Singlel Vs Double Ended

_K_E_P_ · 04/26/2006, 08:16 PM

Can seem to find any clear differences between these bulbs.
What are advantages/disadvantages of these bulbs on a 250W electronic ballast? What do you use?

twon8 · 04/26/2006, 08:21 PM

i use both, and they both have their advantages and disadvantages, but either will work well on electronic.

it is the specific color of bulbs that you need to look at and then decide which form has what you are looking for. there isn't a overall better type of bulb, but without a good reflector de aren't worth it. it basically depends on what kind of bulb you have and what reflector you have/can afford. do you have room in your canopy for a big reflector? if so i suggest a lumenarc.

_K_E_P_ · 04/26/2006, 08:32 PM

Is it correct that the double ended ones don't have a UV shield so require protective glass and the single have the glass built in? Not sure where i picked that up.

Scuba_Dave · 04/26/2006, 08:33 PM

A DE bulb with the right reflector will provide a LOT more light then a mogul

I have 2 mogul & 1 DE
The DE are a PIA to change
I doubt I will ever buy another DE setup (I have 5

)

Mogul bulbs have a double glass envelope built into the bulb & do not need a UV shield

DE bulbs need a UV shield or you will kill the corals

_K_E_P_ · 04/26/2006, 08:43 PM

So

Mogul = Average light, Simple maintenance
Double = More light, More Hassle

whalloper · 04/26/2006, 10:37 PM

I have all DE...there not that big of a deal to change - just apply equal pressure to both sides and use common sense.

twon8 · 04/26/2006, 10:39 PM

the more light is not true, with a good reflector a se can put out just as much light as a de.

_K_E_P_ · 04/26/2006, 11:38 PM

so basically the same. There seems to be more range of DE than SE is that right?

lemec · 04/26/2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twon8
the more light is not true, with a good reflector a se can put out just as much light as a de.

But not the same PAR levels according to the lighting pages in here....

twon8 · 04/26/2006, 11:53 PM

what size tank is this going on?
if 24" wide, i would go with a se in a lumenarc, and you will get better coverage and more even light spread .

moonpod · 04/26/2006, 11:53 PM

It's apples and oranges. DE produces a more focused field of light. SE more dispersed. More or less light depends on bulb selection really as well as reflectors b/c the various bulb/ballast combos produce more light than other bulbs. As a generality, you can generate a higher level of light in a more limited area with DE than SE given quality reflectors.

hahnmeister · 04/27/2006, 03:16 AM

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...658#post7080658

^^^ PaulEriK posted...
"Pulse start and Double-Ended (DE) 250-watt lamps are designed better than most Single-Ended (SE) MH lamps used for aquarium lighting in North America.

European spec SE, pulse start SE and double-ended MH lamps typically have the longest useful lamp life. The inner bulbs (arc tubes) are normally filled with higher atmospheric pressure. This decreases the rate of spattering during ignition/starting and blacking of the arc tube overtime. These lamps require a ballast that is equipped with an ignitor. The higher gas pressure requires a higher ignition voltage to start them reliably.

Probe start SE lamps are known for rapid light output loss overtime. The starting method causes a lot of spattering during ignition. These lamps must have a low fill pressure to start reliably. Probe start lamps are old technology and will be phased out in the coming years in the commercial lighting field.

HQI ballasts will decrease lamp life when used with lamps not designed for them. A prefect example is the Radium 400-watt lamp. This is a European lamp but is not designed to typical specs. It is actually designed for a standard pulse start / low current ballast. Using the HQI reduces service life significantly. This is not true for the 250-watt version. The 250-watt Radium lamp is designed for a HQI ballast (ANSI M80).

HQI 250-watt ballasts are built to an ANSI M80 specification. All DE 250-watt lamps are built to this spec and only a few SE lamps are built to this spec. The M80 spec is considered a world specification.

Currently the HQI 400-watt ballasts in North America are 430-watt HPS ballasts. These are not the best choice but operate European spec 400-watt lamps (AB/BLV/Ushio 10,000K and BLV 14,000K) closer to spec than other ballasts available in North America.

