Why does my tank resemble a snail graveyard?

marino420td · 11/30/2006, 07:17 PM

In my 120 I have (had) 100 astrea snails. I also have blue leg hermits, cerith snails, nassarious snails, and few fish and sps corals.

Over the past 4 months or so many of my astreas have died. I can't tell if they died because they continually fall onto their shell and can't turn over, or if the hermits are killing them for their shells. Or is it a possible water parameter problem.

My parameters are:

SG- 1.026 (it was 1.030 because my hydrometer reads low- Finally bought a refractometer)

Temp- 80 to 83 degrees

PH- 8.1
Alk- 2.5 meg/l
Calcium 425 ppm
Phosphates- no trace on my test kit

Ammonia, nitrate and nitrite- 0

Ryanqk · 11/30/2006, 07:22 PM

maybe you have a mantis shrimp? are you finding any dead hermits or is it just the snails?

Salamander · 11/30/2006, 07:40 PM

There is a mollusk munching worm that I can't remember what its called right now. Unfortunately I have a few.

They kinda look like yellow centipedes. And no, they are not bristle worms. These come out a night and secrete a mucus over the snails to parylize/kill them and then chow down. They move extremely fast and are very sensitive to movement so its hard to even get a look at them.

If you ever notice a clear mucus on s snail in the morning you just might have em too. PM me and I'll get back to you about what they're called. I have it somewhere.

Octoberfest · 11/30/2006, 08:05 PM

Might have a polyclad flatworm. They are larger, the one I had was light brown. Killed almost all my snails before I found it. Once I removed it my snail death problems ended.

supertech3 · 11/30/2006, 10:29 PM

I stopped buying hermits because I was always losing snails and had seen the crabs on top of them before waiting to take their shell, and some do die from being unable to flip back over, do you see the hermits sporting new shells? Your parameters look fine.

marino420td · 11/30/2006, 10:39 PM

I think it is the hermits. But these astreas are always flipped over. I used to flip them back everyday but that got old. I think the hermits see them flipped and take advantage of the opportunity.

But I thought I read somewhere that higher salinities was fatal to snails. Could the SG of 1.030 have caused this? Only the astreas seem to be dieing.

supertech3 · 11/30/2006, 10:46 PM

I think it is the two factors of flipping and hermits, because it is the same that has happened to me and it got old to flip them over for me also. I have not bought any of the astreas in a while because of the two factors

derekman · 11/30/2006, 11:46 PM

IME blue legs don't attack snails. I've seen the big claw ones do it. snails are very sensitive to water chemistry changes so your SG may have played a part but considering it was over a period of time I'm guessing not. I'm thinking you got them at around the same time and maybe they are just getting old or getting stuck in the sand. I went BB and snail mortality is a thing of the past in my tank. I have no extra shells in my tank and the blue legs and scarlet reef hermits have not touched the astreas. I'm not familiar with the worm predators but I would not count that out even if it is rare.

Aqua Keepers · 11/30/2006, 11:56 PM

derekman, Why do you think the snail mortality rate has gon down since going BB?

HBtank · 11/30/2006, 11:59 PM

I think hermits get a bad rap. I have a huge hermit that has never touched one thing. I have another large hermit who is also peacefull.

In fact I have not lost one snail (except the poor turbo in the powerhead), I have astrea, turbo, nassarius and cerith.

Also odd is that neither my astreas or turbos ever really need flipping...

djperezo · 12/01/2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pito
derekman, Why do you think the snail mortality rate has gon down since going BB?

Snail mortality dropped for me too after going BB. With lots of flow in a BB, and no sand, snails get easily blown to a rock or the side of a tank to upright themselves.

