Newb With 20gal tank (shopping list)

[Timmy44221]

Here is what I already have.

20gal tall tank
Hood with 18in (15watt) powerglow bulb
visatherm stealth heater
penguin 125 (now 150) hob filter
small milenium hob powerfilter

I plan on getting:

Arag-Alive Indo-Pacific Black Sand 20lb (live sand) for DSB
Coralife Super Skimmer-Needle Wheel-65 Gallon
Red Sea Hydrometer w/thermometer
Marine Basic test kit
Aquarium Products Saltwater Biozyme
A 175 gal/hr powerhead

I plan on getting about 15Ibl of base rock and 5Ibl of live rock.
Will that ratio be ok? I will have live sand, and Also the biozme to kickstart the cycle.

I dont plan on actualy using the hob filters. MAybe with no media, just for flow. Also I am ordering a surface skimmer adapter to modify to hook up to the protien skimer so it collects surface water instead of from lower. Is that a good plan?

I dont plan on realy havign much in terms of fish (it wil be FOWLR). Maybe just a clown, or a solitary fuzzy dwarf lionfish.

Thanks for any input.

[sir_dudeguy]

To Reef Central

first thing, cross "arag-alive" off of your list. It wont do anything for you. Not gonna have any life in it at all, and prolly not even bacteria. YOu're better off just getting plain dry sand. All arag-alive added for me was a ton of amonia and nothing else

The skimmer you've chosen will work great for you

For your test kits, the very much preferred test is salifert brand w/no doubts.

dont know what the biozyme is...but i "think" i recall it being something like the "cycle" product, or something that speeds up the cycle? if it is, i wouldnt bother. Let the live rock do it on its own (which it will).

If i were you, i'd get half live rock and half base rock. so at least 10 of each (but more is better).

For fish, you could keep a pair of regular clowns, and i suggest that more than just one. They're funner when they're in pairs, and they seem to have more fun themselves when paired. The fuzzy lion wont fit imo.

hope this helps, and again, welcome to RC

[Fiddler]

what kind of water will you be using, if your gonna use tap i suggest getting some phosphate removal packs to run in you hob filters ( along with some carbon )

[Timmy44221]

I know most say the bagged livew sand is a waste. It does have an experation date, and MY LFS gets it in fairly fresh. Reguardless, the realy reason I choose it was that I liked the way it looked. So I will probably stick with it for the sake of looks (thanks for warning me thought).

As for the test kit, will my freshwater master test kit be usefull for SW at all? Ill look into that other one thought.

Any other stock suggestion would be great. The issue with live rock, is a money issue. What if I get like 10ilb of base and 5 of live for now, and then add more live later?

Also They Biozyme is only a 1.99 so i figured why not.

[sir_dudeguy]

if you just want black sand...check out drsfostersmith.com. They usually have black dry sand.

your tests....toss the FW tests. They wont be any good for saltwater. Salifert brand is pretty much the best unless you wanna pay 200 bucks or whatever for a lab quality test lol.

For the live rock, you can use only 5 of live rock, and have the other rock be 10 of base, but it will take longer for the rock to all cycle (no, you dont cycle the water or the tank you're cycleing the bacteria that lives on the rock...live rock will cycle its self, thats why you shouldnt bother with the biozyme crap. imo you wont get a proper cycle if you add that w/live rock).

But ya, it will just take longer for the rock to cycle, because theres' less than half the rock that has to get the bacteria to all of the rock. See what i mean? You can still do it, but its gonna take a lot longer and will be longer before you can add anything

[Timmy44221]

I relize the cycle will take longer, which is fine. I dont realy plan on having much in the tank. I just want the life that will be present on the live rock, and some other small critters, then in a few months maybe a fish. I have has FW for years, and this is raly just a test tank for SW. I plan on taking it realy slow. As for the sand, I can get it localy for like $20, and its a black/white, agaronite sand so even with out the bacteria it should be a good substrate. Do you think the biozyme can do harm? agian its only $2.

[sir_dudeguy]

As to wether biozyme will do "harm"...i'm not sure. But i know most of those products are made to take away amonia (or breakt them down, rather). However, during a cycle you WANT amonia to show up. Thats what gets your bacteria going. There will be too much amonia at first, which is why you'll see the spike in it. Then the bacteria will start to grow to balance it out untill there is 0 amonia....once there's 0 amonia, that means it was all broken down into nitrite, so there is now nitrite appearing since none of the bacteria is breaking that down...so again, more bacteria grows to make up for the spike in nitrite. Once amonia and nitrite are at 0, that means your cycle is done, as you may already know, and you've got all your bacteria.

