What my LFS said

saltyguy · 01/12/2007, 04:17 PM

I just got back from my LFS. They said that if I have LR and LS that I wouldn't need a filter. That dosen't sound right. Whats up?

miamishrip · 01/12/2007, 04:20 PM

if you have enough LR and LS i would imagine you could just run a good protein skimmer and plenty of Power heads maybe a fuge?

salty3 · 01/12/2007, 04:21 PM

Some people only use lr so yes that is right, however I personal like a filter to get the solid particals out of the water.

danch · 01/12/2007, 04:22 PM

That's odd - their advice matches what most of the more experienced people here say! They might be a keeper!

JeffDubya · 01/12/2007, 04:24 PM

Well... it's not as cut and dry as that, because the LR and LS are a NATURAL biological filter. It's not like you're not using one, it's just not made of plastic.

But it's refreshing to see someone from an LFS that is encouraging his customers to build a reef tank the natural way...

But agreed. LR / LS / and a protien skimmer is all you really need for a good starter tank. You didn't mention how large of a setup you were thinking about...

saltyguy · 01/12/2007, 04:37 PM

Well what if I pump water from my 20 into a 10 with LR and LS would that work. That way I could put my equipment in the 10gal.

TekCat · 01/12/2007, 05:12 PM

This is common "sump" design, where you have display tank (in your case 20), and sump (in your case 10) hidden somewhere in stand, where you could put all your equipment, etc...

check www.melevsreef.com for better explanation and illustrations on how sump works, etc...

good luck

papagimp · 01/12/2007, 05:18 PM

Saltyguy, everyone else kinda answered ya, but let me clarify for ya a bit: When you use a store bought hang on the back type filter, with a "bio-pad" of sorts, these pads develop the beneficial bacteria that actually "cycle" the nirogenous compounds in our tank, the ammonia, nitrite, ect. ect. Aquarium keeping 101 stuff. This is exactly what Live rock and sand does. The rock is porous enough as is the sand to support sufficient amounts of bacteria to filter the tanks. In fact, it's far more efficient than a bio-pad since the surface area for the bacteria is in such abundance. You could technically do this with a freshwater setup, but most rock that would be safe to use, isn't porous enough, and the stuff that is, will leach the wrong stuff into your tank.

But all that said, live rock and live sand is a biological filter. you will still want some form of mechanical filtering, this can be a simple as a prefitler sponge on a powerhead, that you regularly rinse the sponge off. If you rinse this sponge while performing water changes, using the old tank water for the rinse, this will keep most the bacteria colonized on the sponge intact and will act as another form of bio filtering as well as mechanical filtering.

saltyguy · 01/12/2007, 05:19 PM

I have been to melevs. I thought that I would have to have baffles, refuge, and a return area. Is it really that simple to have just another tank like my 10gal?

papagimp · 01/12/2007, 05:22 PM

Salty guy, the reason for baffles is primarily to help reduce microbubbles from the incoming water making their way back up the return on into the display. if you do a low enough return this usually isn't a problem. Baffles are also used to section off areas of the sump. My DIY fuge is a glass 10g tank, I stuff some baffles in with silicone just for kicks, but their probably not needed. it is that simple. Alot of this hobby is alot more simple than most people think. Just takes the time to learn this.

saltyguy · 01/12/2007, 05:26 PM

Well thanks. I guess I have been stressing to much about it. Thanks for the info!

TekCat · 01/12/2007, 05:52 PM

yeah, there is noo need to have all the sections in one's sump. Like papagimp said it is just to reduce micro bubbles. Some don't have any baffles at all, but water has to travel at slower speed and greater distance between intake and return points so microbubbles dissapate on its own, and/or LR in sump (in the water path) breaks the bubbles up.

01/12/2007, 04:17 PM	#1
saltyguy Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 288	What my LFS said I just got back from my LFS. They said that if I have LR and LS that I wouldn't need a filter. That dosen't sound right. Whats up?

