Keeping unwanted nutrients from being added

acropora213 · 02/17/2006, 08:39 AM

My question is ~

If im battling a small algae problem after a running system of over a year, how do I prevent adding more unwanted nutrients to fuel the fire ???

I'm running Phosban & Carbon constantly , and folks would think, Its possibly good to also do some water changes.
Except every new fresh batch of salt mix has many things I may not want, when trying to keep this all very nutrient poor.

I intend only on adding Kalk , Magnesium, Baking soda ( Alk dips)
cutting my photoperiod down, and no water changes , as these are the peramaters ~

pH ~ 8.3
No3 ~ < 0
Alk. ~ 3.5 these are a pretty constant reading
Ca ~ 200 when tested....
SG ~ 1.024
Temp ~ 75 - 78

Please gimme some advice on this question of " to change, or not to change" ??

Thanx Reefers

Steffish · 02/17/2006, 08:50 AM

Have you tried reducing the amount that you feed the tank? I know that is a pretty simple question, but it is one of the fastest ways to cut nutrients.

blmeier7 · 02/17/2006, 08:59 AM

"I'm running Phosban & Carbon constantly , and folks would think, Its possibly good to also do some water changes.
Except every new fresh batch of salt mix has many things I may not want, when trying to keep this all very nutrient poor."

I see what you are saying about not wanting to change the water too often because of the addition of unwanted trace elements. However, by doing frequent water changes you should be removing more "dirty water" that is feeding the algae problems rather than the trace elements feeding the algae. Interesting perspective though, I don't know if there have been studies on how much trace elements from salt go unused and fuel unwanted algaes. A lot of this will depend on your bioload as well.

Your alk and calcium both need to be raised. Are you using RO/DI water? Other than carbon and Phosban are you using any filtration, live rock, skimmer, etc...

examiner · 02/17/2006, 09:02 AM

You will never win the battle if you follow your stated course of "no water changes".

Use good water with a TDS of 0. Reduce your feeding inputs. Thaw/drain off packing water from frozen foods. A good salt mix should not add "nutrients" to your tank.

The only 2 things you put into your tank are water and food. You can control water quality via a RO/DI. Food, by definition, is a nutrient. You can attempt to minimize, as stated above, but you can't eliminate it. That's where the water change comes in.

Always remember - "the solution to pollution is dilution".

acropora213 · 02/17/2006, 09:10 AM

I have always used RO water from my home system. I may want to pickup one of those TDS meters though, as I have no clue as to when the filters need to be changed.

Sounds like im getting a thumbs up on some water changes huh
For other specifics, its a 75g , with a 20 sump , using a version of a great Euroreef skimmer, which is run very wet. I get a full cup about every two days !! There's also about 80lbs of matured rock, no fish, so feeding is not a factor, and no direct feeding of corals right now.

In july, my A/C in the house went , so the tank was cooking for two days, killing off about a grand in stock !! So in short, not much to feed in there.

acropora213 · 02/17/2006, 09:16 AM

Maybe I should start slow changes of 10gal , like every month.

I have a feeling once I get my Phosphates back down to zero, this still will not totally eradicate the problem by itself.

I stir my two inch sandbed every day to mechanically remove all detritus, and also use a toothbrush to free the crap from the rocks daily. Glad im not dealin with any kind of cyno , just macro and a little micro.
But, def. too much to continue a sps tank right now.

Also, how long can I use Phosban, before it leeches back into the water ?? Or because its 'iron based' or whatever, it will not re-release whats collected ??

Craig Lambert · 02/17/2006, 10:04 AM

What type of food are you feeding? If it is the frozen variety it needs to be soaked and strained with your RO water before going in the tank. If you don't do this, it will contribute greatly to the problem.

Dubbin1 · 02/17/2006, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acropora213
Maybe I should start slow changes of 10gal , like every month.

You should start doing 10g water changes every week. Thats what I do with mine and I have zero algae problems.

fgarvine · 02/17/2006, 10:07 AM

water changes and no flake or processed foods. Add PhosBan or something like that will help...

examiner · 02/17/2006, 10:11 AM

Phosban claims to never leech back what it takes out. I've seen no evidence to the contrary. The general use principal is when you see your readings start to edge back up...lower the flow through the reactor. This will give you a bit more theoretical "dwell time". When your readings directly out of the reactor no longer show 0, change it out.

After your unfortunate losses last summer (sorry about that!), did you do some massive water changes at that point? If not, you may still be dealing with some leftover from that incident.

I still don't understand the bias against water changes? 10g a month on a 75 will hardly make a dent in any issues you may have. And your chemistry is already somewhat out of whack, as evidenced by an extremely low CA reading.

If you insist on disturbing your sand bed daily (and it's probably not a huge deal since it's really not deep enough to quality as a DSB), I'd recommend siphoning out the gunk with one of those gravel cleaner type attachments, rather than just unleashing it into your water column. Replace what you take out with fresh SW (woohoo...a water change!).