But when you add all those products that are made to reduce amonia...well you're not cycleing the tank. The bacteria needs amoni to cycle...any dead stuff on the live rock will get that going on its own. But then if you're killing the amonia w/a product, then the bacteria wont be able to grow, so technically, your tank wont even be cycled...you just wont have any amonia and you'd have to basically get something else to start the cycle now, such as a dead shrimp.

just my opinion I've found that whenever i try and either hurry something up, or fix it w/some "quick fix" product that the lfs sells me, it ends up backfiring. But whenever i let everything take place naturally, its always been good

[Wrench]

I would stay away from the bottled "Cycling" liquids. My LFS always reccomends Biospira and look at you like you have two heads when you mention a "fishless cycle". If you have the right amount of live rock to introduce a good colony of bacteria you will have better results. I really don't like using any kinds of chemicals unless I absolutely have to.

[Timmy44221]

Cycle, or biozyme is actualy a bacteria culture intended to jump start the colony. It is not a quick fix to reduce ammonia, as it is an actual culture of the bacteria you want.

[sir_dudeguy]

i've got a box of cycle and right on the back it says that it takes out amonia.

Either way, the choice is yours. Many people prefer to just let it go on its own naturally (myself included).

[JustinReef]

I would definitely go natural! I have found over the years that these "cycle" products work ok for freshwater tanks where you have some type of bio balls or ceramic rings for bacteria colonies to make homes on but found they are terrible for Marine set ups with Live Rock. I agree that you will just be mostly removing the ammonia with a product like this and will see a big ammonia spike when you add fish (I have been through this myself). The strongest bacteria colonies will be those that have naturally formed on your LR over time. If you do use that product just be careful you are not fooled into thinking the tank is cycled before it actually is!

I have had some LFS tell me that with these products you can cycle a tank in a week but just because the ammonia and nitrites are gone in a week doesnt mean the tank is cycled! Remember some LFS just want to sell, sell, sell, so the sooner your tank cycles then the sooner you can buy fish from them! There are SO many products out there that claim to do one thing or another (I used to use them all I think) but in the end most of them are either doing nothing or something that will happen if people are just patient!

Well good luck and just make sure you have fun! Saltwater is awesome! I have only kept Saltwater tanks for 3 years now but kept fresh and brackish for many before that and I have never had as much fun with fish as I have with Marine!

[JustinReef]

Oh BTW, I would assume that since the benificial bacteria you need for your cycle are very sensitive that there is no way they could survive in a bottle (they need water flow, correct temp.,oxygen, ect.). So Im not really sure how those products claim to contain benificial bacteria???

[sir_dudeguy]

ya i'm like you justin i dont really see how they could have actual bacteria in there. But i will say that i used cycle on my brothers 29 and it didnt have a good outcome. All amonia and nitrites went away in about a week (like label says lol) and then after a week or 2 of nothing in the tank to let it settle, we added a royal gramma and it died w/in about 5 days..tested water and looky! amonia and nitrite are way up again I went back to the lfs and told them what happened and this is what the guy said "well you have to have fish in there when you use the cycle stuff, otherwise there's nothing to get it going."

So i thought about that...for one you never want to add fish to an uncycled tank to begin with....but if you had to add fish to just get that stuff going....wouldnt that just be the same as buying just the fish to cycle? (i'm not saying to do that tho). idk...just kinda sounds like junk to me (and sure turned out to be junk :P )

[JustinReef]

Exactly what happened to me. I always do fishless cycles. This is basically what I do...(I do not have as much experience as some on this form but this has always worked for me)

Add substrate, LR, Water ect. and good waterflow. Hopefully sump and refuge if using them. I wait for a few days until water clears and test the water. Usually dont get much ammonia yet (I often buy cured LR and I take buckets of water with me to the shop, so it is never out of water for more than a few seconds). I then will add the skimmer and let the tank run this way for a week or so. Test again and adjust calcium, remove phosphates ect. At this point if there is no ammonia I usually add a small piece of shrimp or something to get it going. Wait a few more days and usually get a spike. Let the tank do its thing until amm. and nitrites are 0 and there are some nitrates present. I usually feel that although the tank has "cycled" it will not be a real strong colony of bacteria yet so I just add crabs and snails at this point and monitor water conditions for another two weeks or so. Then if everything is good, water change and I add a fish. Usually start with a chromis or something hardy. Thats basically how I have cycled tanks...probably missed something or someone can add correct me if Im wrong. But I never use any products in the tank besides supplements like calcium. Then make sure you keep ontop of testing whenever you add something new to the tank!!!

[Timmy44221]

Ok here is my revised plan...

Ill use all the same equipment as listed above. And at the momnt there are plans for a sump or fuge.

I have some eggcrate. Should I only put it under the LR or have it go over the whole tank.

The liverock will be fully cured from the LFS (thankfully I have 3 nice LFS close by). It will be roughly 10Ibl of base and 10Ilb of live rock. I get home add the sand and then the rock. BAse rock on bottom. Hook up skimmer, heater, and powerhead and let it go for a few days. Add a ship, let it sit for a week. remove shrimp, let it sit for another two week. Then add a fish and a cleanuo crew. Leave it and enjoy.


