 gallon tank and i am changing about 15 - 20 gallons each change.

REEF-DADDY · 02/02/2006, 04:01 PM

The elevated No3 levels tell me your tank is storing nutrients somewhere. Why? Because your system is not getting them out as fast as your putting them in. You really need to come up more efficient means of export. Most successful tanks whether they as BB or DSB run a lot of flow and a big skimmer. Can you list you equipment and maintenance routine for us?

stingers81 · 02/02/2006, 04:50 PM

I agree with gill

Lifwilend · 02/03/2006, 07:51 PM

SteveDohoney

Well, i had neglected water changes for a few months. I changed about 15-20 Gallons of water 2 weeks ago this sunday and plan to change another 15-20 Gallons this weekend. I have a 72 Gal bowfront tank, About 75-85 lbs of live rock (roughly 1/3 of the tank) A euro-reef protein skimmer an ultraviolet sterilizer and about 2 inches of live sand on the bottom. I only have three fish (damsels) in the tank and no coral, I want to balance the water first before I add anything else.

I have another skimmer I can add to the tank to see if that will reduce the nitrates.

The sump is bare bottom.

REEF-DADDY · 02/04/2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lifwilend
SteveDohoney

Well, i had neglected water changes for a few months. I changed about 15-20 Gallons of water 2 weeks ago this sunday and plan to change another 15-20 Gallons this weekend. I have a 72 Gal bowfront tank, About 75-85 lbs of live rock (roughly 1/3 of the tank) A euro-reef protein skimmer an ultraviolet sterilizer and about 2 inches of live sand on the bottom. I only have three fish (damsels) in the tank and no coral, I want to balance the water first before I add anything else.

I have another skimmer I can add to the tank to see if that will reduce the nitrates.

The sump is bare bottom.

I think you can beat this with a little elbow grease. Do you have any pics of you sump?

Here is where you start:

Start 10% weekly water changes, EVERY week.

Clean you skimmer and make sure your getting at least a "cup" per day of skimmate.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=723744

Get into the habit of vacuuming your sump every other day.

Look at you tank are there any areas where detrius is settling and breaking down? If so try to get more flow to those areas.
Flow is not just for corals, it keeps detrius in suspension and hopefully to your skimmer.

Regarding your sand bed. 2" is not enough for the sand bed to really help you with Nitrates. They break down in the deeper layers of sand. So you really should think of your tank as a BB in terms of husbandry. Shallow sand beds are the toughest route to go imho. DSB's will help you break down nutrients, BB tanks make them easier to remove, SSB tanks do neither. Another good Calfo thread is the remote DSB. It may be a good long term solution for you, assuming your husbandry is up to par.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ght=remote+DSB

Ramble On Rose · 02/04/2006, 09:03 AM

Have you tested the water that you are adding in your water changes? Are you using RO/DI or tap water?

jimsta · 02/04/2006, 09:29 AM

how much do you feed? And what food are you feeding?

leeweber85 · 02/04/2006, 10:00 AM

Try testing for nitrates and phostphates in your waterchange water. If you are using RO/DI have it tested, you might need
new filters.

To get get them lower, you are gonna have to do about 3 large (50% or more) spread out over a week. Reduce feeding and increase your exporting either with a better skimmer or growing macro.

Anemonebuff · 02/04/2006, 11:08 AM

I have not really been to concerned about nitrates, nor can I remember the last time I tested for them. Phosphates and silicates and Ca and Alk are all I test for now.

mikenpam · 02/04/2006, 11:59 AM

Replace your sponge. Do you use bioballs in your sump? Bioballs can become a nitrate factory from what I have read.

Uel · 02/04/2006, 12:49 PM

I had a similiar problem 4 - 5 years ago. You have gotten some good advice. I agree that the first order of business is to check your make up water before adding salt and after for nitrates and phospates. It could be your freshwater or your salt. Do this every time you make a water change until you correct or identifiy the problem. Your bioload is so low that you should be able to go "a few months w/o water changes." I have read studies that show where all the benefical denitrification takes place in the first 1 - 1 1/2 inches of the sandbed. That was a couple of years ago so I can't provide any links to back it up. I am not a big fan of sandbeds. I have a large fish load and sps corals and I could never get my phosphates under control until I removed the sand.

