is a dart too much flow for return pump for a 150g?

golfbomber · 12/07/2006, 03:24 PM

planning to keep sps, anyone using this pump for a return on this size? should i go for a lower flow pump?

jeffbrig · 12/07/2006, 03:45 PM

The only question will be whether your overflow and sump can handle it without bubbles or excessive noise. The amount of flow will not be the limiting factor (provided you use multiple return exits).

foshizzle · 12/07/2006, 04:07 PM

put the dart on a closed loop. no reason to go so big on the return

MIKE NY · 12/07/2006, 07:00 PM

I'm using one on mine, but I'm pumping the return back up from my basement.

panic · 12/07/2006, 09:10 PM

The Dart is better suited for a closed loop since it is not pressure rated. 3000gph is quite a bit for a return. Under 1250gph tops after head should do it.

golfbomber · 12/08/2006, 12:07 AM

what is the difference between pressure rated and not? is a non pressure rated pump no good for a return pump?

my tank is a three side viewable, so no way to put a closed loop unfortunately that is why i wanted lots flow from my return.

my overflow has 2 drains that are 2 inches each, is this not big enough for the flow?

bradleyj · 12/08/2006, 12:16 AM

That 2 inch return will work fine. I have a dart for my return and another dart on a closed loop in my 225. If your sump is big and you can get rid of the bubbles before it goes back to your pump, you'll love it.

golfbomber · 12/08/2006, 12:41 AM

hey brad do you lose a lot of head pressure since when the water enters the tank?

as well my sumps return chamber is 12x27 by 10 inches of water. my whole sump is 36 inches long by 27 inches wide.

thanks for the input guys!

shelburn61 · 12/08/2006, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bradleyj
That 2 inch return will work fine. I have a dart for my return and another dart on a closed loop in my 225. If your sump is big and you can get rid of the bubbles before it goes back to your pump, you'll love it.

I have never seen the benefit of huge sump turnover. Not knocking, just wondering why you like it so much?

hahnmeister · 12/08/2006, 02:04 AM

Yeah, I would pick up an eheim 1260 for the return pump, and save that dart for a closed loop.

A pressure rated pump is designed to pump water up heights w/o drastic reduction in flow. Typical pressure pumps will have smaller impeller shrouds, faster speeds sometimes, and smaller outlet to aid in the pressure building.

Non-pressure rated pumps, like the Dart, cant handle pumping up great distances as well as pressure rated (or running a beckett skimmer, or a flow eductor, etc). They are usually designed with larger inlets/outlets, larger impeller shrouds, and slower motors with large impellers. They are designed to move the most water for the least amount of wattage.

What it comes down to is this... putting a non-pressure rated pump on as a sump return often kills the flow. A 3000gph pump might drop down to 1000gph, or less, if it has to pump water up 4-5'. A pressure rated pump of about the same wattage might only push 1800gph at most, but as you start to add head-pressure, like from a basement sump return of 10' below, you would most likely still end up with 1500gph.

The other thing in question here is how much flow you really need. There is little to no benefit to having that much water running through the sump. A 150g tank could be run with only 300gph going through the sump, and then a majority of the flow in the main display can come from powerheads and closed loops (the intake and outlets are all to and from the tank to negate head loss from gravity). You could run a much smaller pump as your sump return... like a 600gph pump (eheim 1260), and then use that dart on a closed loop to provide 'in tank' circulation. That way, you will be able to get that Dart's output very close to its maximum output of 3600gph.

golfbomber · 12/08/2006, 11:47 PM

any1 else?

twon8 · 12/09/2006, 04:31 AM

running a dart as a return on that size tank, will lead to microbubbles imo.

i agree with everything hahnmeister said; why waste the money on the pump, extra electricity, etc. ..

golfbomber · 12/10/2006, 09:59 PM

on darts website you can valve down the flow and save electricity all the way down to 400 gph. the reason why i want so much flow is that i cant put in a closed loop because it is a three side viewable tank and the one side cant have any more holes b/c of glass strength issues. i will end up with around 3000 gph with the head pressure. i plan to put filter socks to stop bubbles as well as baffles.

