Overwhelmed!!!

GonGShoW StuNNa · 05/27/2006, 09:45 PM

Ok so I went to my lfs today to get an idea of what I'm looking at to setup a reef tank.. There are so many marine fish that I want and they all look so cool. Im all about the bright colors and my daughter wants nemo and dori..lol. I really really want a reef tank and as of now I have a 47 Gal Cichlid tank that I have had for almost a year.

Now for the overwhelmed part. I look at all the pictures of the tanks online and the tanks in the store and it just blows me away how much is involved with them. skimmers and sumps and this and that and 500 dollars worth of lighting..OMG im gettin stressed just typing this..lol.

So am I out of my league here or is this not as bad as im making it out to be? I was told by the owner of what is said to be western Canada's best fish store that I can use my Fluval 304 filter but I'll need 1 or possibly 2 powerheads..so the sump thing isnt going to effect me thank god..but its just all the rest of the things im going to need thats making me stress and thinking I might not be able to handle a reef tank..Are there any other "newbs" to reef tanks that can offer some advise?

Danfish · 05/27/2006, 10:05 PM

As someone who is on a very tight budget (but a very strong obsession) I have to say it is a bit overwhelming, but can be done.

Were taking our 65 gal in baby steps.
I add one large purchase every month, $100-$200 range.
This month it was 45 pounds of fiji live rock.
Last month it was a second powerhead and cleaning crew.
Next month it will likely be a few fish.

I'm still needing the lights (quite badly) and have a "lights fund" setup on the side to stash money in. Hopefully someday it will be big enough to get the 250watts of T5 lighting I want, or hopefully I'll run across someone looking to sell their used set cheap.
(36" wattage doesn't matter as long as its >200 total)

I feel your frustration.
Sometimes I sit in front of the tank glass looking at my near barren tank watching the lonely 3 chromis swim around and sigh knowing what it could be.
But in a way that keep you going. You know what it could be, so you can't give up now. For now things move slowly and I'll have plenty of time to research.

old salty · 05/27/2006, 10:06 PM

I too came from the freshwater community. There is much more equipment for salt water/reef tanks than for the FW. Though it may seem overwhelming at first, a lot of it has been developed through the years to make reefkeeping simpler. Take a sump for example. This does quite a few things: helps to drive off CO2 by aerating the water, adds to total water volume (more stable system), and evaporation takes place here; your tank level stays the same. You can use a sump to put lots of equipment; heaters, skimmers, phosphate reactors, etc...

I started off with a book called, "The New Marine Aquarium" by Mike Paletta. This is an excellent book that gives you a wealth of information and is well written. I read it cover to cover about a dozen times as well as scanned the reef forums and learned what others have done successfully. It may also help to check out a local reefers club in your area.

GonGShoW StuNNa · 05/27/2006, 10:14 PM

Hey I like your attitude Danfish..I to am on a fairly tight budget but the downside to that is im very impatient and when I want something I want it NOW! hehe..But yeah I sit in front of my tank and look at my 10 African Cichilds and think..when i figure this salt water thing out you guys are f****d!

And Salty thanks for the heads up on that book..I'll keep an eye out for it..did you pick it up at a book store of a pet store?

Blutowski · 05/27/2006, 10:30 PM

I guess I'm not alone in this then. I have spent the last 2 months obsessing, scheming and combing this and every other reef site on the internet trying to take as much in as I possibly can. After all of that, I figure it will take me @ 1500 to get a 55G setup with a decent fuge, lighting, DYI stand, and AGA. That also shoud be enough to also get me @ 50lbs of LR, sand and a few fish and corals. After that my first invesment will be a calcium reactor so I can expand on my corals and maybe some clams.
I know there are hidden costs that I am missing somewhere. If any experienced member would like to chime in and give me a dose of reality, I would appreciate it.

Danfish · 05/27/2006, 10:45 PM

My "To buy" list that I haven't gotten yet.
In order of to be purchased.

1) 250 watts of T5 lights.
2) RO/DI unit (we have near prestine tap water here with a VERY high concentration of calcium, limestone filtered, but I don't trust it)
3) Refugium (I might even make my own in the sump, via a rubbermaid bin)
4) Calcium reactor
5) high grade testing gear (digital pH meter, digital thermometer, refractometer)

That will take me into next year I fear.
At the rate I'm going for the lighting it may take 3 years

roper512 · 05/27/2006, 10:56 PM

Gongshow -

I understand where you're coming from.. Let me tell you something though.

Before you get started, research research research.. I have been researching reef/marine aquariums now for several years and have not even set up my first one yet (I have all the equipment, just waiting to set it up while the live rock "cooks")..