I was asked to help design an improved North American 400-watt HQI ballast when 400-watt DE lamps were coming out. Unlike the current 400-watt HQI which is a Constant Wattage Autotransformer which uses a capacitor for lamp regulation it is a single core ballast with two coils (HX Ã¢â‚¬â€œ High Reactance Autotransformer) and the capacitor is used only for power factor correction. The first coil converts the voltage to 220 and uses a second coil on the same core to limit current to European specs. This is the same way a North American ANSI M80 ballast is designed. They had a few prototypes made but they havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t been released due to a low number of lamps made to this spec.

A ballast limits current to a lamp. A HQI will overdrive probe start SE lamps (most SE lamps available in North America) and other low current spec lamps with more current than they are designed for. This causes the lamp to operate at a higher temperature. The temperature increase will also increase internal operating pressure. Quartz glass softness at higher temperatures. This allows salts and metals to leach out the arc tube and also increases the rated of impurities to leach inside.

This can be seen with some lamps. The getter inside the outer bulb becomes exhausted quicker. With some lamps the getter will change color. The getter is placed between the outer and inner bulb. The getters job is to remove impurities / mainly hydrogen that will alter lamp performance.

For optimal service life lamps should be used with the ballast the lamp was designed for. Using anything else will alter performance and these other combinations are not usually tested by the lamp manufacturers so the long term performance is unknown.

When looking at tests where the wattage was measured from the input does not mean the lamp is actually being driven at that wattage. Another thing is lamps are listed by the ballast wattage (the nominal lamp wattage the ballast is designed to operate). For example look at the Radium 20,000K (Blue) lamp wattage ratings:

150-watt lamp is actually rated at 160-watts

250-watt lamp is actually rated at 270-watts

400-watt lamp is actually rated at 360-watts

The rated wattage is what wattage the ballast outputs to the lamp (when used on the designed ballast).

Note: Most manufacturers rate universal operating SE MH lamps in the vertical position. Operating them horizontally causes the arc to bow upwards and increases electrical demand. This will also change the color temperature and usually decreases light output and life. DE lamps are only rated for horizontal use and optimized for horizontal operation.

Using a ballast that under drives lamps is also not recommended by lamp manufacturers. Metal halide lamps are complex lamps. They are designed to operate within certain specifications. When a lamp is under driven the arc tube never reaches the optimal operating temperature and internal pressure. This causes some of the halides to not completely vaporize. The none vaporized halides can react with the arc tube wall altering lamp performance greatly. The decrease in operating temp/pressure can also increase the wear on the electrodes. The getter is also designed to function properly at a certain temperature.

If you look at the manufacturers specs to most of the electronic ballasts imported today you will clearly see these ballasts are not really designed to operate all types of MH lamps which people are lead to believe. These ballasts are generally designed to operate pulse start and/or probe start MH lamps. These ballasts will operate a 250-watt DE (ANSI M80) lamp like a standard pulse start (ANSI M138/M153) ballast would. In my opinion the electronic ballasts are a great alterative to probe start and pulse start magnetic ballasts."

So SE and DE are designed to be different bulbs...it isnt just a socket change.

goby1 · 04/27/2006, 04:00 AM

Thanks for the detailed post... so... do icecap solid state ballasts work for M80 spec bulbs only by chance? Does the last paragraph imply that most 250 DEs are optimum with M138 and/or M153?

Whay are there so few 400 watt DEs? I've only ever seen 3. Cheers,
G1

MiddletonMark · 04/27/2006, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lemec
But not the same PAR levels according to the lighting pages in here....

Do note that the `more light' shown in many of the light-studies is partly due to the lack of shielding used when they test DE bulbs.

I'm unsure why they're tested for PAR without the shield when folks run then with the shield, but I'm pretty sure remembering that Sanjay's tests are run like that.

Some great posts here.

_K_E_P_ · 04/27/2006, 07:57 AM

Cool thanks for all the info. It's mean

cthetoy · 04/27/2006, 10:43 AM

Go to http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/index.htm
and search perfermance data by ballast. Enter the ballast you have or want and it will sort out all the SE and DE bulbs for you. For shielded select All or both.

