Plumbing questions need advise

mlb75 · 06/20/2006, 02:21 AM

OK I've had my 180 up and running for several months and while things are running ok I now see some of the things that I probably should have addressed earlier but wanted to get other opinions before proceeding.

1. The tank is getting warmer than I'd like and am having to keep the house uncomfortably cool to keep it somewhat in control so I've got a chiller. The question is how to plumb it. The chiller I got is the 1/3HP Prime inline tower chiller (from DR Foster Smith) it's rated for 320-720 GPH. I've also got a UV that I've currently got running inline with my sump return pump (mag24). The plan is to take the UV out of the main return line and run it inline with the chiller. The pump I've got to do this is a mag18, I plan to take it 3/4" out of the mag 18 to the UV then up it to 1" through the chiller (figured better up to 1" than down to 1/2") but then where???

Should I take it back to the sump or return it to the display tank? After all the head loss for the turns, chiller, length of plumbing etc (chiller will be next to the tank) I don't think the mag 18 will be to much, more likely just right in terms of flow. What do others think??? Where do you dump your chiller outputs? Could I dump it into the fuge which in turn runs back into the sump? Pros, Cons of each??

I've also played with the idea of making the chiller and UV part of a closed loop system like that on Melev's reef only maybe without the Squid. Any comments? If I did that what would the impact be of having 4-6 outputs instead of 2? That way I could reduce the output of each one individually but maybe produce some current behind my rock formations.

My heartache with running it from the sump back to the display (or closed loop) is I'm afraid of creating colder zones in the display, is that an issue? I just figured if I kept the sump at a set temp the display would follow especially with the amount of flow I have going through it.

2. The main return doesn't seem to provide as much flow in the display as I thought a mag24 should. Currently it's coming out of the pump 1" into a 1" T that then exits in two 3/4" hoses to the two factory AGA returns. Would I see any improvement if I came out of the pump with a 1" to 1 1/2 reducer plumbed backward then T'ed into a 1 1/2"hard line running the length of the back with two fittings off the 1 1/2 hard line to connect to the factory returns? How about using 2" instead of the 1 1/2? I'd just like to use the pumps I've got as efficiently as possible and keep the "extra" pumps and PH's in the display to a minimum.

BTW the sump is a 75 gallon tank with a 20 gallon tank inside it used as the fuge. I run the 75 gallon about 2/3's full and the fuge tank is elevated inside to be flush with the top of the 75 so as to take up as little volume in the 75 as possible. I'm probably going to re-make the sump area before long to make some improvements there as well but the basic functionality and sizes will remain pretty much unchanged.

Thanks for any and all advise or opinions...

techigirl78 · 06/20/2006, 08:05 AM

If you don't get any good responses here, try the Do It Yourself forum.

MarkD40 · 06/20/2006, 02:25 PM

Mike. Couple of points:

1. IMO the UV should be in-line with the water returning to the display tank. This way ALL of the water entering the display has passed through the UV. Yes I know that eventually all of the water goes through the UV but I like the idea of the water being as "pure" as it can be before entering the display tank.

2. IMO the outflow from the chiller should enter the sump first. This will mix the cooler water with the warmer water first so you won't have as much temperature difference between the water entering the display and the display water. Think about sitting under the vent of an air conditioner. You will feel a cool breeze, whereas if you sit across the room you won't feel the cool air even though it is cooling down the room.

3. You don't say how far above your sump your display is. I have my sump in the basement with my return 12 feet above the sump. I tried a mag24 for my return and discovered that mag pumps don't/can't push against much head pressure. They are good circulating pumps and move a lot of water but not against pressure. When you add in fittings, elbows and valves it only gets worse. I upgraded to a gen-X hp-70 pump and the difference was amazing.

I also found that my mag 24 and mag 12 when used submerged transferred a great deal of heat to my tank. Even when I moved them outside the tank there was still a fair amount of heat transfer although less than before.

MarkD40 · 06/21/2006, 12:47 PM

Increasing the diameter of the pipe coming off your mag 24 return pump will reduce back pressure and increase the amount of water delivered to your AGA returns in the display but not by enough to make a huge difference IMO. A higher output pump is what you need especially if you have a significant head pressure to overcome.