The only way to get your nitrates down at this point is water changes. Leeweber is right in that it will take major water changes. I had to do several large changes (as much water as I siphon out) before I was able to get nitrates under control. I think from my experiences that rock and sand can hold and leach nitrates back into the water column. I had also made the rookie mistake of adding too much too fast and the resulting over feeding. It took me almost a year to get it back under control. The central piece to my process was a denitrifier. I had one form the start, but I did not give the culture enough time betwwen additions of fish. I will never have a tank without one. I've tried everything refuigiums, DSB, no bio balls, no sponges, heavy skimming, no3 removers, and po4 removers. Today I have 0 nitrates and have not had a nitrate reading in years. I run heavy skimming, a coarse sponge, filter pad, bio balls, lots of live rock, and the denitrifier and my tank has never looked better.

I know I opened some cans of worms with the no dsb, bio balls, large water changes, and denitirfier comments. I am simpliy sharing what it took for me and what is working for me today.

mikenpam · 02/04/2006, 02:19 PM

I believe there are probably many methods that can be successful; however, the source of the nitrates must be identified. Water changes won't help if the water is the source of nitrates. I would certainly test your source of water. If it is good the water changes should reduce your nitrates as previously suggested.

02/02/2006, 10:13 AM	#1
Lifwilend Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mahwah, New Jersey Posts: 32	Nitrates My reef tank has a terrible problem with nitrates. I have aragonite sand that has been in the tank for a year to a year in a half and about 1/3 of the tank is filled with live rock. I am trying to figure out where the nitrates are coming from. At this point i am thinking of removing all the sand to see if the nitrate levels drop. If not then all the nitrates are probably coming from the rock. Anybody have any advice on this subject?

02/02/2006, 10:19 AM	#2
NoSchwag Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterbury, Ct. Posts: 2,530	If I were you I would take out the sand, Cut way down on the feeding, clean your rocks really good with a baster (blow them out AND off), then let your rocks shed and clean themself off really well for like 2 months in a BB tank while keeping up on the siphoning. Then if you want to replace the sand, replace it with a DSB. Edit: Remove or change all filters that are not a skimmer and clean your sump. __________________ Keeping low levels of po4 without chemicals since 2005. Current Tank Info: Beckett skimmed, penductor flowed, luminarc lighted, UV sterilized, litermeter dosed, Aquacontroller controlled, SPS dominated, 120 BB tank. Last edited by NoSchwag; 02/02/2006 at 10:35 AM.

02/02/2006, 04:01 PM	#5
REEF-DADDY Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: CT Posts: 3,164	The elevated No3 levels tell me your tank is storing nutrients somewhere. Why? Because your system is not getting them out as fast as your putting them in. You really need to come up more efficient means of export. Most successful tanks whether they as BB or DSB run a lot of flow and a big skimmer. Can you list you equipment and maintenance routine for us? __________________ Steve 280 Gallon BB mixed reef PM bullet 3 powered by a PCX-70,400w HQI Radiums,Tunze Wavebox,AC III Litermeter III,PCX-70 pushing 2 Eductors,Geo 624 Ca Reactor,125 sump, Dart Return Current Tank Info: 280 SPS reef

02/02/2006, 04:50 PM	#6
stingers81 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 393	I agree with gill __________________ "Success is a Journey, not a Destination". Current Tank Info: 90g, 20g sump,asm g3 skimmer, fowlr, crappy lights

02/04/2006, 10:00 AM	#11
leeweber85 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa Posts: 2,482	Try testing for nitrates and phostphates in your waterchange water. If you are using RO/DI have it tested, you might need new filters. To get get them lower, you are gonna have to do about 3 large (50% or more) spread out over a week. Reduce feeding and increase your exporting either with a better skimmer or growing macro. __________________ -Lee Current Tank Info: 120g reef, 20g reef

02/02/2006, 10:22 AM	#3
gill7784 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 77	Before doing anything drastic, consider the following. Nitrates donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t "exist" in the sand or rock. Nitrates are in the water column. Now, there may be some decaying matter in the san and rock that are producing the nitrates. Consider taking a turkey-baster to your rocks and stirring the sand up a bit (unless it is a bona fide DSB). Next, what and how much are you feeding your tank? Are you using canister filters? Filter socks? Sponges? If the answer to any of these is yes, clean them more routinely. Do you have a fuge with macro? And, exactly how high is "high"? What is the PPM reading and what test are you using? A final thought. I have gone through phases of obsessing over nitrates. I have decided in the last year or so to trust my critters and use them as a gauge of water chemistry. I honestly don't recall the last time I tested for anything other then calc and alk. If you inhabitants look good, I would say let them be. Tearing a tank apart to reduce nitrates may not be a good move if the nitrates are not causing a problem. Take the above for what it's worth. I am just a hobbyist trying to get along as best as I can.