Its sorted from the brightest (PPFD). Also look at the CCI ratings. 10000 is white. Higher is more blue and lower is more yellow. When looking at the DE specs make sure you look at the shielded values since thats what you will be using.

I had DE but now i switched to SE since my Ice CAp ballast handles both. In energy efficient terms the SE are better than DE. I got the XM 10k 250 watts SE. Its ranked near the top in PPFD without being too yellow

PaulErik · 04/28/2006, 08:55 PM

goby1,

All Double-Ended 250-watt lamps are designed and optimized for ANSI M80 ballasts.

Most electronic and pulse start magnetic ballasts will light and operate M80 spec metal halide bulbs. The reason they can light the lamp is because they all use a high voltage pulse to ignite the lamp. The majority of electronic ballasts are designed to replace magnetic probe start (ANSI M58 250W) and pulse start (ANSI M138/M153 250W) ballasts. The only problem is ballasts built around bulbs designed to ANSI M58 and ANSI M138/M153 specifications will underdrive M80 Spec bulbs.

ANSI M58, M138 and M153 have the same operating specs (arc voltage and current) but ANSI M80 has a higher current demand with a lower operating voltage.

400-Watt DE lamps will take time or might never get popular. The problem is 400-watt DE lamps are not standardized and only a few companies manufacturer them. Currently there are two different types (electrical specifications) and 3 different bulb sizes (contact to contact measurement).

TheNaked Reefer · 04/28/2006, 10:14 PM

Paul Erik, does that mean that running DE bulbs on electronic ballasts is bad for them? ASH claims that they are fine for some reason...

PaulErik · 04/28/2006, 11:45 PM

I personally can not say how the lamp will perform over time. No long term studies have been done. The only problem is if the lamp is under driven it can increase the rate of arc tube wall blackening and the lamp may not operate as efficiently as possible.

04/26/2006, 08:16 PM	#1
_K_E_P_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 270	Singlel Vs Double Ended Can seem to find any clear differences between these bulbs. What are advantages/disadvantages of these bulbs on a 250W electronic ballast? What do you use?

04/26/2006, 08:21 PM	#2
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	i use both, and they both have their advantages and disadvantages, but either will work well on electronic. it is the specific color of bulbs that you need to look at and then decide which form has what you are looking for. there isn't a overall better type of bulb, but without a good reflector de aren't worth it. it basically depends on what kind of bulb you have and what reflector you have/can afford. do you have room in your canopy for a big reflector? if so i suggest a lumenarc. __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

04/26/2006, 10:37 PM	#6
whalloper Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 317	I have all DE...there not that big of a deal to change - just apply equal pressure to both sides and use common sense. __________________ Please let me know when they invent the device which makes water changes unnecessary and foolish... I cant wait Current Tank Info: 72 gal mixed reef (SPS acros montis stylo miles, LPS, zoos, shrooms, clams, xenia, chili) 26 gal zoo/softies/LPS reef

04/26/2006, 10:39 PM	#7
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	the more light is not true, with a good reflector a se can put out just as much light as a de. __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

04/26/2006, 11:53 PM	#10
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	what size tank is this going on? if 24" wide, i would go with a se in a lumenarc, and you will get better coverage and more even light spread . __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

04/26/2006, 08:32 PM	#3
_K_E_P_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 270	Is it correct that the double ended ones don't have a UV shield so require protective glass and the single have the glass built in? Not sure where i picked that up.

04/26/2006, 08:33 PM	#4
Scuba_Dave EMERTXE YID Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asylum, South of Boston, MA Posts: 10,362	A DE bulb with the right reflector will provide a LOT more light then a mogul I have 2 mogul & 1 DE The DE are a PIA to change I doubt I will ever buy another DE setup (I have 5 ) Mogul bulbs have a double glass envelope built into the bulb & do not need a UV shield DE bulbs need a UV shield or you will kill the corals

04/26/2006, 08:43 PM	#5
_K_E_P_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 270	So Mogul = Average light, Simple maintenance Double = More light, More Hassle

04/26/2006, 11:38 PM	#8
_K_E_P_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 270	so basically the same. There seems to be more range of DE than SE is that right?