Aqua Keepers · 12/01/2006, 11:48 AM

With enough flow to keep detrious suspended in a BB system, are snails really needed? I'm just wondering because I'm thinking of keeping a Tusk when I get set up. Sorry to get off topic.

djperezo · 12/01/2006, 01:33 PM

Well the rock, if cooked, will store detritus over time, and the flow will keep it suspended as it sheds. But flow won't get to everything, I don't care what anybody says, there are just areas where the flow won't be strong enough to get the crap out of the rock work. Thats why I got mostly cerith snails to eat detritus on the rock where the flow is not strong enough.

marino420td · 12/01/2006, 02:57 PM

Here are some pics of the snail devastation

I really believe it is because they flip over on the sand and can't right themselves. Then the crabs have a defensless victim.

notenoughtanks · 12/01/2006, 03:01 PM

you probably have a badass gorilla crab, I had a few and they were knocking down snails like flies. Also if you had a mantis, he would be taking the snails to his"den" to kill and eat them, not leaving them out in the open

easye123 · 12/01/2006, 03:10 PM

do you have a wrasse? i just had to take one out of my tank because he killed all my snails

kneepuck · 12/01/2006, 03:30 PM

I don't think I have any predation problems but I do have snails die. Snails aren't the smartest guys around. They get upended easily and die. Probably the reason beaches are made of shells. Also some snail suppliers are from the the Northwest (cooler Pacific water). These cold water snails don't live long in 80 deg. water.

marino420td · 12/01/2006, 03:44 PM

I do have a fairy wrasse but I have never seen him picking on any snails.

2farNorth · 12/01/2006, 04:20 PM

Dumb question, but is there anything for them to eat in the tank? The rock, and glass look pretty clean.....

aztbs · 12/01/2006, 04:28 PM

My last batch of astreas from a group order had pyramid snails. When they are on the glass, check around the edge of their shell for little tiny white cone shaped snails (they look a little like tiny white ceriths). They are parasitic to the astreas.

I have tons of hermits and they never kill the snails. I have seen my rabbitfish eat one that fell over though.

stan zemanek · 12/01/2006, 06:21 PM

hey marino how goes it? i had the same problem with my snails dieing, i bought a large critter package from reefermadness and everything was going fine until i started to notice more and more empty snail shells. many times i caught my hermits on top of the snails shell eating the inards out. the only thing is i have never actually seen my hermits tip a snail over. to me it would seem hard for them to do, just think how hard it is for a human to pull one off the glass. the other thing that i saw was one day when i came down first thing in the morning and looked into my tank was all my hermits (25 or so) munching away on a giant bristle worm

now i don't know if perhaps the bristle worm was tipping over my snails, and the hermits were just eating the left overs, or are the hermits the true predators in the tank

p.s. hows those bubble traps workin out for ya?

jeffbrig · 12/01/2006, 06:41 PM

I think you may have too many snails. I have a similar number of astreas in my 250g, and I've only lost a handful. And I KNOW that I have a mantis shrimp in there as well. My mantis loved picking off small cerith snails, but doesn't mess with the astreas.

sasscuba · 12/01/2006, 06:49 PM

My blue legs were constantly eating my snails.....I removed all hermits and am going with a mixture of snails only.

11/30/2006, 07:17 PM	#1
marino420td Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cape Girardeau, MO Posts: 2,529	Why does my tank resemble a snail graveyard? In my 120 I have (had) 100 astrea snails. I also have blue leg hermits, cerith snails, nassarious snails, and few fish and sps corals. Over the past 4 months or so many of my astreas have died. I can't tell if they died because they continually fall onto their shell and can't turn over, or if the hermits are killing them for their shells. Or is it a possible water parameter problem. My parameters are: SG- 1.026 (it was 1.030 because my hydrometer reads low- Finally bought a refractometer) Temp- 80 to 83 degrees PH- 8.1 Alk- 2.5 meg/l Calcium 425 ppm Phosphates- no trace on my test kit Ammonia, nitrate and nitrite- 0

11/30/2006, 07:22 PM	#2
Ryanqk Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,381	maybe you have a mantis shrimp? are you finding any dead hermits or is it just the snails? __________________ MOM! I'm God Of The Sea People! Behold my tiny minions gloveling at my likeness! Current Tank Info: 75gl display, 20gl long fuge, CPR overflow, Octopuss NW150 skimmer, 4 x 110w VHO T12's and supplemental actinic, ongoing projects...

