Cloudy Water - Page 3

jdieck · 08/10/2006, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nach_
Maybe I commited a big mistake and the membran dried? It can be anything related with the RO unit. About the DI membran, also I will need a special unit where to place it, wont I?

This is were the TDS meter comes in handy. By measuring the TDS going into the membrane and comparing them with the TDS going out you know if the membrane is OK. I doubt it might have dried to the point of becoming damaged, I guess that it just grew some bacteria during the time of inactivity and that bacteria was just needed to be purged out after the initial several gallons of putting it back in service.

Regarding the cartridges they are disposable. Sorry. The membrane shall last up to five years unless chlorine has passed the carbon filter.

For the DI filter you need a housing and then the disposable cartridge.
Here you can find the housing with a cartridge already included as an add on option, try to get a transparent housing so you can use color indicating resin and know when to change it, otherwise you will need to keep on testin gthe TDS of the output water to know when to replace the resin cartridge. here is what it looks like, depending were you buy it here it might cost as low as $25.00 as high as $60.00

jdieck · 08/11/2006, 12:31 AM

Try this guys, they are located right there in Barcelona:

ExposiciÃ³n y Tienda
Puragua Systems 2000, S.L.
C/ AragÃ³n, 14
08015 - Barcelona (Spain)

Tel. 93 325 79 00 ext. 13
http://www.puraguasystems.com/frame1.html

nach_ · 08/11/2006, 08:13 PM

They seem to be closed in august. Tried a good number of shops I found through google and most were closed.

Ftm I've done a lot of KH test and all I get was 0 KH. If you think that there is any other test that will give us some info about the water that is producing my RO unit please tell me.

Thankyou.

jdieck · 08/11/2006, 10:26 PM

Did you get the TDS meter yet?
Did you tried mixing a batch of water with the salt and see if it precipitate again?

nach_ · 08/11/2006, 11:19 PM

No, I havent got that TDS, it seems hard to get one in August here, and if we add weekend to that circumstance then I think I'll have to wait until monday.

I will try to mix salt in 5kg of RO water, when I've the results I'll tell you!

nach_ · 08/14/2006, 01:52 PM

Ok, I haven't bought a TDS because the only I found was a bit expensive (66 â‚¬). However, I went to the shop with a sample of osmosis water and flush water.

The flush water I have has got : 400 ppm

The osmosis water goes around: 28-30 ppm

I think this values are correct, in the shop I've been told that its perfect.

Thankyou again!

jdieck · 08/14/2006, 02:07 PM

Well you have what I call hard water

400 ppm input of dissolved solids is large by the kind of system you have.
The actual rejection comes at:

RJ% = (400 - 29)/400 *100 = 92.8%
That leads me to belive that either:

a) You included in the sample the first produced water in the process which has usually high TDS for the first 5 liters or so.

b) your RO system is based on a nano filtration membrane rather than a high rejection one.
nano filtration has a minimum rejection of 90% while TFC high rejection membranes run in the 98% level.

c) the membrane has been partially deteriorated by drying out or by chlorine.

In any case 28 to 30 ppm do not really call for the additional alkalinity that may create the precipitation issues.
If you use the DI cartridge after the filter you might be able to drop that 28 ppm to almost zero.

nach_ · 08/14/2006, 06:19 PM

Well, the point now is if you think that 30 ppm of tsm in RO water is producing the "cloudy water".

The water that I tested was obtained after 20 minutes of doing water.

I asked in the shop about a DI cartridge but the price is around 70$ which I think is too much. (I get the 300 litrs. of destiled water for 50$), despite that I dont want only to pass over the problem, instead I want to solve the problem and use RO water.

jdieck · 08/14/2006, 06:36 PM

No I do not think 30 ppm of tds is causing the precipitation but...

Consider that 30 ppm is not really pure. Tap water brings Nitrates, Phosphates, Silicates, Metals, Hydrocarbons and many other stuff you do not want in your aquarium water anyhow and remember that once functional you will be replacing 24 to 36 liters per week. I can see you carrying those jugs around

BTW distilled water as sold in the jugs may not be that pure after all if it is not produced with stainless steel equipment and may carry traces of copper or lead from the piping used in the process.

nach_ · 08/15/2006, 06:44 PM

Ok. Tried again with 15 liters (~4 gal)... How can I explain, after waiting around 20 hours the water looks milky. Its not possible to see an object inside of water (in one side of the recipient) from the other side (the distance is around 40 cm).

Don't know what to think. The DI resin may be the solution but it's expensive. Any clue? I am so tired about this issue...