Just when you think you know enough to get started you realize that you're just beginning to scratch the surface

There's so many facets to marine aquariums and there's many ways one can be set up that it can be overwhelming.

Personally I have taken the expensive route by buying all top of the line equipment and having my tank and stand custom built. I am not rich by any means but I made it work just by putting money aside while I researched. (not having kids, car payments or pets at the moment helps as well

)

I read that you're not a very patient person and I don't mean to discourage you from this hobby but reefkeeping is definately one that requires patience

. It's the kind of thing that takes tons of time to establish but can all come crashing down in a few hours if you're not careful. It also requires patience because even once you have it all set up, a reef aquarium definately takes a long time to mature.

Because of that it's good to really have done your research before you get into all of this. Ultimately rushing will end up costing you more because you bought shoddy equipment, put livestock in your tank that's toxic or incompatible with a reef or just started dosing all sorts of stuff without really knowing much about what it does.

As far as resources I can recommend to you, reefcentral is obviously an incredible resource. There are many good books as well, here's a few that I know of:

Reef Secrets: Starting Right, Selecting Fishes & Invertebrates, Advanced Biotope Techniques - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155

The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium (Nilsen & Fossa) Volumes 1,2,3,4 (search on amazon)

The Reef Aquarium (series of 3 volumes) (Delbeek & Sprung) (search on amazon)

Aquarium Corals : Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155

Reef Invertebrates: An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibilty - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096...lance&n=283155

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155

For some more books I didn't cover you can check out this reefcentral.com link - http://reefcentral.com/books/

As with anything, take all the opinions you read here and through books, condense it all in your mind and decide what YOU'D like to do.. There are many varying opinions on many subjects with reefkeeping and it comes down to how YOU want to do it.

Take your time, do your research and you will be very happy you did

vessxpress1 · 05/27/2006, 11:00 PM

I'm also an impatient person, but most people can only do so much at one time. I started out and learned a lot just keeping SW fish to begin with for a few years. I'm glad I did. It's a lot less to worry about. I eventually got to the point where I needed to go reef tank in order to stay interested.

I didn't find this site until a guy told me about it last summer. IMO, you can find answers to all of your questions right here.

My advice is to read and plan and then read and plan some more. If you have to start out with a reef, figure out what are the requirements for everything you intend to keep and what your maintenance costs are going to be. Examples:

Depending on the TDS of your tap water, you're probably going to need an RO/DI unit. Great ones at airwaterice.com.

New filters for that once a year.
How much salt do you want to buy a month?
How much do you plan on spending on bulbs that need to be replaced once a year? (Spectrum goes out on all types after about a year or less. Metal Halides can be over 100 dollars a bulb and good power compacts go for 30-40 range a bulb)
Figure out how much electricity the system will use a month. How much more of a bill are you comfortable with?

How much in additives do you want to spend on a regular basis? For my 38 gal., 2 32 oz. bottles of Bi-onic (2 part alkalinity and calcium buffer) at 24.00 lasts about 2-3 months. The bigger you go, the quicker this stuff runs out. It usually pays to get stuff in bulk no matter what size you decide to go with.
Since last July I have over 3,400 dollars total, invested in my 38 gallon including everything and I don't have a very good skimmer and I only have dual 96 W PCs. I'm not factoring in all the livestock I lost through the learning process. I have a HOB filter, and also run a fluval 304 filled with carbon, kent nitrate sponge, phosgard and bio-rings. The tank tacks about 11.00 a month onto my electric bill plus whatever the window AC running does.
It's up to you how you want it to look and how quick you want it to look that way. It will be easier to fill a 38 gal quicker than a 75 but now I wish my 75 was set up because my 38 is too packed. There isn't room for much more. Time always leads to upgrades.
Controling the temp and topping off with fresh water every day is probably the toughest part. I'm not automated and I don't have a chiller, so it's critical to maintain room temp.

There's a lot to learn in the Reef Discussion forum. A lot of the people that really know what they're doing spend most of their time there. I think RC mainly wants to keep the basic quetions here though. I've learned a lot along the way. Just wish I would have known about this site a long time ago. The local fish stores don't always have your best interests in mind although some do.

pitt_prodigy · 05/27/2006, 11:17 PM

The initial investment in this hobby is phenominal!! I can remember the month i bought supplies very well..... for a while i couldnt walk out of the LFS without spending at least $500 and that was what i considered a good day. For what i have invested in my 72g right now.... i probably could have bought a car.... though it would be an older car, probably with high mileage!