ERICN · 06/21/2006, 12:54 PM

Also keep in mind you don't want that much water going through the chiller or the UV you need prolly about 300-400gph is all the mag 24 is ALOT more than that going that fast neither will be effective.

mlb75 · 06/21/2006, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the input.

The sump is directly under the tank in an Oceanic stand. I've pretty much decided that it's going to be fed back into the sump as you've all recommended unless someone came back with some pretty strong points to the contrary.

The mag 24 return pump is used inline off a bulkhead in the sump so heat isn't a big deal there, the 18 feeding the chiller though will be submerged (at least for now) but since it's running a 1/3 HP chiller the heat while a pain in the rump shouldn't be a big deal.

I had no intention of running the chiller through the 24. The UV is currently running on one of the two return legs and for the mean time it will stay there, it's a 57 watt unit that is rated to allow at least that much flow.

I honestly am not impressed with the flow through the mag pumps, I expected more out of a 2400 or 1800 GPH (yea right)pump. The more I mess with them I realize that to get the advertised flow they can't have anything attached to them, as soon as you plum in the first 90 you cut it in half (yes I realize it's not quite that bad) but I haven't found a good cost effective replacement yet.

As for flow the I've got the chiller set up in test mode right now, I want to make sure all my fittings are perfect before I set it up in my living room, and at the moment it takes me ~10 second to fill a milk jug, I know it's not completely scientific but if you do the math that puts the mag 18 at ~360 GPH with nothing but the chiller attached.

Are most chillers etc rated for actual GPH or are they rated by the same BS standard the pumps are rated for?

06/20/2006, 02:21 AM	#1
mlb75 Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chesapeake VA Posts: 399	Plumbing questions need advise OK I've had my 180 up and running for several months and while things are running ok I now see some of the things that I probably should have addressed earlier but wanted to get other opinions before proceeding. 1. The tank is getting warmer than I'd like and am having to keep the house uncomfortably cool to keep it somewhat in control so I've got a chiller. The question is how to plumb it. The chiller I got is the 1/3HP Prime inline tower chiller (from DR Foster Smith) it's rated for 320-720 GPH. I've also got a UV that I've currently got running inline with my sump return pump (mag24). The plan is to take the UV out of the main return line and run it inline with the chiller. The pump I've got to do this is a mag18, I plan to take it 3/4" out of the mag 18 to the UV then up it to 1" through the chiller (figured better up to 1" than down to 1/2") but then where??? Should I take it back to the sump or return it to the display tank? After all the head loss for the turns, chiller, length of plumbing etc (chiller will be next to the tank) I don't think the mag 18 will be to much, more likely just right in terms of flow. What do others think??? Where do you dump your chiller outputs? Could I dump it into the fuge which in turn runs back into the sump? Pros, Cons of each?? I've also played with the idea of making the chiller and UV part of a closed loop system like that on Melev's reef only maybe without the Squid. Any comments? If I did that what would the impact be of having 4-6 outputs instead of 2? That way I could reduce the output of each one individually but maybe produce some current behind my rock formations. My heartache with running it from the sump back to the display (or closed loop) is I'm afraid of creating colder zones in the display, is that an issue? I just figured if I kept the sump at a set temp the display would follow especially with the amount of flow I have going through it. 2. The main return doesn't seem to provide as much flow in the display as I thought a mag24 should. Currently it's coming out of the pump 1" into a 1" T that then exits in two 3/4" hoses to the two factory AGA returns. Would I see any improvement if I came out of the pump with a 1" to 1 1/2 reducer plumbed backward then T'ed into a 1 1/2"hard line running the length of the back with two fittings off the 1 1/2 hard line to connect to the factory returns? How about using 2" instead of the 1 1/2? I'd just like to use the pumps I've got as efficiently as possible and keep the "extra" pumps and PH's in the display to a minimum. BTW the sump is a 75 gallon tank with a 20 gallon tank inside it used as the fuge. I run the 75 gallon about 2/3's full and the fuge tank is elevated inside to be flush with the top of the 75 so as to take up as little volume in the 75 as possible. I'm probably going to re-make the sump area before long to make some improvements there as well but the basic functionality and sizes will remain pretty much unchanged. Thanks for any and all advise or opinions... __________________ Mike Current Tank Info: Currently tankless planning ~90G nano