Finally, if you are just using RO (not RO/DI), you may be using water with a TDS of anywhere from 10 (not likely) to maybe 50 or more. Most hard core SPS peeps won't put anything in their tank that shows more than 2-3, and always shoot for a TDS of 0.

acropora213 · 02/17/2006, 10:53 AM

So....

I should'nt worry about a bloom in additional Algae if a start again on these weekly water changes ??
Yes, after the " tank crash and losses " I have done a good amount of changes in volume. Actually I have still been keeping up on monthly changes, just for a minimal amount of replacement.

I've read some horror stories of combating blooms with increased changes, just finding it to be worse.
I do appreciate these opinions folks.

Dubbin ~ did you at one time have an algae problem in this system that you were just speaking of ?
Wondering because if you never had a problem, I cannot compare it as a remedy.

kevin gu3 · 02/17/2006, 11:37 AM

If you have algae then its probably caused by phosphate.

If you have phosphate then its coming from one of three places:
1) Your water supply
2) Already in your tank and now getting released into the water stream
3) Adding it thru food (OK, no food) and additives.

Get a TDS and maybe a DI filter to run RO water thru for your water. This includes evap makeup water and water changes. Some have said DI doesn't remove phosphate but I've never heard that from a reliable source (Randy Holmes-Farley for instance). That takes care of 1).

I personally do not recommend phosphate removers. The phosphate in my tank always measures 0 on a Hach test; the algae keeps it at zero and seems to take it up faster than the phosphate remover.

So the only other recommendation is nutrient export; grow some macro algae to take up some of the phosphate, and pull as much of the algae out of the tank as you can.

acropora213 · 02/17/2006, 03:11 PM

Thanks , for that input.

I'm curious as to the absorption of phosphate.

Your saying sometimes its better to let the macro do it instead of mechanical media ??

I thought the sole purpose would be to erradicate it, not feed it...

And for those on the refuge idea.... that is not an option right now for me.

02/17/2006, 08:39 AM	#1
acropora213 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New Port Richey / Tampa ~ Florida Posts: 572	Keeping unwanted nutrients from being added My question is ~ If im battling a small algae problem after a running system of over a year, how do I prevent adding more unwanted nutrients to fuel the fire ??? I'm running Phosban & Carbon constantly , and folks would think, Its possibly good to also do some water changes. Except every new fresh batch of salt mix has many things I may not want, when trying to keep this all very nutrient poor. I intend only on adding Kalk , Magnesium, Baking soda ( Alk dips) cutting my photoperiod down, and no water changes , as these are the peramaters ~ pH ~ 8.3 No3 ~ < 0 Alk. ~ 3.5 these are a pretty constant reading Ca ~ 200 when tested.... SG ~ 1.024 Temp ~ 75 - 78 Please gimme some advice on this question of " to change, or not to change" ?? Thanx Reefers

02/17/2006, 09:10 AM	#5
acropora213 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New Port Richey / Tampa ~ Florida Posts: 572	I have always used RO water from my home system. I may want to pickup one of those TDS meters though, as I have no clue as to when the filters need to be changed. Sounds like im getting a thumbs up on some water changes huh For other specifics, its a 75g , with a 20 sump , using a version of a great Euroreef skimmer, which is run very wet. I get a full cup about every two days !! There's also about 80lbs of matured rock, no fish, so feeding is not a factor, and no direct feeding of corals right now. In july, my A/C in the house went , so the tank was cooking for two days, killing off about a grand in stock !! So in short, not much to feed in there. __________________ ~ Been Gluing animals to rocks for years ~ Current Tank Info: Updating soon :)

02/17/2006, 09:16 AM	#6
acropora213 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New Port Richey / Tampa ~ Florida Posts: 572	Maybe I should start slow changes of 10gal , like every month. I have a feeling once I get my Phosphates back down to zero, this still will not totally eradicate the problem by itself. I stir my two inch sandbed every day to mechanically remove all detritus, and also use a toothbrush to free the crap from the rocks daily. Glad im not dealin with any kind of cyno , just macro and a little micro. But, def. too much to continue a sps tank right now. Also, how long can I use Phosban, before it leeches back into the water ?? Or because its 'iron based' or whatever, it will not re-release whats collected ?? __________________ ~ Been Gluing animals to rocks for years ~ Current Tank Info: Updating soon :)

02/17/2006, 10:04 AM	#7
Craig Lambert Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 2,897	What type of food are you feeding? If it is the frozen variety it needs to be soaked and strained with your RO water before going in the tank. If you don't do this, it will contribute greatly to the problem. __________________ "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will spend all day in a boat drinking beer." Current Tank Info: 75G Tank, 29G Sump, 100lbs LR, AquaC EV-180, Iwaki MD-20RT return Tunze nano streams 4X54 t-5/Icecap Ballast & SLR's 2x110 vho actinic