Dont let the startup period when your bank account is dropping like enron stock scare you away. Luckily, if you do the research and buy quality stuff the first time around, you will be pleasantly surprised at the comparitive low cost of upkeep. After all the money ive spent.... i can still say that im just as hooked on this hobby as the first day i picked up a reefkeeping book. Good luck and enjoy.

vessxpress1 · 05/27/2006, 11:18 PM

You've probably heard enough from me but going from a fish only with live rock (FOWLR) tank to a reef tank is a big step.

When I had a FOWLR I had one normal, cheap flourescent tube over the tank that I never worried about the spectrum going out. All I had to buy was fish food, salt, pH buffer, and maybe an ammonia, nitrite, and pH test. Change water about once a month.

Now that it's a reef tank, I can't keep as many fish, about any coral you want at the LFS will run you 40 to 50 dollars, I have way more different types of food, better lights, numerous additives and supplements, 3 times the amount of tests in order to test for them and do water changes much more often because I'm paranoid of losing expensive livestock.

I know it may seem intimidating at first but after you get into it for a while you, and probably only you will understand what's going on. To many people, my tank and my routine with it seems mind boggling but it's really not. You know what's going on and keep schedules in the back of your head. Buy stuff in bulk so you don't have to worry about running out all the time and be prepared to buy about 200.00 worth of tests. I'd stick with salifert brand and don't mess with the swing arm hydrometers. Spring for an easy to use, 40.00 refractometer to test your salt levels. They're much quicker, less messy and more accurate. Hope this helps.

smcdonn · 05/27/2006, 11:33 PM

I was in your shoes about 6 months ago. Walked into the local fish store and was blow away with all the equipment and technical jargon they were speaking. Well now I have a 75 gallon reef and just added 100lbs of live rock that came from somebody elses tank that has been up and running for about 3 years. Let me tell you it is all worth it in the end. I don't even have any fish and it is just so cool watching the snails and little starfish. Along with the little bubble anenome, lots of flaming xenia (don't laugh I really have no idea if this is right. you know the things with fingers that are constantly opening and closing), feather dusters, etc... ITS SOOOOOOOO COOOL. I still cant get over it. I have been just sitting in front of the tank just watching everything. I have no regrets. I have spend about $2000 on this tank but is has been worth every penny. Just keep reading here on RC. This is where I learned almost everything. The knowledge here is priceless because these guys arent trying to sell you something. Go for it, you won't regret a thing

GonGShoW StuNNa · 05/27/2006, 11:56 PM

Ok well all you guys are definitely making me feel more optominstic about all this..Maybe I would be better suited starting with a fish only tank..not sure about this but can i put in live rock for a fish only setup? As long as my daughter can have her nemo and dori and i can have some sweet looking fish and learn about maintaining salt water levels along the way that might be a good start for me..Im assuming the "reef" aspect of the reef tank is just corals and anemonies? I have a 30w blue actinic bulb already so would that do for fish only?

funman1 · 05/27/2006, 11:57 PM

To Reef Central

vessxpress1 · 05/28/2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GonGShoW StuNNa
Ok well all you guys are definitely making me feel more optominstic about all this..Maybe I would be better suited starting with a fish only tank..not sure about this but can i put in live rock for a fish only setup? As long as my daughter can have her nemo and dori and i can have some sweet looking fish and learn about maintaining salt water levels along the way that might be a good start for me..Im assuming the "reef" aspect of the reef tank is just corals and anemonies? I have a 30w blue actinic bulb already so would that do for fish only?

Keep in mind that the general rule of thumb for keeping a 'dori', or Hippo tang as they're known around here, is they require a 75+ gal. tank. 75 would be about the minimum. You can buy one that's 2 inches long but eventually they can grow to 7-9"+ in a tank. They are also very susceptible to ich (the little white spot parasites that show up all over their body that they eventually can sucomb to) so water quality will be much more important in keeping a fish like that. It's really not a beginner type fish. The clown would probably be fine.

Yes, there's no problem with keeping live rock in a fish only tank, in fact it's better because the stuff acts as a natural filter to break down nitrates.

I think the term 'reef' generally refers to keeping sensitive invertebrates requiring high quality water and lighting, in addition to fish and everything else.

Be sure not to get all the fish at once. You're going to want to cycle the tank first with maybe 1 or 2 hardy fish to get the nitrogen cycle going, otherwise you'll have an ammonia spike before you know it and lose everything. It is very easy to get frustrated and lose live stock if you rush into things.