One other question. I am in no position to buy a RO/DI system. People have used tap water in tanks for many years, so is it that unacceptable. I have a nice britta filter, I suppose that would help.

[sir_dudeguy]

I have some eggcrate. Should I only put it under the LR or have it go over the whole tank.

not sure if it makes much of a difference, but i'd put it over the whole bottom. You wont see it for one, and in any case, you wont have to go thru the hassle of cutting it up.

Dont put the dead shrimp in tho. again, the live rock already has everything to cycle the rest of the rock. The shrimp isnt gonna be doing anything beneficial. All those methods for getting amonia to get in the tank are more geared towards tanks without live rock where the only filtration would be a canister or a wet/dry filter. The live rock will get bacteria onto the rest of the rock w/time.

RO water. imo, RO isnt really 100% needed for fish only tanks. If you're even considering corals and inverts tho, i wouldnt even waste my time w/tap water. Just go to a water store like watermart or whatever you have by you and get 20 gallons of RO water (get a little bit first, take it home and test for nitrates and stuff first tho....some stores never clean their filters so at that point tap would be basically the same. But for the most part, RO from the store is always gonna be better).

With a fish only tank, its not like you're gonna have to be replenishing the calcium levels or anything because there wont be corals to use them....so imo w/fish only tanks the tank can be much more forgiving and require much less care and whatnot. Heck, my softie reef can go half a month w/all the levels staying perfectly fine, so thats usually when i do water changes...once a month, maybe 2 times. But my point is, you probably wont be needing as many or as big of water changes as you would if you had a reef, so its not like you're gonna go poor spending 25 cents for a gallon of RO from the store...just use that. Even tho tap will probably be perfectly fine for the fish, it will still add nitrates and phosphates most of the time which will give you lots of algae.

[rideelement247]

i work @ petsupermarket and specialize in saltwater fish (as best i can im still in highschool lol)

well ur set up is great, ditch the black sand like the others said....not only will it suck biologically...its not even black. i heard ppl's true testimonies on it saying it comes in greyish whiteish. jus get plain old live sand - better for filtration....the best ration is a nice 75% "coarse-grain" and a 25% "smooth-grain" mixture...best for bacterial growth etc.

DO NOT USE ANY "CYCLING" MATERIAL!!!!!! all that results from these products is an incurable ammonia high...and it REMAINS high....really high =/. just let the tank do its natural thing and throw in some live rock to help add in a source of ammonia to begin a good cycling process.

with the live rock, i'd do a 50/50 between base and straight live rock. if u can ask ur LFS what type of rock they get in - fiji, haitian, caribbean, etc....then it will allow u to learn the quality of ur live rock. haitian live rock is probably the least in quality =/, but also least in price. for a little more u can get an EXCELLENT piece of fiji rock. caribbean is of course, the nicest in my oppinion.

if you are looking cheap: use tap water and throw in some amquel plus to remove chlorines chloramines nitrates nitrites and ammonia from the water...amquel plus is a very good product in my uses of it. just get the saltwater mixing packs from your LFS...i recommend you to get a mixture for a 30 gallon - it leaves u some spare salt for future water changes =). when mixing your salt for the tank only dose it about 75-80% of what it says to....for your 20 only add in enough salt for a 15 g...most salinity tends to spike after mixture.

if you can afford more towards the water: some stores sell RO water at the perfect salinity all filtered ready to go....its about 50 cents a gallon, dont forget you will still need to buy salt when u do water changes.

make sure to get a good siphon for your sand...when siphoning the sand, angle it at a 45-60 degree angle from the vertical so that you don't suck up sand with the water.

make sure to snag a good buffer solution for the pH - i recommend marine buffer - its super safe because even if you overdose it it only maintains it to 8.3 - pretty neato right there.


other than that i wish you good luck! and don't forget: patience, patience, patience.

also, introducing fish doesnt have to be a waiting process (although for the health and safety and happiness of your fish it should be noted that you keep in mind the recommended cycling time of the tank to complete, and also acclimation period) but with my fish i added them after the tank had been establish for 4 days and all are happy and healthy, i have a flame angel, half black angel, unicorn tang, lawnmower blenny, 4 peppermint shrimp, a goldhead sleeper goby, a mandarin dragonfish and a tomato clown. i added all of these on the 4th day, after on the 2nd day adding live rock. the process CAN be rushed and modified..but not recommended unless you know exactly what to watch for and how to cure it fast.

one last note: i know a good 99% of ppl claim that you cannot house 2 angelfish together, but i believe this is very inaccurate as long as you introduce them all (within a close time period, say u want to add in 3 or 4 angels into ur tank, dont introduce 1 and then 3 the month later, etc...try to do it all at once or within a week of putting the first specimen in) just make sure to research the fish and look for passive ones. my flame did nip at the half black...but after a while he realized it was useless...the guy was actually a little bigger than he was =).

feel free to msg me or w/e if u have any other questions =)