Lo0seR · 12/10/2006, 10:41 PM

Good question on dart to a 150 gal. tank. I just finished mine and would do it no other way it just plain out does any other option out there. Trial and error 4-1" returns and have to have dual sump action for the micro bubbles, just make sure you have a gate valve for the overflow that needs to be 2" and you are set for the best of the best, at least I think. O ya tank is 2'x4'x30"tall.
It was hard to find an area for the kind of tank I wanted, and this tiny little area was the only place for it in my house, so I made the most out of what room I had for my dream tank and what would work for me. Getto stand will get a hollywood style fake panels that will hide the truth on the stand setup. I challenge anyone to do so much with so little space on a tank this size. I read for over a year on various sites and this is the best I could do. I just finished a few hours ago putting it together and now doing the week long run in order to see if any problems come up. But so far so good.

viggen · 12/10/2006, 10:43 PM

DON'T DO IT

LOL....

I tried a Dart on my 260g which has a sump that's pretty much a 75 gallon wet/dry filter. 48x18x24

Anyways, the sound of the water going through the overflow reminded me of Niagra Falls.... & the microbubble were HORRIBLE!!!

I would use a pump like the Eheim listed above or if you want a silent external pump get a velocity T4. That is what I use on my 260g as well as my 90g reef & they are .... silent

Probably flows 1000 ish gph with the few feet of head pressure.

With the Dart, do a closed loop like others suggested. You really do not need to drill holes anywhere to hook it up. You can run 1 in or larger PVS pipe & loop it over the back for intake as well as the return. I did that years ago on my old 150g FO tank that I ran a ocean clear canister filter to. Worked great!!

The only problem is you would want the pipe to be large enough to not restrict the flow. So probably several 1 in intakes or 2 1.5 in or a single 2 in. Return can be done several ways, preferably with a oceanmotion 4 way

Lo0seR · 12/10/2006, 11:05 PM

Funny all I hear is my Dart run and have absolutley zero micro bubbles on return. The key is dual sump, make a duroso overflow on the first sump into the second sump. No bubbles,no sound it works great.

delv · 12/10/2006, 11:43 PM

Got a Dart on my 150....no micro bubbles (no filter sox or mechanical filtration either) at all It's a large custom made sump though...if it were smaller or baffled less I would imagine there would be micro bubbles though.
I like that I can get any detritous out of my tank (I ocassionally blast the rocks w/an extra Tunze 6100) and into my sump for siphoning.

d.

frazier · 12/10/2006, 11:50 PM

I'm going to use a dart on a closed loop and use a snapper for return on my 180g might want to check it out if you want to stick with the seq. pumps...

smklaw · 12/10/2006, 11:53 PM

This might sound like a dumb question, but doesn'y anybody worry about snails, fish, etc. being sucked inot a closed-loop intake?

viggen · 12/11/2006, 07:17 AM

closed loop would have a screen on it so -hopefully- nothing will be sucked in

my sump definantly was a horrible design for the flow of a dart. Since it's a wet/dry it jst made the bubble situation worse because the wet/dry part could not keep up with the flow thus the water overflowed causing more bubbles,

Like others stated it can definantly be done, just didn't work for my setup. I have used hammerheads as return pumps with no issues

jeffbrig · 12/11/2006, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by viggen
DON'T DO IT LOL....

I tried a Dart on my 260g which has a sump that's pretty much a 75 gallon wet/dry filter.

the sound of the water going through the overflow reminded me of Niagra Falls.... & the microbubble were HORRIBLE!!!

It CAN be done, and there are several examples out there. I run a 4200SEQ12 (slightly more flow than a Dart) as my return pump. I'm pushing ~2400gph through my 90g sump without issue. It took a few modifications, but I was able to devise a system where it's both quiet and bubble free.

RichConley · 12/11/2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by golfbomber
on darts website you can valve down the flow and save electricity all the way down to 400 gph. the reason why i want so much flow is that i cant put in a closed loop because it is a three side viewable tank and the one side cant have any more holes b/c of glass strength issues. i will end up with around 3000 gph with the head pressure. i plan to put filter socks to stop bubbles as well as baffles.

At 400gph, the dart still uses over 130w. How is 400gph at 130w saving electricity?

toastman · 12/11/2006, 02:43 PM

It will be fine, I run the barracuda on a 125 with a rubbermaid 100 gallon sump, no filter socks, no problems with microbubbles

hahnmeister · 12/11/2006, 07:11 PM

You can get a Pan World 40px? that does 48o gph at a very decent head-rating (I mean high head for 480gph), and only 45watts. Thats a good return pump.

12/07/2006, 03:24 PM	#1
golfbomber Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: canada Posts: 106	is a dart too much flow for return pump for a 150g? planning to keep sps, anyone using this pump for a return on this size? should i go for a lower flow pump?