11/30/2006, 07:40 PM	#3
Salamander Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Flagstaff, Arizona Posts: 2,103	There is a mollusk munching worm that I can't remember what its called right now. Unfortunately I have a few. They kinda look like yellow centipedes. And no, they are not bristle worms. These come out a night and secrete a mucus over the snails to parylize/kill them and then chow down. They move extremely fast and are very sensitive to movement so its hard to even get a look at them. If you ever notice a clear mucus on s snail in the morning you just might have em too. PM me and I'll get back to you about what they're called. I have it somewhere. __________________ I feel more like myself now than I did before. Current Tank Info: 120g mixed reef, 2 x 250W DE MH, 2 x 54w T5, MSX 200 SKimmer, 2 Koralia 4's, 40g fuge/sump, QT

11/30/2006, 08:05 PM	#4
Octoberfest Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NC Posts: 1,350	Might have a polyclad flatworm. They are larger, the one I had was light brown. Killed almost all my snails before I found it. Once I removed it my snail death problems ended. __________________ 29 gallon bio-cube with 150w metal halide sunpod fixture, stock 14 gallon bio-cube

11/30/2006, 11:46 PM	#8
derekman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 245	IME blue legs don't attack snails. I've seen the big claw ones do it. snails are very sensitive to water chemistry changes so your SG may have played a part but considering it was over a period of time I'm guessing not. I'm thinking you got them at around the same time and maybe they are just getting old or getting stuck in the sand. I went BB and snail mortality is a thing of the past in my tank. I have no extra shells in my tank and the blue legs and scarlet reef hermits have not touched the astreas. I'm not familiar with the worm predators but I would not count that out even if it is rare. __________________ Derek Current Tank Info: 82 total gallons reef, 390w PC 150 MH, LPS SPS

11/30/2006, 10:29 PM	#5
supertech3 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: El Paso Posts: 1,206	I stopped buying hermits because I was always losing snails and had seen the crabs on top of them before waiting to take their shell, and some do die from being unable to flip back over, do you see the hermits sporting new shells? Your parameters look fine.

11/30/2006, 10:39 PM	#6
marino420td Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cape Girardeau, MO Posts: 2,529	I think it is the hermits. But these astreas are always flipped over. I used to flip them back everyday but that got old. I think the hermits see them flipped and take advantage of the opportunity. But I thought I read somewhere that higher salinities was fatal to snails. Could the SG of 1.030 have caused this? Only the astreas seem to be dieing.

11/30/2006, 10:46 PM	#7
supertech3 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: El Paso Posts: 1,206	I think it is the two factors of flipping and hermits, because it is the same that has happened to me and it got old to flip them over for me also. I have not bought any of the astreas in a while because of the two factors

11/30/2006, 11:56 PM	#9
Aqua Keepers Moved On Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Clearwater,Fl Posts: 2,915	derekman, Why do you think the snail mortality rate has gon down since going BB?

11/30/2006, 11:59 PM	#10
HBtank Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 2,957	I think hermits get a bad rap. I have a huge hermit that has never touched one thing. I have another large hermit who is also peacefull. In fact I have not lost one snail (except the poor turbo in the powerhead), I have astrea, turbo, nassarius and cerith. Also odd is that neither my astreas or turbos ever really need flipping... __________________ 80g Aiptasia dominated reef tank.. with fish and now a bunch of berghia! Current Tank Info: 80g tank, re-starting a reef after a zoanthid nudibranch plauge, followed by months of steady and unstoppable STN/RTN, crashed; stayed FOWLR for a couple years, currently an aiptasia dominated reef tank with fishies and BERGHIA

12/01/2006, 11:48 AM	#12
Aqua Keepers Moved On Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Clearwater,Fl Posts: 2,915	With enough flow to keep detrious suspended in a BB system, are snails really needed? I'm just wondering because I'm thinking of keeping a Tusk when I get set up. Sorry to get off topic.