02/02/2006, 10:45 AM	#4
Lifwilend Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mahwah, New Jersey Posts: 32	I have held off on putting any corals in the tank. I have had this issue forever and got disgusted with and just decided to keep the fish which are 2 damsels and 1 bicolor blenny. There is 1 zoanthid which hasn't been doing very well but is still going after 3 years now. To answer your questions; nitrates read 50+. I do not have a fuge and i am cleaning my filters (foam and skimmer cup daily. I am doing water changes every two weeks. I have a 72 gallon tank and i am changing about 15 - 20 gallons each change.

02/03/2006, 07:51 PM	#7
Lifwilend Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mahwah, New Jersey Posts: 32	SteveDohoney Well, i had neglected water changes for a few months. I changed about 15-20 Gallons of water 2 weeks ago this sunday and plan to change another 15-20 Gallons this weekend. I have a 72 Gal bowfront tank, About 75-85 lbs of live rock (roughly 1/3 of the tank) A euro-reef protein skimmer an ultraviolet sterilizer and about 2 inches of live sand on the bottom. I only have three fish (damsels) in the tank and no coral, I want to balance the water first before I add anything else. I have another skimmer I can add to the tank to see if that will reduce the nitrates. The sump is bare bottom.

02/04/2006, 09:03 AM	#9
Ramble On Rose Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chicago area Posts: 1,461	Have you tested the water that you are adding in your water changes? Are you using RO/DI or tap water?

02/04/2006, 09:29 AM	#10
jimsta Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 540	how much do you feed? And what food are you feeding?

02/04/2006, 11:08 AM	#12
Anemonebuff Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: LI,NY Posts: 3,877	I have not really been to concerned about nitrates, nor can I remember the last time I tested for them. Phosphates and silicates and Ca and Alk are all I test for now.

02/04/2006, 11:59 AM	#13
mikenpam Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 326	Replace your sponge. Do you use bioballs in your sump? Bioballs can become a nitrate factory from what I have read.

02/04/2006, 12:49 PM	#14
Uel Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Albany, Ga Posts: 131	I had a similiar problem 4 - 5 years ago. You have gotten some good advice. I agree that the first order of business is to check your make up water before adding salt and after for nitrates and phospates. It could be your freshwater or your salt. Do this every time you make a water change until you correct or identifiy the problem. Your bioload is so low that you should be able to go "a few months w/o water changes." I have read studies that show where all the benefical denitrification takes place in the first 1 - 1 1/2 inches of the sandbed. That was a couple of years ago so I can't provide any links to back it up. I am not a big fan of sandbeds. I have a large fish load and sps corals and I could never get my phosphates under control until I removed the sand. The only way to get your nitrates down at this point is water changes. Leeweber is right in that it will take major water changes. I had to do several large changes (as much water as I siphon out) before I was able to get nitrates under control. I think from my experiences that rock and sand can hold and leach nitrates back into the water column. I had also made the rookie mistake of adding too much too fast and the resulting over feeding. It took me almost a year to get it back under control. The central piece to my process was a denitrifier. I had one form the start, but I did not give the culture enough time betwwen additions of fish. I will never have a tank without one. I've tried everything refuigiums, DSB, no bio balls, no sponges, heavy skimming, no3 removers, and po4 removers. Today I have 0 nitrates and have not had a nitrate reading in years. I run heavy skimming, a coarse sponge, filter pad, bio balls, lots of live rock, and the denitrifier and my tank has never looked better. I know I opened some cans of worms with the no dsb, bio balls, large water changes, and denitirfier comments. I am simpliy sharing what it took for me and what is working for me today.

02/04/2006, 02:19 PM	#15
mikenpam Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 326	I believe there are probably many methods that can be successful; however, the source of the nitrates must be identified. Water changes won't help if the water is the source of nitrates. I would certainly test your source of water. If it is good the water changes should reduce your nitrates as previously suggested.