12/07/2006, 03:45 PM	#2
jeffbrig Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 5,548	The only question will be whether your overflow and sump can handle it without bubbles or excessive noise. The amount of flow will not be the limiting factor (provided you use multiple return exits). __________________ Beware the power of stupid people in large groups..... Current Tank Info: formerly 250g room divider Last edited by jeffbrig; 12/07/2006 at 04:36 PM.

12/07/2006, 07:00 PM	#4
MIKE NY Two Decade club Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Franklin Square, N.Y. Posts: 4,381	I'm using one on mine, but I'm pumping the return back up from my basement. __________________ Proud LIRA Member February 2011 Manhattan Reefs TOTM Current Tank Info: 170 gal Reef, 20 gal frag/reef,90 gal fuge, 65 gal sump, 2-250 Radiums on Hamilton M80 HQIs, T5 actincs, Vertex in280 skimmer, MRC-2 Cal Reactor, Reeflo return pump

12/08/2006, 12:07 AM	#6
golfbomber Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: canada Posts: 106	what is the difference between pressure rated and not? is a non pressure rated pump no good for a return pump? my tank is a three side viewable, so no way to put a closed loop unfortunately that is why i wanted lots flow from my return. my overflow has 2 drains that are 2 inches each, is this not big enough for the flow? __________________ If it doesn't involve productivity don't waste my time! Current Tank Info: 48x30x30

12/08/2006, 12:16 AM	#7
bradleyj Reefkeeping Mag Staff Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Murray, Utah Posts: 3,454	That 2 inch return will work fine. I have a dart for my return and another dart on a closed loop in my 225. If your sump is big and you can get rid of the bubbles before it goes back to your pump, you'll love it. __________________ Murray, Utah 335G reef, 72" Maristar, Deltec AP702, PF601S , 2 Darts 4Vortech MP40's 18,000 Gph Feb, 2012 RC TOTM Current Tank Info: 335g Leemar

12/07/2006, 04:07 PM	#3
foshizzle Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 483	put the dart on a closed loop. no reason to go so big on the return

12/07/2006, 09:10 PM	#5
panic Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 802	The Dart is better suited for a closed loop since it is not pressure rated. 3000gph is quite a bit for a return. Under 1250gph tops after head should do it.

12/08/2006, 12:41 AM	#8
golfbomber Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: canada Posts: 106	hey brad do you lose a lot of head pressure since when the water enters the tank? as well my sumps return chamber is 12x27 by 10 inches of water. my whole sump is 36 inches long by 27 inches wide. thanks for the input guys! __________________ If it doesn't involve productivity don't waste my time! Current Tank Info: 48x30x30

12/08/2006, 02:04 AM	#10
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Yeah, I would pick up an eheim 1260 for the return pump, and save that dart for a closed loop. A pressure rated pump is designed to pump water up heights w/o drastic reduction in flow. Typical pressure pumps will have smaller impeller shrouds, faster speeds sometimes, and smaller outlet to aid in the pressure building. Non-pressure rated pumps, like the Dart, cant handle pumping up great distances as well as pressure rated (or running a beckett skimmer, or a flow eductor, etc). They are usually designed with larger inlets/outlets, larger impeller shrouds, and slower motors with large impellers. They are designed to move the most water for the least amount of wattage. What it comes down to is this... putting a non-pressure rated pump on as a sump return often kills the flow. A 3000gph pump might drop down to 1000gph, or less, if it has to pump water up 4-5'. A pressure rated pump of about the same wattage might only push 1800gph at most, but as you start to add head-pressure, like from a basement sump return of 10' below, you would most likely still end up with 1500gph. The other thing in question here is how much flow you really need. There is little to no benefit to having that much water running through the sump. A 150g tank could be run with only 300gph going through the sump, and then a majority of the flow in the main display can come from powerheads and closed loops (the intake and outlets are all to and from the tank to negate head loss from gravity). You could run a much smaller pump as your sump return... like a 600gph pump (eheim 1260), and then use that dart on a closed loop to provide 'in tank' circulation. That way, you will be able to get that Dart's output very close to its maximum output of 3600gph.