06/20/2006, 02:25 PM	#3
MarkD40 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 647	Mike. Couple of points: 1. IMO the UV should be in-line with the water returning to the display tank. This way ALL of the water entering the display has passed through the UV. Yes I know that eventually all of the water goes through the UV but I like the idea of the water being as "pure" as it can be before entering the display tank. 2. IMO the outflow from the chiller should enter the sump first. This will mix the cooler water with the warmer water first so you won't have as much temperature difference between the water entering the display and the display water. Think about sitting under the vent of an air conditioner. You will feel a cool breeze, whereas if you sit across the room you won't feel the cool air even though it is cooling down the room. 3. You don't say how far above your sump your display is. I have my sump in the basement with my return 12 feet above the sump. I tried a mag24 for my return and discovered that mag pumps don't/can't push against much head pressure. They are good circulating pumps and move a lot of water but not against pressure. When you add in fittings, elbows and valves it only gets worse. I upgraded to a gen-X hp-70 pump and the difference was amazing. I also found that my mag 24 and mag 12 when used submerged transferred a great deal of heat to my tank. Even when I moved them outside the tank there was still a fair amount of heat transfer although less than before. __________________ My ship came in. Unfortunately it hit a reef. Current Tank Info: 110 gallon reef display tank, fish, LPS, SPS and mushrooms. A 75 gallon sump in basement with protein skimmer, 40watt UV sterilizer, RO/DI, refugium with chaeto, phosban reactor. 40 gallon frag tank.

06/21/2006, 12:47 PM	#4
MarkD40 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 647	Increasing the diameter of the pipe coming off your mag 24 return pump will reduce back pressure and increase the amount of water delivered to your AGA returns in the display but not by enough to make a huge difference IMO. A higher output pump is what you need especially if you have a significant head pressure to overcome. __________________ My ship came in. Unfortunately it hit a reef. Current Tank Info: 110 gallon reef display tank, fish, LPS, SPS and mushrooms. A 75 gallon sump in basement with protein skimmer, 40watt UV sterilizer, RO/DI, refugium with chaeto, phosban reactor. 40 gallon frag tank.

06/21/2006, 11:37 PM	#6
mlb75 Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chesapeake VA Posts: 399	Thanks for the input. The sump is directly under the tank in an Oceanic stand. I've pretty much decided that it's going to be fed back into the sump as you've all recommended unless someone came back with some pretty strong points to the contrary. The mag 24 return pump is used inline off a bulkhead in the sump so heat isn't a big deal there, the 18 feeding the chiller though will be submerged (at least for now) but since it's running a 1/3 HP chiller the heat while a pain in the rump shouldn't be a big deal. I had no intention of running the chiller through the 24. The UV is currently running on one of the two return legs and for the mean time it will stay there, it's a 57 watt unit that is rated to allow at least that much flow. I honestly am not impressed with the flow through the mag pumps, I expected more out of a 2400 or 1800 GPH (yea right)pump. The more I mess with them I realize that to get the advertised flow they can't have anything attached to them, as soon as you plum in the first 90 you cut it in half (yes I realize it's not quite that bad) but I haven't found a good cost effective replacement yet. As for flow the I've got the chiller set up in test mode right now, I want to make sure all my fittings are perfect before I set it up in my living room, and at the moment it takes me ~10 second to fill a milk jug, I know it's not completely scientific but if you do the math that puts the mag 18 at ~360 GPH with nothing but the chiller attached. Are most chillers etc rated for actual GPH or are they rated by the same BS standard the pumps are rated for? __________________ Mike Current Tank Info: Currently tankless planning ~90G nano

06/20/2006, 08:05 AM	#2
techigirl78 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,739	If you don't get any good responses here, try the Do It Yourself forum.

06/21/2006, 12:54 PM	#5
ERICN Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: MISSOURI Posts: 310	Also keep in mind you don't want that much water going through the chiller or the UV you need prolly about 300-400gph is all the mag 24 is ALOT more than that going that fast neither will be effective.