You also may want to consider a 50/50 bulb or bulbs for the tank. It will look more natural and bring out the colors more. Also keep in mind, once there's fish food and waste in there breaking down, algae can take over a tank fast! Low light or too much light can really aggrevate the problem. 30w actinic is very low light. You're really going to want to get a good hang on protein skimmer, and get those power heads in there for good flow and feed lightly. It would also help a lot if you used Kent nitrate sponge and phosgard (or something to that nature) to adsorb the nitrates and phosphates out of the water so algae can't use them to grow. You just put the stuff in a filter bag and throw the bag in a high flow area and change the media out every so often.
Algae going out of control and taking over a tank is probably one of the top reasons people get out of the hobby because people don't understand it. If you eliminate the fuel it needs to grow by feeding lightly, keeping stocking levels reasonable, protein skimming the junk out of the water before it can break down and using activated carbon and the other stuff I listed, and changing bulbs when they go bad.....you shouldn't have a problem.
The key is, don't buy stuff just because it looks cool, before you know how to care for it. You may want hermit crabs and/or shrimp to use as a clean up crew some day. These guys molt and they need iodine/iodide in the water to molt. Not enough, they wont be able to and they die. Too much and they'll molt too often and die. Get a test for it though. Don't just add it haphazardly until you understand how very concentrated it is. In FOWLR, Iodine/Iodide will not be used up very fast. A tank with soft corals will use it up fast.
Just using that as an example. There's a lot of stuff to be on top of before buying even the simplest things. I wish you luck.

lessans · 05/28/2006, 02:05 AM

First off, you don't even need fish to cycle a tank. You can use uncured live rock to cycle your tank.

Before I started my reef tank I had only a FW tank with 2 gouramis. I went straight into a reef tank and bypassed a FO or FOWLR. Reefs are so much cooler. At first I was only intimidated by saltwater tanks b/c of the cost and difficulty of maintenance, but money ended up not being an issue (for the initial startup I used Bar Mitzvah money) on my 65 gal and maintenance isn't that much more difficult than a FW tank except you don't vaccuum the substrate. To take stress off my lower back and redue the mess of a water change I do weekly water changes of 10 gal from my 65 gal tank instead of biweekly water changes of 20 gal.
***The bigger the tank, the more stable your water quality will be. That's why I chose a 65 gal tank instead of a compact and deceivingly easier to maintain 30 gal tank. Don't feel bad if you can't make up your mind about what size tank to get. It took me awhile.
***Maintaining saltwater aquariums aren't difficult if you take the time to understand the biology and chemistry behind it all, which is quite easy and interesting.
***All the tasks that people may call "chores for the tank" aren't "chores" if you understand why they are necessary. If you understand why they are necessary, then you get more hands-on involvement with the hobby. If you get to do more with this hobby, you enjoy it more, hopefully.
***Keep in mind this IS a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If you don't enjoy doing the things necessary to keep your underwater friends happy and healthy, you might consider understanding the hobby better.
***95% of this hobby is learning. The other 5% is applying what you've learned to the daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly tasks. Also, after learning, the tasks become second nature.
***Think of setting up a SW aquarium as a fun experience when you get to choose the cool equipment you'll be handling all the time , establish the surroundings your tank inhabitants will live in, and which animals are compatible with each other as opposed to a tedious and daunting experience.
***Watching corals and other things grow and multiply distracts me from being impatient by adding animals and chemicals to the tank too quickly and may do the same for you.

If any of you newbies would like any support, feel free to PM me any time. I love helping you guys.

onegreenray · 05/28/2006, 04:49 AM

The first and foremost thing is to do your research. When I started out years ago I would read and read and read on RC.

If you decided to go fish only, your current filter will work. But you will have to upgrade the light, filter system, water quality (ro unit) in the future if you go with any type of reef tank.

It also gets very expensive with all the equipment. Me personally, I have built most of my equipment for the tank. sumps, hoods, stands, etc the list goes on. if you are somewhat handy check out the do it yourself forums. there are a lot of great ideas in there to help you save money.

use RC to help with your quest for knowledge. also look and see if you have a local reef geeks club. if there is one in your area join it. you will be surprised how club members will help you along your way.

Good luck and enjoy...remember this is fun.

Blutowski · 05/28/2006, 08:56 AM

Another option I have found is to check the classifieds. In my local paper's sunday classifieds there are about 5 listings for almost complete setups for about a 3rd of the price of starting from scratch. One lisiting had a 170G+ setup complete with LR and LS for @ $1400. It's not quite the same as buiding your own setup, but it really will take the bite out that initiall hit on the kids college fund.
This is the way I'm going to go once I have my finances in order.

roper512 · 05/28/2006, 10:02 AM

Definately a good way of going about it! Fish only will for sure remove some of the complexities..

Fish (for the most part) are much more tolerant of swings in water chemistry than certain corals or invertibrates..

Corals and some inverts raise the bar when it comes to keeping your water paramters rock solid and making sure you have ample amounts of certain trace elements. The other thing is that corals aren't just little pieces of art either, they're savage! They will compete for space with other corals if it gets too crowded and many use chemical warfare or stinging tentacles to do this, which can mess up your tanks parameters..