Sorry for the annoyance jdieck,

thankyou again!

jdieck · 08/15/2006, 08:27 PM

I think your salt might be the issue

nach_ · 08/16/2006, 05:09 AM

I dont know what to think, this last try was done with HW salt. I have also tried with Reef Crystals Salt and same issue. It's something so strange.... Maybe both salts are not good...

nach_ · 08/16/2006, 12:17 PM

Ok. Today I did the same but with destiled water instead RO water. All went perfect. So there is something for sure, the problem comes from the RO water. The RO water has 30 ppm of TDS but probably in that 30 ppm there is something that's making the salt to precipitate.

I wait for your advice jdieck!

nach_ · 08/16/2006, 01:53 PM

I've got some information about the membrane of my RO unit:

Osmonics
Desal Brand Membranes
Model -> TFM-75

In this link there is some information about this membrane (average eficiency -> 96%):

http://www.gewater.com/pdf/resdntl/h...240003_POU.pdf

If a place the DI cartridge after the RO unit I will get 0 ppm, or near 0?

What is clear is that the problem comes from the RO water!

jdieck · 08/16/2006, 03:13 PM

The membrane is not one of the best out there but should be able to perform. A DI cartridge shall do the work.

nach_ · 08/16/2006, 05:29 PM

Then, what membrane would you recommend?

And the DI cartridge is placed just after the RO unit but does it need a pump to work or something? I mean do I need something to raise the entrance pressure to the DI cartridge?

Im doubting wheter to update the membrane or to install a DI cartridge after the RO unit and keep the current membrane.

It's a problem of the membrane or a problem of the pre-filter? Is there any way to know this?

jdieck · 08/16/2006, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nach_
Then, what membrane would you recommend? And the DI cartridge is placed just after the RO unit but does it need a pump to work or something? I mean do I need something to raise the entrance pressure to the DI cartridge?

IMO the Filmtec membranes from Dow can achieve rejection rates above 99% rather than 96% and their rating is 75 gpd but at a pressure of 50 psi rather than the 65 psi required by the GE membrane. Having said that the only diference with what you have is that you will get a little less production and your DI filter might not last as long as it has to remove more impurities.
The DI cartridge do not need a pump or anything, just connect the output of the RO to the input of the DI and get your product water out of the DI cartrisge outlet.
If you will use color indicating resin remember that the housing for the cartridge has to be transparent. You can also use your TDS to measure the ouput purity and when the TDS starts to rise you can change the resin cartridge.

jdieck · 08/17/2006, 01:39 AM

I think you might be interested in these three articles.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.htm

nach_ · 08/17/2006, 09:45 AM

Jdieck today I've bought the DI unit. Placed just after the RO unit makes the TDS to go from 30 ppm to 1-3 ppm.

I tried with 15 liters and the salt dissolved fastly and the water now, after 1 hour is perfectly clear. I'll proceed to fill the aquarium.

However, the problem WAS caused by only 30 ppm water, strange... isn't it?

Thankyou VERY much!

jdieck · 08/17/2006, 11:10 AM

Your welcome. Monitor the TDS if it starts rising say to 5 or 6 ppm change the resin. If you let it go too far the resin may start releasing what it captured.
I am glad you found the problem and has been solved.
Enjoy and Good Luck!

08/11/2006, 12:31 AM	#52
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Try this guys, they are located right there in Barcelona: ExposiciÃ³n y Tienda Puragua Systems 2000, S.L. C/ AragÃ³n, 14 08015 - Barcelona (Spain) Tel. 93 325 79 00 ext. 13 http://www.puraguasystems.com/frame1.html __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/11/2006, 10:26 PM	#54
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Did you get the TDS meter yet? Did you tried mixing a batch of water with the salt and see if it precipitate again? __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/14/2006, 02:07 PM	#57
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Well you have what I call hard water 400 ppm input of dissolved solids is large by the kind of system you have. The actual rejection comes at: RJ% = (400 - 29)/400 *100 = 92.8% That leads me to belive that either: a) You included in the sample the first produced water in the process which has usually high TDS for the first 5 liters or so. b) your RO system is based on a nano filtration membrane rather than a high rejection one. nano filtration has a minimum rejection of 90% while TFC high rejection membranes run in the 98% level. c) the membrane has been partially deteriorated by drying out or by chlorine. In any case 28 to 30 ppm do not really call for the additional alkalinity that may create the precipitation issues. If you use the DI cartridge after the filter you might be able to drop that 28 ppm to almost zero. __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/14/2006, 06:36 PM	#59
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	No I do not think 30 ppm of tds is causing the precipitation but... Consider that 30 ppm is not really pure. Tap water brings Nitrates, Phosphates, Silicates, Metals, Hydrocarbons and many other stuff you do not want in your aquarium water anyhow and remember that once functional you will be replacing 24 to 36 liters per week. I can see you carrying those jugs around BTW distilled water as sold in the jugs may not be that pure after all if it is not produced with stainless steel equipment and may carry traces of copper or lead from the piping used in the process. __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/15/2006, 08:27 PM	#61
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	I think your salt might be the issue __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/11/2006, 08:13 PM	#53
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	They seem to be closed in august. Tried a good number of shops I found through google and most were closed. Ftm I've done a lot of KH test and all I get was 0 KH. If you think that there is any other test that will give us some info about the water that is producing my RO unit please tell me. Thankyou.

