Live Sand And Rock

newsheep · 04/16/2006, 06:51 PM

I'm doing all the reading I can before I even add water to my aquarium and have a few questions about live sand and live rock I was hoping someone can help me with.

Are live sand and rock just regular sand and rock that have biological inhabitants that filter the water? If so, for cost reasons, is it possible to mix a quanity of live sand with regular sand and then have a bunch more live sand after a time, since the bacteria and snails and worms and what not would multiply into the new sand? If mixing is okay, would this kind of sand be acceptable for mixing with live sand? If not, what is another possibility?

Also, concerning live sand particle size, should the sand be ultra fine, coarse, or somewhere in between? I've read a little about anaerobic bacteria that filters out final nitrates; I think they need ultra fine sand to create the anaerobic conditions, so does all live sand need to be ultra fine?

And other than size, what are some other differences between live rock and live sand? I'm under the impression that they both do the same thing.

Thanks so much for reading all the way through this question; I know it's long. And thanks for any help anyone can give

SumpDiver · 04/16/2006, 07:39 PM

New sheep: I'm new here also, but not new to the hobby. It's true that any oceanic sand or rock you put in your system will become LIVE eventually. However, while cycling a new tank I don't think diluting the live sand with regular sand is a good idea. But perhaps you should wait for some of the forum vets chime in.

Fast Fred · 04/16/2006, 07:43 PM

That looks like it would be good sand to use. Yes, you can buy dry sand and seed it with live sand from someone elses tank. You only need a cup or two. As far as anaerobic bacteria that live in the sand, you're talking about a DSB Deep Sand Bed. A DSB is a minimum of 4-6" deep. Otherwise, it doesn't work as a denitrifier. Fine oolitic sand is best for a reef and it's creatures. some people even use Southdown Play sand from Home Depot. It's the same stuff at a fraction of the price.
I won't comment on much else about sand as I am a bare bottom guy. That's something that you may want to look into as well. It's much easier to keep clean IMO.

Live rock can aslo be done the same way. You can purchase a few live rocks and the rest as base (dry) rock. Base rock is cheaper by far. I did about 20-30% live rock and the rest base.

jdm01 · 04/16/2006, 07:44 PM

I am not much of a forum vet, but here is what I have done. In my 29g I used all live substrate. For cost reasons, with my 90G, I used a mix of live marine sand, crushed coral, and puka shells. I probably should have avoided the puka shells. The jury is out on the crushed coral. As Pat Mayo commented earlier, the more course the substrate, the more likely it to become a "crap trap". If you can afford it all live substrate is ideal. As mentioned earlier, it all becomes live eventually.

jdm01 · 04/16/2006, 07:46 PM

I used a 50/50 mix of live and base rock on my 90g. forgot to mention that earlier.

SumpDiver · 04/16/2006, 08:34 PM

jdm01 or Fast Fred:

New old guy here: Let me ask you. Do you guys know anything about the CaribSea Indo Pacific Black Live sand? I want to cycle an odd shaped (Tall cube) 50 gal with this black sand and live rock. I like the looks of it, but don't know if it is good for the first cycle.

It matches my Black acrylic stand and black leather couches.

jdm01 · 04/16/2006, 08:39 PM

I have not had any experience with that.

MBuck · 04/16/2006, 09:21 PM

I am using 150lbs of Kolorscape sand for my 125g FOWLR, bought from Walmart..it is the old "Southdown", and passed the vinegar test for saltwater tanks....

I think it was $2.86 for a 50lb bag....I will be using a few cups of sand from my community tank to seed it...

I have also used the indo pacific black/white mixed sand, it has been in my tank for about 6 months, have had no troubles with it....I also like the looks of the black sand, but was conscerned about heat issues using a metal halide...Dark colors absorb heat, and may raise your water temp...white also reflects the light better, and adds to the amount of light in your tank, just something to consider!!

I have placed about 150lbs of base rock in my 125, and about 30lbs in my 40g sump....I will be adding another 30-40lbs of good uncured live rock to that...I am in no hurry, and doing it this way has saved me hundreds of dollars! It will all eventually cover with coralline, and all the bacteria that you need, just takes a little longer to get there!

HTH!

Fast Fred · 04/16/2006, 09:35 PM

Sorry SumpDiver, I know nothign about that black sand you speak of. Sounds like an interesting topic for a thread though. Why not post it and see what kind of replies you get.