If you want a tank with nemo and dori I recommend getting a tank that will accomodate dori.. Don't cramp her too much, they will grow and you need ample space for a tang, despite what you might see on these forums, some people have small tanks and toss in a baby tang and think it's all right, and for the time being it might be. But honestly down the road it's best to give it to someone with a larger setup or an LFS.

Here's a good chart to get a rough idea of what fish groups are compatible with which:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/c...lity_chart.cfm

Quote:

Originally posted by GonGShoW StuNNa
Ok well all you guys are definitely making me feel more optominstic about all this..Maybe I would be better suited starting with a fish only tank..not sure about this but can i put in live rock for a fish only setup? As long as my daughter can have her nemo and dori and i can have some sweet looking fish and learn about maintaining salt water levels along the way that might be a good start for me..Im assuming the "reef" aspect of the reef tank is just corals and anemonies? I have a 30w blue actinic bulb already so would that do for fish only?

GonGShoW StuNNa · 05/28/2006, 10:07 AM

Well I just wanna say I really appreciate all the advise you guys have taken the time to give me..I'm going to hit up my lfs today and get a list of everything i need together..

Sk8r · 05/28/2006, 10:37 AM

gongshow, you can upgrade a few aspects of the system and give yourself a few mushrooms...take a look at some mushroom tanks, and you'll be amazed at the color and motion.
If you think you might be tempted in that direction, definitely consider fish behavior.
Anemones are cranky creatures, requiring very good water and a mature tank, but if you wait long enough, you can get a 'nem tank going and they can be drop-dead gorgeous.

PS: my lfs sells nice frags at 30 dollars. I guess we get a good deal.

05/27/2006, 09:45 PM	#1
GonGShoW StuNNa Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 12	Overwhelmed!!! Ok so I went to my lfs today to get an idea of what I'm looking at to setup a reef tank.. There are so many marine fish that I want and they all look so cool. Im all about the bright colors and my daughter wants nemo and dori..lol. I really really want a reef tank and as of now I have a 47 Gal Cichlid tank that I have had for almost a year. Now for the overwhelmed part. I look at all the pictures of the tanks online and the tanks in the store and it just blows me away how much is involved with them. skimmers and sumps and this and that and 500 dollars worth of lighting..OMG im gettin stressed just typing this..lol. So am I out of my league here or is this not as bad as im making it out to be? I was told by the owner of what is said to be western Canada's best fish store that I can use my Fluval 304 filter but I'll need 1 or possibly 2 powerheads..so the sump thing isnt going to effect me thank god..but its just all the rest of the things im going to need thats making me stress and thinking I might not be able to handle a reef tank..Are there any other "newbs" to reef tanks that can offer some advise?

05/27/2006, 10:06 PM	#3
old salty Genius Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 3,131	I too came from the freshwater community. There is much more equipment for salt water/reef tanks than for the FW. Though it may seem overwhelming at first, a lot of it has been developed through the years to make reefkeeping simpler. Take a sump for example. This does quite a few things: helps to drive off CO2 by aerating the water, adds to total water volume (more stable system), and evaporation takes place here; your tank level stays the same. You can use a sump to put lots of equipment; heaters, skimmers, phosphate reactors, etc... I started off with a book called, "The New Marine Aquarium" by Mike Paletta. This is an excellent book that gives you a wealth of information and is well written. I read it cover to cover about a dozen times as well as scanned the reef forums and learned what others have done successfully. It may also help to check out a local reefers club in your area. __________________ "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." Thomas Jefferson Current Tank Info: Out of the marine aquarium hobby

05/27/2006, 11:17 PM	#9
pitt_prodigy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Palm Harbor, FL Posts: 751	The initial investment in this hobby is phenominal!! I can remember the month i bought supplies very well..... for a while i couldnt walk out of the LFS without spending at least $500 and that was what i considered a good day. For what i have invested in my 72g right now.... i probably could have bought a car.... though it would be an older car, probably with high mileage! Dont let the startup period when your bank account is dropping like enron stock scare you away. Luckily, if you do the research and buy quality stuff the first time around, you will be pleasantly surprised at the comparitive low cost of upkeep. After all the money ive spent.... i can still say that im just as hooked on this hobby as the first day i picked up a reefkeeping book. Good luck and enjoy. __________________ -Josh Current Tank Info: 72 gallon RR Oceanic, heavily modded ASM G2 skimmer, 30g sump/refugium, AI vega lighting x 2, apex controller, Phos Reactor, etc.