04/26/2006, 11:53 PM	#11
moonpod Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: B.H., Los Angeles Posts: 13,053	It's apples and oranges. DE produces a more focused field of light. SE more dispersed. More or less light depends on bulb selection really as well as reflectors b/c the various bulb/ballast combos produce more light than other bulbs. As a generality, you can generate a higher level of light in a more limited area with DE than SE given quality reflectors. __________________ Excuses are just the nails for the house of failure. Current Tank Info: 32" Leemar starfire cube now empty and not quite so stinky

04/27/2006, 03:16 AM	#12
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...658#post7080658 ^^^ PaulEriK posted... "Pulse start and Double-Ended (DE) 250-watt lamps are designed better than most Single-Ended (SE) MH lamps used for aquarium lighting in North America. European spec SE, pulse start SE and double-ended MH lamps typically have the longest useful lamp life. The inner bulbs (arc tubes) are normally filled with higher atmospheric pressure. This decreases the rate of spattering during ignition/starting and blacking of the arc tube overtime. These lamps require a ballast that is equipped with an ignitor. The higher gas pressure requires a higher ignition voltage to start them reliably. Probe start SE lamps are known for rapid light output loss overtime. The starting method causes a lot of spattering during ignition. These lamps must have a low fill pressure to start reliably. Probe start lamps are old technology and will be phased out in the coming years in the commercial lighting field. HQI ballasts will decrease lamp life when used with lamps not designed for them. A prefect example is the Radium 400-watt lamp. This is a European lamp but is not designed to typical specs. It is actually designed for a standard pulse start / low current ballast. Using the HQI reduces service life significantly. This is not true for the 250-watt version. The 250-watt Radium lamp is designed for a HQI ballast (ANSI M80). HQI 250-watt ballasts are built to an ANSI M80 specification. All DE 250-watt lamps are built to this spec and only a few SE lamps are built to this spec. The M80 spec is considered a world specification. Currently the HQI 400-watt ballasts in North America are 430-watt HPS ballasts. These are not the best choice but operate European spec 400-watt lamps (AB/BLV/Ushio 10,000K and BLV 14,000K) closer to spec than other ballasts available in North America. I was asked to help design an improved North American 400-watt HQI ballast when 400-watt DE lamps were coming out. Unlike the current 400-watt HQI which is a Constant Wattage Autotransformer which uses a capacitor for lamp regulation it is a single core ballast with two coils (HX Ã¢â‚¬â€œ High Reactance Autotransformer) and the capacitor is used only for power factor correction. The first coil converts the voltage to 220 and uses a second coil on the same core to limit current to European specs. This is the same way a North American ANSI M80 ballast is designed. They had a few prototypes made but they havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t been released due to a low number of lamps made to this spec. A ballast limits current to a lamp. A HQI will overdrive probe start SE lamps (most SE lamps available in North America) and other low current spec lamps with more current than they are designed for. This causes the lamp to operate at a higher temperature. The temperature increase will also increase internal operating pressure. Quartz glass softness at higher temperatures. This allows salts and metals to leach out the arc tube and also increases the rated of impurities to leach inside. This can be seen with some lamps. The getter inside the outer bulb becomes exhausted quicker. With some lamps the getter will change color. The getter is placed between the outer and inner bulb. The getters job is to remove impurities / mainly hydrogen that will alter lamp performance. For optimal service life lamps should be used with the ballast the lamp was designed for. Using anything else will alter performance and these other combinations are not usually tested by the lamp manufacturers so the long term performance is unknown. When looking at tests where the wattage was measured from the input does not mean the lamp is actually being driven at that wattage. Another thing is lamps are listed by the ballast wattage (the nominal lamp wattage the ballast is designed to operate). For example look at the Radium 20,000K (Blue) lamp wattage ratings: 150-watt lamp is actually rated at 160-watts 250-watt lamp is actually rated at 270-watts 400-watt lamp is actually rated at 360-watts The rated wattage is what wattage the ballast outputs to the lamp (when used on the designed ballast). Note: Most manufacturers rate universal operating SE MH lamps in the vertical position. Operating them horizontally causes the arc to bow upwards and increases electrical demand. This will also change the color temperature and usually decreases light output and life. DE lamps are only rated for horizontal use and optimized for horizontal operation. Using a ballast that under drives lamps is also not recommended by lamp manufacturers. Metal halide lamps are complex lamps. They are designed to operate within certain specifications. When a lamp is under driven the arc tube never reaches the optimal operating temperature and internal pressure. This causes some of the halides to not completely vaporize. The none vaporized halides can react with the arc tube wall altering lamp performance greatly. The decrease in operating temp/pressure can also increase the wear on the electrodes. The getter is also designed to function properly at a certain temperature. If you look at the manufacturers specs to most of the electronic ballasts imported today you will clearly see these ballasts are not really designed to operate all types of MH lamps which people are lead to believe. These ballasts are generally designed to operate pulse start and/or probe start MH lamps. These ballasts will operate a 250-watt DE (ANSI M80) lamp like a standard pulse start (ANSI M138/M153) ballast would. In my opinion the electronic ballasts are a great alterative to probe start and pulse start magnetic ballasts." So SE and DE are designed to be different bulbs...it isnt just a socket change.