02/17/2006, 10:53 AM	#11
acropora213 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New Port Richey / Tampa ~ Florida Posts: 572	So.... I should'nt worry about a bloom in additional Algae if a start again on these weekly water changes ?? Yes, after the " tank crash and losses " I have done a good amount of changes in volume. Actually I have still been keeping up on monthly changes, just for a minimal amount of replacement. I've read some horror stories of combating blooms with increased changes, just finding it to be worse. I do appreciate these opinions folks. Dubbin ~ did you at one time have an algae problem in this system that you were just speaking of ? Wondering because if you never had a problem, I cannot compare it as a remedy. __________________ ~ Been Gluing animals to rocks for years ~ Current Tank Info: Updating soon :)

02/17/2006, 08:50 AM	#2
Steffish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Elgin, IL Posts: 175	Have you tried reducing the amount that you feed the tank? I know that is a pretty simple question, but it is one of the fastest ways to cut nutrients.

02/17/2006, 08:59 AM	#3
blmeier7 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Amarillo, TX Posts: 433	"I'm running Phosban & Carbon constantly , and folks would think, Its possibly good to also do some water changes. Except every new fresh batch of salt mix has many things I may not want, when trying to keep this all very nutrient poor." I see what you are saying about not wanting to change the water too often because of the addition of unwanted trace elements. However, by doing frequent water changes you should be removing more "dirty water" that is feeding the algae problems rather than the trace elements feeding the algae. Interesting perspective though, I don't know if there have been studies on how much trace elements from salt go unused and fuel unwanted algaes. A lot of this will depend on your bioload as well. Your alk and calcium both need to be raised. Are you using RO/DI water? Other than carbon and Phosban are you using any filtration, live rock, skimmer, etc...

02/17/2006, 09:02 AM	#4
examiner Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 367	You will never win the battle if you follow your stated course of "no water changes". Use good water with a TDS of 0. Reduce your feeding inputs. Thaw/drain off packing water from frozen foods. A good salt mix should not add "nutrients" to your tank. The only 2 things you put into your tank are water and food. You can control water quality via a RO/DI. Food, by definition, is a nutrient. You can attempt to minimize, as stated above, but you can't eliminate it. That's where the water change comes in. Always remember - "the solution to pollution is dilution".

02/17/2006, 10:07 AM	#9
fgarvine Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Ky Posts: 126	water changes and no flake or processed foods. Add PhosBan or something like that will help...

02/17/2006, 10:11 AM	#10
examiner Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 367	Phosban claims to never leech back what it takes out. I've seen no evidence to the contrary. The general use principal is when you see your readings start to edge back up...lower the flow through the reactor. This will give you a bit more theoretical "dwell time". When your readings directly out of the reactor no longer show 0, change it out. After your unfortunate losses last summer (sorry about that!), did you do some massive water changes at that point? If not, you may still be dealing with some leftover from that incident. I still don't understand the bias against water changes? 10g a month on a 75 will hardly make a dent in any issues you may have. And your chemistry is already somewhat out of whack, as evidenced by an extremely low CA reading. If you insist on disturbing your sand bed daily (and it's probably not a huge deal since it's really not deep enough to quality as a DSB), I'd recommend siphoning out the gunk with one of those gravel cleaner type attachments, rather than just unleashing it into your water column. Replace what you take out with fresh SW (woohoo...a water change!). Finally, if you are just using RO (not RO/DI), you may be using water with a TDS of anywhere from 10 (not likely) to maybe 50 or more. Most hard core SPS peeps won't put anything in their tank that shows more than 2-3, and always shoot for a TDS of 0.

02/17/2006, 11:37 AM	#12
kevin gu3 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Whitmore Lk, MI Posts: 732	If you have algae then its probably caused by phosphate. If you have phosphate then its coming from one of three places: 1) Your water supply 2) Already in your tank and now getting released into the water stream 3) Adding it thru food (OK, no food) and additives. Get a TDS and maybe a DI filter to run RO water thru for your water. This includes evap makeup water and water changes. Some have said DI doesn't remove phosphate but I've never heard that from a reliable source (Randy Holmes-Farley for instance). That takes care of 1). I personally do not recommend phosphate removers. The phosphate in my tank always measures 0 on a Hach test; the algae keeps it at zero and seems to take it up faster than the phosphate remover. So the only other recommendation is nutrient export; grow some macro algae to take up some of the phosphate, and pull as much of the algae out of the tank as you can. __________________ Divert all money to life support. Your wallet will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Current Tank Info: 90g reef, 29g anemone exile tank

02/17/2006, 03:11 PM	#13
acropora213 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New Port Richey / Tampa ~ Florida Posts: 572	Thanks , for that input. I'm curious as to the absorption of phosphate. Your saying sometimes its better to let the macro do it instead of mechanical media ?? I thought the sole purpose would be to erradicate it, not feed it... And for those on the refuge idea.... that is not an option right now for me. __________________ ~ Been Gluing animals to rocks for years ~ Current Tank Info: Updating soon :)