PH Way too high!!!

compulou · 10/16/2006, 01:07 PM

Ok so I just re-vamped my entire ATO system. Now it's a huge container going through a Niveaumat Top Off Water Replacer then through a Fishbowlz Nilsen Kalkwasser Stirrer then to my sump. Well I had just finished setting everything up where it was working than I had to leave with my family out of town on emergency (my brothers wife almost passed giving birth to their child, thank god everything is ok) so needless to say I was a little nervous leaving my setup so newly installed. So when I got back home last night everything looked great and I gave a sigh of relief until I looked at my PH. It was @ 8.61!!! Holy high PH batman!!!. I disconnected my Stirrer and did a drip of RO/DI until it came down.

What the hell keeps the PH from shooting though the roof when your always using Kalk in your Top off water???

compulou · 10/16/2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by compulou
What keeps the PH from shooting though the roof when your always using Kalk in your Top off water???

Please, I know some of you use this same type of setup? Can anyone chime in? I'm real bummed my new system is shut down.

tgreene · 10/16/2006, 03:40 PM

1) 8.61 is not really all that high, considering many of us prefer 8.5 over the usual 8.2/3

2) Anyone using a Kalk reactor in conjunction with an auto top-off controller, should seriously consider adding a Milwaukee SMS122-Reversed Controller to the system, because it will turn off your ATO when the pH hits a pre-selected level... I keep mine set at 8.5, which maintains a higher 8.4/5 pH, and 8.6 is not uncommon if it doses immediately after mixing, but it quickly dissipates.

compulou · 10/16/2006, 05:27 PM

Greene thanks for replying but what happens when the Milwaukee SMS122-Reversed Controller turns off my ATO cause the PH is too high and my water level drops too much causing my pump to run dry?

tgreene · 10/16/2006, 05:49 PM

Put a timer on your Kalk reactor (mine is set to mix for 10 minutes every 4 hours), and it will rarely be dosing the heavy sediment, which is generally what creates the huge pH increases. If your pH rises too quickly because the reactor begins dosing during a mixing point, then it will simply shut down and wait for the pH to drop, meanwhile the sediment in your reactor has setteled as well, so when the Milwaukee SMS 122-Reversed Controller senses that it's okay to again begin topping off, it will be doing so with saturated water, not sediment.

In a worse case scenario, I would rather have a sump run dry and potentially fry a pump (use pumps with long dry run times), than have to endure ever going through another tank crash due to a kalk dump that turned my entire system milky white, had a pH of 10.9, killed hundreds of dollars of fish and corals, cost me (2) 160g buckets of IO Salt to do emergency water changes, and 100% of the Macros, Pods and Worms in my sump, in addition to having to endure a 2 month cycle in a fully stocked tank.

-vs-

$150 pump (upwards of $200 for overnight shipping if not available locally)

I've been there and done that, which is why I now use monitors and controllers for absolutely everything, and each of those systems have their own level of backups as well...

Also, you could connect your pump to a float switch, so that if it detects the level is running too low, it would switch off the pump. Since I use a Reef-Relief AATOC top off controller, which directly connects to my RO/DI system, I will never run out of water, so this is far from being a concern of mine.

Henry Bowman · 10/16/2006, 08:22 PM

Use the ATO with RO/ DI water and put the KW on a timer that pulls water from the RO vat through the reactor. If the timer is set to run when the stirrer is off (KW reactor) then the pH will be due to the lack of KW sediment as stated above. Then the ATO will keep the sump from running dry. You can then test for Ca and adjust the KW reactor addition according to the use in your tank....Cheaper than investing in a controller.

In addition, you did not state what the Dkh alkalinity (hardness/ buffer) reading is in your tank. I'm sure you know but... if the alk is too low (below 8 or so in dKh) the kalk will cause pH to swing unrealistically during the or just after the addition.

By the way, my daytime pH runs 8.4 or so and in the reef chemistry forum Randy Holmes-Farley has indicated that a higher pH is much more tolerable to marine life than low pH AND causing it to swing back and fourth is most harmful (moving pH intentionally more than .2 within a few hours tends to be very stressful to your tank's inhabitants) . I believe that pH is logrithmic meaning the difference betw 8.4 and 8.5 is a difference of 10 fold.

compulou · 10/16/2006, 10:40 PM

I wonder if I could setup the ATO on a seperate dosing pump and the Kalk Dosing pump on the PH controller of my RK2? Would that work?

tgreene · 10/17/2006, 08:07 AM

It's been done before, but requires a much more complex system of multiple controllers and solenoids to function properly.

Basically, if the pH controller detects the pH to be low, then it opens a valve that allows kalk to enter the system, but if it detects a high pH, then it responds accordingly by only opening the pure RO/DI water line instead.

If you look through the DIY forum (maybe a month back), you'll see where somebody devised a very nice system to do just that!