05/27/2006, 11:57 PM	#13
funman1 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Roseville, CA Posts: 4,898	*To Reef Central* __________________ Professional Pyro: NO REALLY; I get PAID to blow stuff up!! ~Steve~ Current Tank Info: 12G NANO

05/28/2006, 02:05 AM	#15
lessans Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Decatur, GA Posts: 913	First off, you don't even need fish to cycle a tank. You can use uncured live rock to cycle your tank. Before I started my reef tank I had only a FW tank with 2 gouramis. I went straight into a reef tank and bypassed a FO or FOWLR. Reefs are so much cooler. At first I was only intimidated by saltwater tanks b/c of the cost and difficulty of maintenance, but money ended up not being an issue (for the initial startup I used Bar Mitzvah money) on my 65 gal and maintenance isn't that much more difficult than a FW tank except you don't vaccuum the substrate. To take stress off my lower back and redue the mess of a water change I do weekly water changes of 10 gal from my 65 gal tank instead of biweekly water changes of 20 gal. *The bigger the tank, the more stable your water quality will be. That's why I chose a 65 gal tank instead of a compact and deceivingly easier to maintain 30 gal tank. Don't feel bad if you can't make up your mind about what size tank to get. It took me awhile. Maintaining saltwater aquariums aren't difficult if you take the time to understand the biology and chemistry behind it all, which is quite easy and interesting. All the tasks that people may call "chores for the tank" aren't "chores" if you understand why they are necessary. If you understand why they are necessary, then you get more hands-on involvement with the hobby. If you get to do more with this hobby, you enjoy it more, hopefully. Keep in mind this IS a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If you don't enjoy doing the things necessary to keep your underwater friends happy and healthy, you might consider understanding the hobby better. 95% of this hobby is learning. The other 5% is applying what you've learned to the daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly tasks. Also, after learning, the tasks become second nature. Think of setting up a SW aquarium as a fun experience when you get to choose the cool equipment you'll be handling all the time , establish the surroundings your tank inhabitants will live in, and which animals are compatible with each other as opposed to a tedious and daunting experience. **Watching corals and other things grow and multiply distracts me from being impatient by adding animals and chemicals to the tank too quickly and may do the same for you. If any of you newbies would like any support, feel free to PM me any time. I love helping you guys. __________________ "Oh, Mother, I come baring a gift. I'll give you a hint. It's in my diaper and it's not a toaster" -Stewie Griffin Current Tank Info: current tank: 20 gal reef; former tanks: 65 gal reef, 10 gal freshwater

05/27/2006, 10:05 PM	#2
Danfish Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 296	As someone who is on a very tight budget (but a very strong obsession) I have to say it is a bit overwhelming, but can be done. Were taking our 65 gal in baby steps. I add one large purchase every month, $100-$200 range. This month it was 45 pounds of fiji live rock. Last month it was a second powerhead and cleaning crew. Next month it will likely be a few fish. I'm still needing the lights (quite badly) and have a "lights fund" setup on the side to stash money in. Hopefully someday it will be big enough to get the 250watts of T5 lighting I want, or hopefully I'll run across someone looking to sell their used set cheap. (36" wattage doesn't matter as long as its >200 total) I feel your frustration. Sometimes I sit in front of the tank glass looking at my near barren tank watching the lonely 3 chromis swim around and sigh knowing what it could be. But in a way that keep you going. You know what it could be, so you can't give up now. For now things move slowly and I'll have plenty of time to research.

05/27/2006, 10:14 PM	#4
GonGShoW StuNNa Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 12	Hey I like your attitude Danfish..I to am on a fairly tight budget but the downside to that is im very impatient and when I want something I want it NOW! hehe..But yeah I sit in front of my tank and look at my 10 African Cichilds and think..when i figure this salt water thing out you guys are f****d! And Salty thanks for the heads up on that book..I'll keep an eye out for it..did you pick it up at a book store of a pet store?

05/27/2006, 10:30 PM	#5
Blutowski Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Memphis Posts: 69	I guess I'm not alone in this then. I have spent the last 2 months obsessing, scheming and combing this and every other reef site on the internet trying to take as much in as I possibly can. After all of that, I figure it will take me @ 1500 to get a 55G setup with a decent fuge, lighting, DYI stand, and AGA. That also shoud be enough to also get me @ 50lbs of LR, sand and a few fish and corals. After that my first invesment will be a calcium reactor so I can expand on my corals and maybe some clams. I know there are hidden costs that I am missing somewhere. If any experienced member would like to chime in and give me a dose of reality, I would appreciate it.

05/27/2006, 10:45 PM	#6
Danfish Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 296	My "To buy" list that I haven't gotten yet. In order of to be purchased. 1) 250 watts of T5 lights. 2) RO/DI unit (we have near prestine tap water here with a VERY high concentration of calcium, limestone filtered, but I don't trust it) 3) Refugium (I might even make my own in the sump, via a rubbermaid bin) 4) Calcium reactor 5) high grade testing gear (digital pH meter, digital thermometer, refractometer) That will take me into next year I fear. At the rate I'm going for the lighting it may take 3 years

05/27/2006, 10:56 PM	#7
roper512 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 393	Gongshow - I understand where you're coming from.. Let me tell you something though. Before you get started, research research research.. I have been researching reef/marine aquariums now for several years and have not even set up my first one yet (I have all the equipment, just waiting to set it up while the live rock "cooks").. Just when you think you know enough to get started you realize that you're just beginning to scratch the surface There's so many facets to marine aquariums and there's many ways one can be set up that it can be overwhelming. Personally I have taken the expensive route by buying all top of the line equipment and having my tank and stand custom built. I am not rich by any means but I made it work just by putting money aside while I researched. (not having kids, car payments or pets at the moment helps as well ) I read that you're not a very patient person and I don't mean to discourage you from this hobby but reefkeeping is definately one that requires patience . It's the kind of thing that takes tons of time to establish but can all come crashing down in a few hours if you're not careful. It also requires patience because even once you have it all set up, a reef aquarium definately takes a long time to mature. Because of that it's good to really have done your research before you get into all of this. Ultimately rushing will end up costing you more because you bought shoddy equipment, put livestock in your tank that's toxic or incompatible with a reef or just started dosing all sorts of stuff without really knowing much about what it does. As far as resources I can recommend to you, reefcentral is obviously an incredible resource. There are many good books as well, here's a few that I know of: Reef Secrets: Starting Right, Selecting Fishes & Invertebrates, Advanced Biotope Techniques - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155 The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium (Nilsen & Fossa) Volumes 1,2,3,4 (search on amazon) The Reef Aquarium (series of 3 volumes) (Delbeek & Sprung) (search on amazon) Aquarium Corals : Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155 Reef Invertebrates: An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibilty - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096...lance&n=283155 The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155 For some more books I didn't cover you can check out this reefcentral.com link - http://reefcentral.com/books/ As with anything, take all the opinions you read here and through books, condense it all in your mind and decide what YOU'D like to do.. There are many varying opinions on many subjects with reefkeeping and it comes down to how YOU want to do it. Take your time, do your research and you will be very happy you did

05/27/2006, 11:00 PM	#8
vessxpress1 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: NW IL Posts: 1,603	I'm also an impatient person, but most people can only do so much at one time. I started out and learned a lot just keeping SW fish to begin with for a few years. I'm glad I did. It's a lot less to worry about. I eventually got to the point where I needed to go reef tank in order to stay interested. I didn't find this site until a guy told me about it last summer. IMO, you can find answers to all of your questions right here. My advice is to read and plan and then read and plan some more. If you have to start out with a reef, figure out what are the requirements for everything you intend to keep and what your maintenance costs are going to be. Examples: Depending on the TDS of your tap water, you're probably going to need an RO/DI unit. Great ones at airwaterice.com. New filters for that once a year. How much salt do you want to buy a month? How much do you plan on spending on bulbs that need to be replaced once a year? (Spectrum goes out on all types after about a year or less. Metal Halides can be over 100 dollars a bulb and good power compacts go for 30-40 range a bulb) Figure out how much electricity the system will use a month. How much more of a bill are you comfortable with? How much in additives do you want to spend on a regular basis? For my 38 gal., 2 32 oz. bottles of Bi-onic (2 part alkalinity and calcium buffer) at 24.00 lasts about 2-3 months. The bigger you go, the quicker this stuff runs out. It usually pays to get stuff in bulk no matter what size you decide to go with. Since last July I have over 3,400 dollars total, invested in my 38 gallon including everything and I don't have a very good skimmer and I only have dual 96 W PCs. I'm not factoring in all the livestock I lost through the learning process. I have a HOB filter, and also run a fluval 304 filled with carbon, kent nitrate sponge, phosgard and bio-rings. The tank tacks about 11.00 a month onto my electric bill plus whatever the window AC running does. It's up to you how you want it to look and how quick you want it to look that way. It will be easier to fill a 38 gal quicker than a 75 but now I wish my 75 was set up because my 38 is too packed. There isn't room for much more. Time always leads to upgrades. Controling the temp and topping off with fresh water every day is probably the toughest part. I'm not automated and I don't have a chiller, so it's critical to maintain room temp. There's a lot to learn in the Reef Discussion forum. A lot of the people that really know what they're doing spend most of their time there. I think RC mainly wants to keep the basic quetions here though. I've learned a lot along the way. Just wish I would have known about this site a long time ago. The local fish stores don't always have your best interests in mind although some do.