12/08/2006, 11:47 PM	#11
golfbomber Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: canada Posts: 106	any1 else? __________________ If it doesn't involve productivity don't waste my time! Current Tank Info: 48x30x30

12/09/2006, 04:31 AM	#12
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	running a dart as a return on that size tank, will lead to microbubbles imo. i agree with everything hahnmeister said; why waste the money on the pump, extra electricity, etc. .. __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

12/10/2006, 09:59 PM	#13
golfbomber Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: canada Posts: 106	on darts website you can valve down the flow and save electricity all the way down to 400 gph. the reason why i want so much flow is that i cant put in a closed loop because it is a three side viewable tank and the one side cant have any more holes b/c of glass strength issues. i will end up with around 3000 gph with the head pressure. i plan to put filter socks to stop bubbles as well as baffles. __________________ If it doesn't involve productivity don't waste my time! Current Tank Info: 48x30x30

12/10/2006, 10:41 PM	#14
Lo0seR Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: La Mesa, Ca. Posts: 443	Good question on dart to a 150 gal. tank. I just finished mine and would do it no other way it just plain out does any other option out there. Trial and error 4-1" returns and have to have dual sump action for the micro bubbles, just make sure you have a gate valve for the overflow that needs to be 2" and you are set for the best of the best, at least I think. O ya tank is 2'x4'x30"tall. It was hard to find an area for the kind of tank I wanted, and this tiny little area was the only place for it in my house, so I made the most out of what room I had for my dream tank and what would work for me. Getto stand will get a hollywood style fake panels that will hide the truth on the stand setup. I challenge anyone to do so much with so little space on a tank this size. I read for over a year on various sites and this is the best I could do. I just finished a few hours ago putting it together and now doing the week long run in order to see if any problems come up. But so far so good. Last edited by Lo0seR; 12/10/2006 at 10:55 PM.

12/10/2006, 10:43 PM	#15
viggen Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 2,213	DON'T DO IT LOL.... I tried a Dart on my 260g which has a sump that's pretty much a 75 gallon wet/dry filter. 48x18x24 Anyways, the sound of the water going through the overflow reminded me of Niagra Falls.... & the microbubble were HORRIBLE!!! I would use a pump like the Eheim listed above or if you want a silent external pump get a velocity T4. That is what I use on my 260g as well as my 90g reef & they are .... silent Probably flows 1000 ish gph with the few feet of head pressure. With the Dart, do a closed loop like others suggested. You really do not need to drill holes anywhere to hook it up. You can run 1 in or larger PVS pipe & loop it over the back for intake as well as the return. I did that years ago on my old 150g FO tank that I ran a ocean clear canister filter to. Worked great!! The only problem is you would want the pipe to be large enough to not restrict the flow. So probably several 1 in intakes or 2 1.5 in or a single 2 in. Return can be done several ways, preferably with a oceanmotion 4 way __________________ A tub of fish

12/10/2006, 11:05 PM	#16
Lo0seR Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: La Mesa, Ca. Posts: 443	Funny all I hear is my Dart run and have absolutley zero micro bubbles on return. The key is dual sump, make a duroso overflow on the first sump into the second sump. No bubbles,no sound it works great. Last edited by Lo0seR; 12/10/2006 at 11:26 PM.

12/10/2006, 11:43 PM	#17
delv Moved On Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: The BK, NYC Posts: 1,048	Got a Dart on my 150....no micro bubbles (no filter sox or mechanical filtration either) at all It's a large custom made sump though...if it were smaller or baffled less I would imagine there would be micro bubbles though. I like that I can get any detritous out of my tank (I ocassionally blast the rocks w/an extra Tunze 6100) and into my sump for siphoning. d.

12/10/2006, 11:50 PM	#18
frazier Moved On Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: KY Posts: 309	I'm going to use a dart on a closed loop and use a snapper for return on my 180g might want to check it out if you want to stick with the seq. pumps...

12/10/2006, 11:53 PM	#19
smklaw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 106	This might sound like a dumb question, but doesn'y anybody worry about snails, fish, etc. being sucked inot a closed-loop intake? __________________ Scott Current Tank Info: 160 corner, 225 and currently planning/pricing 325-400

12/11/2006, 07:17 AM	#20
viggen Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 2,213	closed loop would have a screen on it so -hopefully- nothing will be sucked in my sump definantly was a horrible design for the flow of a dart. Since it's a wet/dry it jst made the bubble situation worse because the wet/dry part could not keep up with the flow thus the water overflowed causing more bubbles, Like others stated it can definantly be done, just didn't work for my setup. I have used hammerheads as return pumps with no issues __________________ A tub of fish

12/11/2006, 02:43 PM	#23
toastman Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Lebanon, Ohio Posts: 164	It will be fine, I run the barracuda on a 125 with a rubbermaid 100 gallon sump, no filter socks, no problems with microbubbles

12/11/2006, 07:11 PM	#24
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	You can get a Pan World 40px? that does 48o gph at a very decent head-rating (I mean high head for 480gph), and only 45watts. Thats a good return pump.