04/27/2006, 04:00 AM	#13
goby1 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: san francisco Posts: 364	Thanks for the detailed post... so... do icecap solid state ballasts work for M80 spec bulbs only by chance? Does the last paragraph imply that most 250 DEs are optimum with M138 and/or M153? Whay are there so few 400 watt DEs? I've only ever seen 3. Cheers, G1

04/27/2006, 07:57 AM	#15
_K_E_P_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 270	Cool thanks for all the info. It's mean __________________ 60% of the time, it works EVERY time! Current Tank Info: 500L with 90L sump; Deltec APF600; 2x IceCap 250W 14K Hamiltons; 2x 6100 1x6080 Streams

04/27/2006, 10:43 AM	#16
cthetoy Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA Posts: 1,891	Go to http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/index.htm and search perfermance data by ballast. Enter the ballast you have or want and it will sort out all the SE and DE bulbs for you. For shielded select All or both. Its sorted from the brightest (PPFD). Also look at the CCI ratings. 10000 is white. Higher is more blue and lower is more yellow. When looking at the DE specs make sure you look at the shielded values since thats what you will be using. I had DE but now i switched to SE since my Ice CAp ballast handles both. In energy efficient terms the SE are better than DE. I got the XM 10k 250 watts SE. Its ranked near the top in PPFD without being too yellow

04/28/2006, 08:55 PM	#17
PaulErik Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: North Charleston, SC Posts: 1,703	goby1, All Double-Ended 250-watt lamps are designed and optimized for ANSI M80 ballasts. Most electronic and pulse start magnetic ballasts will light and operate M80 spec metal halide bulbs. The reason they can light the lamp is because they all use a high voltage pulse to ignite the lamp. The majority of electronic ballasts are designed to replace magnetic probe start (ANSI M58 250W) and pulse start (ANSI M138/M153 250W) ballasts. The only problem is ballasts built around bulbs designed to ANSI M58 and ANSI M138/M153 specifications will underdrive M80 Spec bulbs. ANSI M58, M138 and M153 have the same operating specs (arc voltage and current) but ANSI M80 has a higher current demand with a lower operating voltage. 400-Watt DE lamps will take time or might never get popular. The problem is 400-watt DE lamps are not standardized and only a few companies manufacturer them. Currently there are two different types (electrical specifications) and 3 different bulb sizes (contact to contact measurement).

04/28/2006, 10:14 PM	#18
TheNaked Reefer Moved On Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Knightsbridge or worldwide Posts: 12	Paul Erik, does that mean that running DE bulbs on electronic ballasts is bad for them? ASH claims that they are fine for some reason...

04/28/2006, 11:45 PM	#19
PaulErik Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: North Charleston, SC Posts: 1,703	I personally can not say how the lamp will perform over time. No long term studies have been done. The only problem is if the lamp is under driven it can increase the rate of arc tube wall blackening and the lamp may not operate as efficiently as possible.