12/01/2006, 01:33 PM	#13
djperezo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 223	Well the rock, if cooked, will store detritus over time, and the flow will keep it suspended as it sheds. But flow won't get to everything, I don't care what anybody says, there are just areas where the flow won't be strong enough to get the crap out of the rock work. Thats why I got mostly cerith snails to eat detritus on the rock where the flow is not strong enough.

12/01/2006, 02:57 PM	#14
marino420td Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cape Girardeau, MO Posts: 2,529	Here are some pics of the snail devastation I really believe it is because they flip over on the sand and can't right themselves. Then the crabs have a defensless victim.

12/01/2006, 03:01 PM	#15
notenoughtanks Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Minneapolis MN Posts: 330	you probably have a badass gorilla crab, I had a few and they were knocking down snails like flies. Also if you had a mantis, he would be taking the snails to his"den" to kill and eat them, not leaving them out in the open

12/01/2006, 03:10 PM	#16
easye123 Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,505	do you have a wrasse? i just had to take one out of my tank because he killed all my snails __________________ Loading...... Current Tank Info: 90g BB sps 30g sump. 2x175w mh. 2x110w vho act. Vortech. tunze 6025. ER rs 135. TLF phos. ACjr

12/01/2006, 03:30 PM	#17
kneepuck Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Nicholasville, KY Posts: 80	I don't think I have any predation problems but I do have snails die. Snails aren't the smartest guys around. They get upended easily and die. Probably the reason beaches are made of shells. Also some snail suppliers are from the the Northwest (cooler Pacific water). These cold water snails don't live long in 80 deg. water. __________________ "what you are, screams so loudly, I can't hear what you say" Emerson Current Tank Info: 90g bare bottom, 20g sump in basement pump rm

12/01/2006, 03:44 PM	#18
marino420td Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cape Girardeau, MO Posts: 2,529	I do have a fairy wrasse but I have never seen him picking on any snails.

12/01/2006, 04:20 PM	#19
2farNorth Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula, Michigan Posts: 929	Dumb question, but is there anything for them to eat in the tank? The rock, and glass look pretty clean.....

12/01/2006, 04:28 PM	#20
aztbs Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 4,492	My last batch of astreas from a group order had pyramid snails. When they are on the glass, check around the edge of their shell for little tiny white cone shaped snails (they look a little like tiny white ceriths). They are parasitic to the astreas. I have tons of hermits and they never kill the snails. I have seen my rabbitfish eat one that fell over though.

12/01/2006, 06:21 PM	#21
stan zemanek Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: new jersey Posts: 524	hey marino how goes it? i had the same problem with my snails dieing, i bought a large critter package from reefermadness and everything was going fine until i started to notice more and more empty snail shells. many times i caught my hermits on top of the snails shell eating the inards out. the only thing is i have never actually seen my hermits tip a snail over. to me it would seem hard for them to do, just think how hard it is for a human to pull one off the glass. the other thing that i saw was one day when i came down first thing in the morning and looked into my tank was all my hermits (25 or so) munching away on a giant bristle worm now i don't know if perhaps the bristle worm was tipping over my snails, and the hermits were just eating the left overs, or are the hermits the true predators in the tank p.s. hows those bubble traps workin out for ya?

12/01/2006, 06:41 PM	#22
jeffbrig Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 5,548	I think you may have too many snails. I have a similar number of astreas in my 250g, and I've only lost a handful. And I KNOW that I have a mantis shrimp in there as well. My mantis loved picking off small cerith snails, but doesn't mess with the astreas. __________________ Beware the power of stupid people in large groups..... Current Tank Info: formerly 250g room divider

12/01/2006, 06:49 PM	#23
sasscuba Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Owasso, Oklahoma Posts: 990	My blue legs were constantly eating my snails.....I removed all hermits and am going with a mixture of snails only.