01/12/2007, 04:20 PM	#2
miamishrip Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Delaware Posts: 130	if you have enough LR and LS i would imagine you could just run a good protein skimmer and plenty of Power heads maybe a fuge? __________________ i wanna go fishing and catch a fishstick... Current Tank Info: 125g - FOWLR - will convert eventually

01/12/2007, 04:22 PM	#4
danch Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 614	That's odd - their advice matches what most of the more experienced people here say! They might be a keeper! __________________ Asking dumb questions since '06! Or, a dumby asking questions since '06! Current Tank Info: 29G FW, 75G LPSing

01/12/2007, 04:24 PM	#5
JeffDubya Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pullmanistan, U.S.A. Posts: 68	Well... it's not as cut and dry as that, because the LR and LS are a NATURAL biological filter. It's not like you're not using one, it's just not made of plastic. But it's refreshing to see someone from an LFS that is encouraging his customers to build a reef tank the natural way... But agreed. LR / LS / and a protien skimmer is all you really need for a good starter tank. You didn't mention how large of a setup you were thinking about... __________________ We have enough youth. How about a fountain of SMART? Current Tank Info: 29G sumpless display, remora skimmer, Coralife PCs. 100G prop system - two 29 gallon grow tanks w/55 gallon sump/fuge. Coralife skimmer, 400W MH, Coralife PCs. Coming soon, 95 Gallon Reef!!!

01/12/2007, 05:18 PM	#8
papagimp COMAS Rocks! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 8,185 Blog Entries: 2	Saltyguy, everyone else kinda answered ya, but let me clarify for ya a bit: When you use a store bought hang on the back type filter, with a "bio-pad" of sorts, these pads develop the beneficial bacteria that actually "cycle" the nirogenous compounds in our tank, the ammonia, nitrite, ect. ect. Aquarium keeping 101 stuff. This is exactly what Live rock and sand does. The rock is porous enough as is the sand to support sufficient amounts of bacteria to filter the tanks. In fact, it's far more efficient than a bio-pad since the surface area for the bacteria is in such abundance. You could technically do this with a freshwater setup, but most rock that would be safe to use, isn't porous enough, and the stuff that is, will leach the wrong stuff into your tank. But all that said, live rock and live sand is a biological filter. you will still want some form of mechanical filtering, this can be a simple as a prefitler sponge on a powerhead, that you regularly rinse the sponge off. If you rinse this sponge while performing water changes, using the old tank water for the rinse, this will keep most the bacteria colonized on the sponge intact and will act as another form of bio filtering as well as mechanical filtering. __________________ 58g Softie & 75g Stoney Member, Central Oklahoma Marine Aquarium Society Current Tank Info: 58g Mixed Reef Project - Started June 2011

01/12/2007, 04:21 PM	#3
salty3 Moved On Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Right here Posts: 894	Some people only use lr so yes that is right, however I personal like a filter to get the solid particals out of the water.

01/12/2007, 04:37 PM	#6
saltyguy Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 288	Well what if I pump water from my 20 into a 10 with LR and LS would that work. That way I could put my equipment in the 10gal.

01/12/2007, 05:12 PM	#7
TekCat Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MN Posts: 3,130	This is common "sump" design, where you have display tank (in your case 20), and sump (in your case 10) hidden somewhere in stand, where you could put all your equipment, etc... check www.melevsreef.com for better explanation and illustrations on how sump works, etc... good luck

01/12/2007, 05:19 PM	#9
saltyguy Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 288	I have been to melevs. I thought that I would have to have baffles, refuge, and a return area. Is it really that simple to have just another tank like my 10gal?

01/12/2007, 05:22 PM	#10
papagimp COMAS Rocks! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 8,185 Blog Entries: 2	Salty guy, the reason for baffles is primarily to help reduce microbubbles from the incoming water making their way back up the return on into the display. if you do a low enough return this usually isn't a problem. Baffles are also used to section off areas of the sump. My DIY fuge is a glass 10g tank, I stuff some baffles in with silicone just for kicks, but their probably not needed. it is that simple. Alot of this hobby is alot more simple than most people think. Just takes the time to learn this. __________________ 58g Softie & 75g Stoney Member, Central Oklahoma Marine Aquarium Society Current Tank Info: 58g Mixed Reef Project - Started June 2011

01/12/2007, 05:26 PM	#11
saltyguy Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 288	Well thanks. I guess I have been stressing to much about it. Thanks for the info!

01/12/2007, 05:52 PM	#12
TekCat Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MN Posts: 3,130	yeah, there is noo need to have all the sections in one's sump. Like papagimp said it is just to reduce micro bubbles. Some don't have any baffles at all, but water has to travel at slower speed and greater distance between intake and return points so microbubbles dissapate on its own, and/or LR in sump (in the water path) breaks the bubbles up.