PatMayo · 04/16/2006, 09:58 PM

newsheep,

Save your money friend. This hobby takes a long time. If you don't have patience you will ultimately fail.

You can use the sand of your choice. None of it needs to be live. Your "live" rock will seed the tank and make your sand live. If you are not using a DSB, a substrate that is 4 to 6 inches deep this is especially true. As Fred said it will certainly help if you can get a cup or two of sand from another mature tank, but even that is not necessary.

Your live rock will provide all you need. You just need to provide the patience.

I hope it works out for you.

Regards,

Pat

newsheep · 04/16/2006, 10:16 PM

Thanks for everyone's help. I think I'm going to just buy the cheapest fine grained good looking sand I can find and then seed it with LR and a little bit of LS. Not in a rush or anything, so I can wait a month or two before adding anything other than rocks, sand, and salt water

04/16/2006, 06:51 PM	#1
newsheep Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 11	Live Sand And Rock I'm doing all the reading I can before I even add water to my aquarium and have a few questions about live sand and live rock I was hoping someone can help me with. Are live sand and rock just regular sand and rock that have biological inhabitants that filter the water? If so, for cost reasons, is it possible to mix a quanity of live sand with regular sand and then have a bunch more live sand after a time, since the bacteria and snails and worms and what not would multiply into the new sand? If mixing is okay, would this kind of sand be acceptable for mixing with live sand? If not, what is another possibility? Also, concerning live sand particle size, should the sand be ultra fine, coarse, or somewhere in between? I've read a little about anaerobic bacteria that filters out final nitrates; I think they need ultra fine sand to create the anaerobic conditions, so does all live sand need to be ultra fine? And other than size, what are some other differences between live rock and live sand? I'm under the impression that they both do the same thing. Thanks so much for reading all the way through this question; I know it's long. And thanks for any help anyone can give

04/16/2006, 07:39 PM	#2
SumpDiver Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Las Colinas Texas Posts: 73	New sheep: I'm new here also, but not new to the hobby. It's true that any oceanic sand or rock you put in your system will become LIVE eventually. However, while cycling a new tank I don't think diluting the live sand with regular sand is a good idea. But perhaps you should wait for some of the forum vets chime in. __________________ Jacque got it wrong: The Silent World Ain't so Silent Current Tank Info: Empty in storage: 200 gal glass, 100 gal glass 50 gal glass: Start new tanks on 04-16-06 Cycling with Live rock & Live Black sand Purchasing CPR BAK PAK2 skimmers For small tanks, large tank setup permission from Mrs. Sump is pending.

04/16/2006, 07:43 PM	#3
Fast Fred Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northfield, NJ 08225 Posts: 1,170	That looks like it would be good sand to use. Yes, you can buy dry sand and seed it with live sand from someone elses tank. You only need a cup or two. As far as anaerobic bacteria that live in the sand, you're talking about a DSB Deep Sand Bed. A DSB is a minimum of 4-6" deep. Otherwise, it doesn't work as a denitrifier. Fine oolitic sand is best for a reef and it's creatures. some people even use Southdown Play sand from Home Depot. It's the same stuff at a fraction of the price. I won't comment on much else about sand as I am a bare bottom guy. That's something that you may want to look into as well. It's much easier to keep clean IMO. Live rock can aslo be done the same way. You can purchase a few live rocks and the rest as base (dry) rock. Base rock is cheaper by far. I did about 20-30% live rock and the rest base. __________________ Ya know, for a clown fish, you're not very funny! Member of the New Jersey Reefers Club Current Tank Info: 125g Reef Ready AGA /55g Top Fin Tank for a sump/refugium/ LifeReef Skimmer/ Changing over to SPS only

04/16/2006, 07:44 PM	#4
jdm01 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Greenfield Posts: 904	I am not much of a forum vet, but here is what I have done. In my 29g I used all live substrate. For cost reasons, with my 90G, I used a mix of live marine sand, crushed coral, and puka shells. I probably should have avoided the puka shells. The jury is out on the crushed coral. As Pat Mayo commented earlier, the more course the substrate, the more likely it to become a "crap trap". If you can afford it all live substrate is ideal. As mentioned earlier, it all becomes live eventually. __________________ John Martin Current Tank Info: 29 Gallon BioCube