10/16/2006, 01:07 PM	#1
compulou Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 951	PH Way too high!!! Ok so I just re-vamped my entire ATO system. Now it's a huge container going through a Niveaumat Top Off Water Replacer then through a Fishbowlz Nilsen Kalkwasser Stirrer then to my sump. Well I had just finished setting everything up where it was working than I had to leave with my family out of town on emergency (my brothers wife almost passed giving birth to their child, thank god everything is ok) so needless to say I was a little nervous leaving my setup so newly installed. So when I got back home last night everything looked great and I gave a sigh of relief until I looked at my PH. It was @ 8.61!!! Holy high PH batman!!!. I disconnected my Stirrer and did a drip of RO/DI until it came down. What the hell keeps the PH from shooting though the roof when your always using Kalk in your Top off water???

10/16/2006, 03:40 PM	#3
tgreene Registered Member. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Jonesboro, AR Posts: 2,712	1) 8.61 is not really all that high, considering many of us prefer 8.5 over the usual 8.2/3 2) Anyone using a Kalk reactor in conjunction with an auto top-off controller, should seriously consider adding a *Milwaukee SMS122-Reversed* Controller** to the system, because it will turn off your ATO when the pH hits a pre-selected level... I keep mine set at 8.5, which maintains a higher 8.4/5 pH, and 8.6 is not uncommon if it doses immediately after mixing, but it quickly dissipates. __________________ WWBAD Current Tank Info: 157g custom Starphire display, 450g frag system, 285g fish QT system, 400g Shark tank

10/16/2006, 05:49 PM	#5
tgreene Registered Member. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Jonesboro, AR Posts: 2,712	Put a timer on your Kalk reactor (mine is set to mix for 10 minutes every 4 hours), and it will rarely be dosing the heavy sediment, which is generally what creates the huge pH increases. If your pH rises too quickly because the reactor begins dosing during a mixing point, then it will simply shut down and wait for the pH to drop, meanwhile the sediment in your reactor has setteled as well, so when the Milwaukee SMS 122-Reversed Controller senses that it's okay to again begin topping off, it will be doing so with saturated water, not sediment. In a worse case scenario, I would rather have a sump run dry and potentially fry a pump (use pumps with long dry run times), than have to endure ever going through another tank crash due to a kalk dump that turned my entire system milky white, had a pH of 10.9, killed hundreds of dollars of fish and corals, cost me (2) 160g buckets of IO Salt to do emergency water changes, and 100% of the Macros, Pods and Worms in my sump, in addition to having to endure a 2 month cycle in a fully stocked tank. -vs- $150 pump (upwards of $200 for overnight shipping if not available locally) I've been there and done that, which is why I now use monitors and controllers for absolutely everything, and each of those systems have their own level of backups as well... Also, you could connect your pump to a float switch, so that if it detects the level is running too low, it would switch off the pump. Since I use a Reef-Relief AATOC top off controller, which directly connects to my RO/DI system, I will never run out of water, so this is far from being a concern of mine. __________________ WWBAD Current Tank Info: 157g custom Starphire display, 450g frag system, 285g fish QT system, 400g Shark tank

10/16/2006, 08:22 PM	#6
Henry Bowman Reefing since '87 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Allegheny Mountains of VA Posts: 2,162	Use the ATO with RO/ DI water and put the KW on a timer that pulls water from the RO vat through the reactor. If the timer is set to run when the stirrer is off (KW reactor) then the pH will be due to the lack of KW sediment as stated above. Then the ATO will keep the sump from running dry. You can then test for Ca and adjust the KW reactor addition according to the use in your tank....Cheaper than investing in a controller. In addition, you did not state what the Dkh alkalinity (hardness/ buffer) reading is in your tank. I'm sure you know but... if the alk is too low (below 8 or so in dKh) the kalk will cause pH to swing unrealistically during the or just after the addition. By the way, my daytime pH runs 8.4 or so and in the reef chemistry forum Randy Holmes-Farley has indicated that a higher pH is much more tolerable to marine life than low pH AND causing it to swing back and fourth is most harmful (moving pH intentionally more than .2 within a few hours tends to be very stressful to your tank's inhabitants) . I believe that pH is logrithmic meaning the difference betw 8.4 and 8.5 is a difference of 10 fold. __________________ Have a good'un Current Tank Info: 90 gl SPS dominant / upgrade in the works

10/17/2006, 08:07 AM	#8
tgreene Registered Member. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Jonesboro, AR Posts: 2,712	It's been done before, but requires a much more complex system of multiple controllers and solenoids to function properly. Basically, if the pH controller detects the pH to be low, then it opens a valve that allows kalk to enter the system, but if it detects a high pH, then it responds accordingly by only opening the pure RO/DI water line instead. If you look through the DIY forum (maybe a month back), you'll see where somebody devised a very nice system to do just that! __________________ WWBAD Current Tank Info: 157g custom Starphire display, 450g frag system, 285g fish QT system, 400g Shark tank

10/16/2006, 05:27 PM	#4
compulou Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 951	Greene thanks for replying but what happens when the Milwaukee SMS122-Reversed Controller turns off my ATO cause the PH is too high and my water level drops too much causing my pump to run dry?

10/16/2006, 10:40 PM	#7
compulou Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 951	I wonder if I could setup the ATO on a seperate dosing pump and the Kalk Dosing pump on the PH controller of my RK2? Would that work?