08/11/2006, 11:19 PM	#55
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	No, I havent got that TDS, it seems hard to get one in August here, and if we add weekend to that circumstance then I think I'll have to wait until monday. I will try to mix salt in 5kg of RO water, when I've the results I'll tell you!

08/14/2006, 01:52 PM	#56
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	Ok, I haven't bought a TDS because the only I found was a bit expensive (66 â‚¬). However, I went to the shop with a sample of osmosis water and flush water. The flush water I have has got : 400 ppm The osmosis water goes around: 28-30 ppm I think this values are correct, in the shop I've been told that its perfect. Thankyou again!

08/14/2006, 06:19 PM	#58
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	Well, the point now is if you think that 30 ppm of tsm in RO water is producing the "cloudy water". The water that I tested was obtained after 20 minutes of doing water. I asked in the shop about a DI cartridge but the price is around 70$ which I think is too much. (I get the 300 litrs. of destiled water for 50$), despite that I dont want only to pass over the problem, instead I want to solve the problem and use RO water.

08/15/2006, 06:44 PM	#60
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	Ok. Tried again with 15 liters (~4 gal)... How can I explain, after waiting around 20 hours the water looks milky. Its not possible to see an object inside of water (in one side of the recipient) from the other side (the distance is around 40 cm). Don't know what to think. The DI resin may be the solution but it's expensive. Any clue? I am so tired about this issue... Sorry for the annoyance jdieck, thankyou again!

08/16/2006, 05:09 AM	#62
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	I dont know what to think, this last try was done with HW salt. I have also tried with Reef Crystals Salt and same issue. It's something so strange.... Maybe both salts are not good...

08/16/2006, 12:17 PM	#63
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	Ok. Today I did the same but with destiled water instead RO water. All went perfect. So there is something for sure, the problem comes from the RO water. The RO water has 30 ppm of TDS but probably in that 30 ppm there is something that's making the salt to precipitate. I wait for your advice jdieck!

08/16/2006, 01:53 PM	#64
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	I've got some information about the membrane of my RO unit: Osmonics Desal Brand Membranes Model -> TFM-75 In this link there is some information about this membrane (average eficiency -> 96%): http://www.gewater.com/pdf/resdntl/h...240003_POU.pdf If a place the DI cartridge after the RO unit I will get 0 ppm, or near 0? What is clear is that the problem comes from the RO water!

08/16/2006, 03:13 PM	#65
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	The membrane is not one of the best out there but should be able to perform. A DI cartridge shall do the work. __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/16/2006, 05:29 PM	#66
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	Then, what membrane would you recommend? And the DI cartridge is placed just after the RO unit but does it need a pump to work or something? I mean do I need something to raise the entrance pressure to the DI cartridge? Im doubting wheter to update the membrane or to install a DI cartridge after the RO unit and keep the current membrane. It's a problem of the membrane or a problem of the pre-filter? Is there any way to know this?

08/17/2006, 01:39 AM	#68
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	I think you might be interested in these three articles. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.htm __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/17/2006, 09:45 AM	#69
nach_ Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Barcelona Posts: 46	Jdieck today I've bought the DI unit. Placed just after the RO unit makes the TDS to go from 30 ppm to 1-3 ppm. I tried with 15 liters and the salt dissolved fastly and the water now, after 1 hour is perfectly clear. I'll proceed to fill the aquarium. However, the problem WAS caused by only 30 ppm water, strange... isn't it? Thankyou VERY much!

08/17/2006, 11:10 AM	#70
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Your welcome. Monitor the TDS if it starts rising say to 5 or 6 ppm change the resin. If you let it go too far the resin may start releasing what it captured. I am glad you found the problem and has been solved. Enjoy and Good Luck! __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium