What actually causes a cycle?

t5Nitro · 01/27/2007, 05:33 PM

I have a 125 gallon that I will be transfering my 46 gallon to. I would do it in one day, but we were thinking maybe leave the 46 up for a QT. Doing this, we can't use the old water from the 46 then.
If you used 5 gallons of old water and the rest new saltwater, all new sand with 1 cup of live sand, and a few peices of live rock, would the tank still go through a cycle?

WaterKeeper · 01/27/2007, 05:56 PM

There is some confusion in the term cycle. In a FW setup the new tank is pretty sterile often with plastic plants, packaged gravel (I prefer colored marbles

) and fake rock. The bacteria needed to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrate are often lacking and these autotrophs take a week or two to grow to useable numbers. Therefore one adds a source of ammonia and perhaps water from another tank to get the process started. Once nitrification is under way the tank is cycled.

Now in SW LR is almost always used and often LS. These are things teaming with bacteria, including nitrifying bacteria. There are a ton of good bugs in the tank from day one. The thing here is the LR quality. If the rock is uncured it is covered with dead stuff which all those bacteria readily attack. The process is called decay. Decay releases copious amounts of decay products including ammonia. So much so the bacteria are a little slow in dealing with the amount. The water is therefore toxic. Once the bacteria reproduce to higher levels they consume the decay products and things get back to normal. Again, the nitrifying bacteria are the weak link with their slow growth rates. It can take several weeks for them to reach the proper population. Hence a wait.

Try this with fully cured LR and everything is speeded up. Heck, good quality cured rock can allow the tank to be populated in a few days.

Sometime people like to throw some shrimp into the tank. This was the way we cycled a tank some 20 years ago, when we used plastic plants, colored gravel, and fake rock.

Things have changed and so has the way we cycle a tank.

Now one other thing. I usually still call the early stage of a new tank a cycle because with a true reef tank there are a couple of other things that go on. Those are the diatom and algae blooms. Even with cured rock the blooms usually occur. I don't consider a SW tank fully cycled until the algae is under control. That doesn't mean you can't add snails or even a fish but until the tank is normal I consider it cycling.

Did I leave everyone confused?

drummereef · 01/27/2007, 06:07 PM

Very nicely said, WaterKeeper!

t5Nitro · 01/27/2007, 08:05 PM

Ok, littled confused I guess WaterKeeper. I found "hence a wait." in there haha. So are you saying with a few gallons of old water from the 46, a cup of LS from the 46, and some LR rubble or a bigger peice of LR will cycle the tank? Would a cycle even happen with what would be in the tank, said above?
I would just transfer the tank in 1 day with all of my LR and a few cups of sand and all of the water, but I am maybe going to keep the 46 up for a QT for the powder blue tang I am going to get, and possibly 3 anthias too.

I guess what would you go with, the few gallons/cup LS/few LR rubble to see if any cycle happens or just transfer it?

The LR has been cured at the store and then in my tank for about 6 months now, along with the sand.

WaterKeeper · 01/27/2007, 08:17 PM

Well sure it will seed the tank. You could probably even put a small fish in there but not much else. It a reef tank you have normally at least a pound of rock per gallon. A couple of small pieces are not going to be much of a biofilter. Now if the game plan is to seed base rock with LR it will work but "Hence it will be a looong wait"

as it takes months for sufficient growth to occur on base rock to make it function like LR.

t5Nitro · 01/27/2007, 08:19 PM

Nevermind, I am just going to transfer it, I can't afford to keep a QT going, heater and filter for one then, all of the extras.

WaterKeeper · 01/27/2007, 08:39 PM

Q-tanks are really not a luxury as they can prevent a disease outbreak that can wipe out a tank. However, many, many reefers go BB on a Q-tank and just have an overturned flower pot or such for hiding places. A biowheel HOB filter, low level lighting and maybe a powerhead completes the set-up. I always ran a full fledge Q-tank because it could be seen. It is not needed to be that fancy.

t5Nitro · 01/27/2007, 08:47 PM

Ya, I know, just I can't get all of the filtration for the new 125 yet. Peice by peice will come over time.

Earlier were you saying with 50 lbs of LR there there will still be a cycle because not enough bacteria?

01/27/2007, 05:33 PM	#1
t5Nitro Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,384	What actually causes a cycle? I have a 125 gallon that I will be transfering my 46 gallon to. I would do it in one day, but we were thinking maybe leave the 46 up for a QT. Doing this, we can't use the old water from the 46 then. If you used 5 gallons of old water and the rest new saltwater, all new sand with 1 cup of live sand, and a few peices of live rock, would the tank still go through a cycle?

01/27/2007, 05:56 PM	#2
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	There is some confusion in the term cycle. In a FW setup the new tank is pretty sterile often with plastic plants, packaged gravel (I prefer colored marbles ) and fake rock. The bacteria needed to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrate are often lacking and these autotrophs take a week or two to grow to useable numbers. Therefore one adds a source of ammonia and perhaps water from another tank to get the process started. Once nitrification is under way the tank is cycled. Now in SW LR is almost always used and often LS. These are things teaming with bacteria, including nitrifying bacteria. There are a ton of good bugs in the tank from day one. The thing here is the LR quality. If the rock is uncured it is covered with dead stuff which all those bacteria readily attack. The process is called decay. Decay releases copious amounts of decay products including ammonia. So much so the bacteria are a little slow in dealing with the amount. The water is therefore toxic. Once the bacteria reproduce to higher levels they consume the decay products and things get back to normal. Again, the nitrifying bacteria are the weak link with their slow growth rates. It can take several weeks for them to reach the proper population. Hence a wait. Try this with fully cured LR and everything is speeded up. Heck, good quality cured rock can allow the tank to be populated in a few days. Sometime people like to throw some shrimp into the tank. This was the way we cycled a tank some 20 years ago, when we used plastic plants, colored gravel, and fake rock. Things have changed and so has the way we cycle a tank. Now one other thing. I usually still call the early stage of a new tank a cycle because with a true reef tank there are a couple of other things that go on. Those are the diatom and algae blooms. Even with cured rock the blooms usually occur. I don't consider a SW tank fully cycled until the algae is under control. That doesn't mean you can't add snails or even a fish but until the tank is normal I consider it cycling. Did I leave everyone confused? __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/27/2007, 06:07 PM	#3
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	Very nicely said, WaterKeeper! __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

01/27/2007, 08:05 PM	#4
t5Nitro Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,384	Ok, littled confused I guess WaterKeeper. I found "hence a wait." in there haha. So are you saying with a few gallons of old water from the 46, a cup of LS from the 46, and some LR rubble or a bigger peice of LR will cycle the tank? Would a cycle even happen with what would be in the tank, said above? I would just transfer the tank in 1 day with all of my LR and a few cups of sand and all of the water, but I am maybe going to keep the 46 up for a QT for the powder blue tang I am going to get, and possibly 3 anthias too. I guess what would you go with, the few gallons/cup LS/few LR rubble to see if any cycle happens or just transfer it? The LR has been cured at the store and then in my tank for about 6 months now, along with the sand. __________________ ATI T5 club Current Tank Info: Left the hobby, looking to re-enter in the future

01/27/2007, 08:17 PM	#5
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Well sure it will seed the tank. You could probably even put a small fish in there but not much else. It a reef tank you have normally at least a pound of rock per gallon. A couple of small pieces are not going to be much of a biofilter. Now if the game plan is to seed base rock with LR it will work but "Hence it will be a looong wait" as it takes months for sufficient growth to occur on base rock to make it function like LR. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/27/2007, 08:19 PM	#6
t5Nitro Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,384	Nevermind, I am just going to transfer it, I can't afford to keep a QT going, heater and filter for one then, all of the extras. __________________ ATI T5 club Current Tank Info: Left the hobby, looking to re-enter in the future

01/27/2007, 08:39 PM	#7
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Q-tanks are really not a luxury as they can prevent a disease outbreak that can wipe out a tank. However, many, many reefers go BB on a Q-tank and just have an overturned flower pot or such for hiding places. A biowheel HOB filter, low level lighting and maybe a powerhead completes the set-up. I always ran a full fledge Q-tank because it could be seen. It is not needed to be that fancy. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/27/2007, 08:47 PM	#8
t5Nitro Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,384	Ya, I know, just I can't get all of the filtration for the new 125 yet. Peice by peice will come over time. Earlier were you saying with 50 lbs of LR there there will still be a cycle because not enough bacteria? __________________ ATI T5 club Current Tank Info: Left the hobby, looking to re-enter in the future