04/16/2006, 07:46 PM	#5
jdm01 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Greenfield Posts: 904	I used a 50/50 mix of live and base rock on my 90g. forgot to mention that earlier. __________________ John Martin Current Tank Info: 29 Gallon BioCube

04/16/2006, 08:34 PM	#6
SumpDiver Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Las Colinas Texas Posts: 73	jdm01 or Fast Fred: New old guy here: Let me ask you. Do you guys know anything about the CaribSea Indo Pacific Black Live sand? I want to cycle an odd shaped (Tall cube) 50 gal with this black sand and live rock. I like the looks of it, but don't know if it is good for the first cycle. It matches my Black acrylic stand and black leather couches. __________________ Jacque got it wrong: The Silent World Ain't so Silent Current Tank Info: Empty in storage: 200 gal glass, 100 gal glass 50 gal glass: Start new tanks on 04-16-06 Cycling with Live rock & Live Black sand Purchasing CPR BAK PAK2 skimmers For small tanks, large tank setup permission from Mrs. Sump is pending.

04/16/2006, 08:39 PM	#7
jdm01 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Greenfield Posts: 904	I have not had any experience with that. __________________ John Martin Current Tank Info: 29 Gallon BioCube

04/16/2006, 09:21 PM	#8
MBuck Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Shelby, Ohio Posts: 452	I am using 150lbs of Kolorscape sand for my 125g FOWLR, bought from Walmart..it is the old "Southdown", and passed the vinegar test for saltwater tanks.... I think it was $2.86 for a 50lb bag....I will be using a few cups of sand from my community tank to seed it... I have also used the indo pacific black/white mixed sand, it has been in my tank for about 6 months, have had no troubles with it....I also like the looks of the black sand, but was conscerned about heat issues using a metal halide...Dark colors absorb heat, and may raise your water temp...white also reflects the light better, and adds to the amount of light in your tank, just something to consider!! I have placed about 150lbs of base rock in my 125, and about 30lbs in my 40g sump....I will be adding another 30-40lbs of good uncured live rock to that...I am in no hurry, and doing it this way has saved me hundreds of dollars! It will all eventually cover with coralline, and all the bacteria that you need, just takes a little longer to get there! HTH! __________________ Marie Do not dwell on the past, improve the future!! ~ M. Current Tank Info: 180g Reef, mated pair B/W percs, 3- pajama cardinals, long-spined urchin, yellow tang, six-line wrasse, hermits, snails, 2 Chromis, LP Angel, Foxface, 2- Royal Grammas, LMB, Sailfin Tang, pink damsel.

04/16/2006, 09:35 PM	#9
Fast Fred Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northfield, NJ 08225 Posts: 1,170	Sorry SumpDiver, I know nothign about that black sand you speak of. Sounds like an interesting topic for a thread though. Why not post it and see what kind of replies you get. __________________ Ya know, for a clown fish, you're not very funny! Member of the New Jersey Reefers Club Current Tank Info: 125g Reef Ready AGA /55g Top Fin Tank for a sump/refugium/ LifeReef Skimmer/ Changing over to SPS only

04/16/2006, 09:58 PM	#10
PatMayo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,843	newsheep, Save your money friend. This hobby takes a long time. If you don't have patience you will ultimately fail. You can use the sand of your choice. None of it needs to be live. Your "live" rock will seed the tank and make your sand live. If you are not using a DSB, a substrate that is 4 to 6 inches deep this is especially true. As Fred said it will certainly help if you can get a cup or two of sand from another mature tank, but even that is not necessary. Your live rock will provide all you need. You just need to provide the patience. I hope it works out for you. Regards, Pat __________________ 90 AGA Megaflow (Setup 1-24-06) 120 Lbs. Liverock EuroReef RS 100 Skimmer 2 X 150 MH 2 X 96 watt PC Actinic 2 Clarki Clowns (31 months old) 1 Niger Trigger (Owned 6 months) 2 Tunze 6055 PH Current Tank Info: 90 AGA Megaflow To Be Mixed Reef

04/16/2006, 10:16 PM	#11
newsheep Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 11	Thanks for everyone's help. I think I'm going to just buy the cheapest fine grained good looking sand I can find and then seed it with LR and a little bit of LS. Not in a rush or anything, so I can wait a month or two before adding anything other than rocks, sand, and salt water