05/27/2006, 11:18 PM	#10
vessxpress1 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: NW IL Posts: 1,603	You've probably heard enough from me but going from a fish only with live rock (FOWLR) tank to a reef tank is a big step. When I had a FOWLR I had one normal, cheap flourescent tube over the tank that I never worried about the spectrum going out. All I had to buy was fish food, salt, pH buffer, and maybe an ammonia, nitrite, and pH test. Change water about once a month. Now that it's a reef tank, I can't keep as many fish, about any coral you want at the LFS will run you 40 to 50 dollars, I have way more different types of food, better lights, numerous additives and supplements, 3 times the amount of tests in order to test for them and do water changes much more often because I'm paranoid of losing expensive livestock. I know it may seem intimidating at first but after you get into it for a while you, and probably only you will understand what's going on. To many people, my tank and my routine with it seems mind boggling but it's really not. You know what's going on and keep schedules in the back of your head. Buy stuff in bulk so you don't have to worry about running out all the time and be prepared to buy about 200.00 worth of tests. I'd stick with salifert brand and don't mess with the swing arm hydrometers. Spring for an easy to use, 40.00 refractometer to test your salt levels. They're much quicker, less messy and more accurate. Hope this helps.

05/27/2006, 11:33 PM	#11
smcdonn Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Fayetteville, AR Posts: 925	I was in your shoes about 6 months ago. Walked into the local fish store and was blow away with all the equipment and technical jargon they were speaking. Well now I have a 75 gallon reef and just added 100lbs of live rock that came from somebody elses tank that has been up and running for about 3 years. Let me tell you it is all worth it in the end. I don't even have any fish and it is just so cool watching the snails and little starfish. Along with the little bubble anenome, lots of flaming xenia (don't laugh I really have no idea if this is right. you know the things with fingers that are constantly opening and closing), feather dusters, etc... ITS SOOOOOOOO COOOL. I still cant get over it. I have been just sitting in front of the tank just watching everything. I have no regrets. I have spend about $2000 on this tank but is has been worth every penny. Just keep reading here on RC. This is where I learned almost everything. The knowledge here is priceless because these guys arent trying to sell you something. Go for it, you won't regret a thing

05/27/2006, 11:56 PM	#12
GonGShoW StuNNa Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 12	Ok well all you guys are definitely making me feel more optominstic about all this..Maybe I would be better suited starting with a fish only tank..not sure about this but can i put in live rock for a fish only setup? As long as my daughter can have her nemo and dori and i can have some sweet looking fish and learn about maintaining salt water levels along the way that might be a good start for me..Im assuming the "reef" aspect of the reef tank is just corals and anemonies? I have a 30w blue actinic bulb already so would that do for fish only?

05/28/2006, 04:49 AM	#16
onegreenray Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Carlisle, Pa Posts: 4,016	The first and foremost thing is to do your research. When I started out years ago I would read and read and read on RC. If you decided to go fish only, your current filter will work. But you will have to upgrade the light, filter system, water quality (ro unit) in the future if you go with any type of reef tank. It also gets very expensive with all the equipment. Me personally, I have built most of my equipment for the tank. sumps, hoods, stands, etc the list goes on. if you are somewhat handy check out the do it yourself forums. there are a lot of great ideas in there to help you save money. use RC to help with your quest for knowledge. also look and see if you have a local reef geeks club. if there is one in your area join it. you will be surprised how club members will help you along your way. Good luck and enjoy...remember this is fun.

05/28/2006, 08:56 AM	#17
Blutowski Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Memphis Posts: 69	Another option I have found is to check the classifieds. In my local paper's sunday classifieds there are about 5 listings for almost complete setups for about a 3rd of the price of starting from scratch. One lisiting had a 170G+ setup complete with LR and LS for @ $1400. It's not quite the same as buiding your own setup, but it really will take the bite out that initiall hit on the kids college fund. This is the way I'm going to go once I have my finances in order.

05/28/2006, 10:07 AM	#19
GonGShoW StuNNa Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 12	Well I just wanna say I really appreciate all the advise you guys have taken the time to give me..I'm going to hit up my lfs today and get a list of everything i need together..

05/28/2006, 10:37 AM	#20
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	gongshow, you can upgrade a few aspects of the system and give yourself a few mushrooms...take a look at some mushroom tanks, and you'll be amazed at the color and motion. If you think you might be tempted in that direction, definitely consider fish behavior. Anemones are cranky creatures, requiring very good water and a mature tank, but if you wait long enough, you can get a 'nem tank going and they can be drop-dead gorgeous. PS: my lfs sells nice frags at 30 dollars. I guess we get a good deal. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.