After all these years how little have things changed

[Tokey]

I first got into the saltwater hobby 26yrs ago. At that time with no Internet the only place you could get information was trusting your LFS
and the odd magazine article. Well we all know how good the information you get from most LFS is. I made a lot of mistakes back then a lot of mistakes but with few sources for help all you could do was try your best. I eventually left the hobby feeling guilty for the fish I killed from my ignorance. About 5 years ago I decided it was time to get back in. I had a love of saltwater fish keeping that never left me and with all the advances in equipment and all the excellent information on the net and places like this where you can discuss with and help and get help from all over the world you would think the mistakes of the past would be over. I was reading a thread that led me to U tube to watch a video of a members reef. After it was over I started watching other reef videos there and could hardly believe what I was seeing. One guy had a small cube with 7 clown fish 2 hippo tangs and a number of other doomed fish. He wasn't the only one there like that. I've also read many threads with people doing the same thing over populating their tanks or buying fish that should never be put in such small tanks. I even read in a popular fish magazine where a guy was asking about an algae problem he was having. His tank was 3 weeks old and he had placed 7 corals and as many fish in it already. And the editor gave him every reason why except to say he was adding to fast and to soon. Man whats going on have we learned nothing in all these years. With all the FREE information available this should not be happening. I'm amazed at the stupidity and lack of conscience of people.

[alan214]

Well, some people just want to hear what they want to hear. Most that make it to ReefCentral learn through good, sound advice what they need to do and sometimes that means a little tough love.

Others will do what they have already made their minds up to do, in spite of several people telling them it's a bad idea. Those people are destined for failure and will kill countless fish and corals at the expense of going with their own hunches.

[Scuba_Steve]

Let them come hear with thar kinda tank. The tang police would eat them alive!

[K9]

Sad indeed. There's an awful lot of stubborn, stupid, closed-minded people out there. Sadly, with a large portion of individuals, it wouldn't matter if Jacques Cousteau himself told them they have too many fish in their tank, they still wouldn't listen.

[goldenTee]

"stubborn, stupid, closed-minded people out there"
and people who don't want to do thier research before getting into the hobby....

[ccorpse27]

A lot of people don't use the internet so that's a big problem right there. Many are also poorly educated or lack common sense yet still want a nemo and dori to coexist in a 10 gal. AGA tank.

[TheMcs]

Originally posted by ccorpse27
want a nemo and dori to coexist in a 10 gal. AGA tank.

When we all know it should be done in a Perfecto 10.

Regardless of the information available, there will always be people who want to do it their way then gripe when it goes wrong. Trust me, I see it on an almost daily basis. There are people who will fork over $300 for an angel but balk at $200 for a skimmer on the same tank.

Unfortunately, many people find their way to RC as well and start giving out advice. Even worse, others listen to it and repeat it.

RC is a great place but I wouldn't give the advice given here any more credit than what you would get at an LFS. Some of it is great, some horrific.

For what it's worth, there are some great people in this industry. To toot my own horn and that of the people working for me, we have a nickname of Fish Nazi (think Seinfeld). New customer trying to rapidly overpopulate a new tank. After his initial fish, we refused to sell him anything for a given time. After he got over being mad, he realized we were doing him a favor and made us the Fish Nazi sign.

Anyways Tokey, I feel your pain. Just realize that intelligence and an internet connection/fish tank don't go hand in hand.

[alan214]

Originally posted by TheMcs

Unfortunately, many people find their way to RC as well and start giving out advice. Even worse, others listen to it and repeat it.

RC is a great place but I wouldn't give the advice given here any more credit than what you would get at an LFS. Some of it is great, some horrific.

That's another thing that you learn after being in this hobby for awhile, how to discern a blowhard from someone who probably knows what he/she's talking about. Shame that means having to sacrifice a few fish and corals along the way!

[Tennsquire]

Originally posted by ccorpse27
A lot of people don't use the internet so that's a big problem right there. Many are also poorly educated or lack common sense yet still want a nemo and dori to coexist in a 10 gal. AGA tank.

There are people on RC that are still their own worst enemies. I'm amazed at that threads in which someone asks a question, gets an answer or answers they don't really want to hear, and then either continue to ask the same question or defend the answer that they want to hear. But then again, there's no law against acting a fool....

[SDguy]

Instances like 10 fish in a 20g and such are obviously agreed upon as wrong (for whatever reason you choose...morality, aesthetics, detrimental to the tank stability, etc) . However, claiming lack of conscience and/or intelligence over tank size for certain fish or fish populations is a VERY slippery slope....

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by TheMcs

For what it's worth, there are some great people in this industry. To toot my own horn and that of the people working for me, we have a nickname of Fish Nazi (think Seinfeld). New customer trying to rapidly overpopulate a new tank. After his initial fish, we refused to sell him anything for a given time. After he got over being mad, he realized we were doing him a favor and made us the Fish Nazi sign.

Yup. I've seen this happen in person, and I've seen their funny Fish Nazi sign.

[Al]

Originally posted by Tokey
with all the advances in equipment and all the excellent information on the net and places like this where you can discuss with and help and get help from all over the world you would think the mistakes of the past would be over.

It's sad but in a way this has contributed to the problem. The hobby is not just an interest for a few nature lovers and scuba divers anymore. Reef tanks are cool, and any idiot can go to his local Petco and get himself a tankful of critters which were, a few weeks ago, living in a coral reef.

Really the only way to get people like this away from the hobby is to make something like stamp collecting the new thing to follow.

[davidryder]

I think MANY things have changed as far as information we have now. But you're right, there are still ignorant people and unfortunately you can spend $400 and get a 12g nanocube setup without knowing anything. No matter how much we learn there will still be people ignorant to how to have a successful saltwater tank, for whatever reasons.

[kfowler]

I think a one of the problems is that many people lump fish and pets in the same category. A reef system is not like a yard dog you can throw some scraps at once a day. I spend far more time maintaining my 20g than I do on taking care of our golden retriever. The aquarium just demands more attention to properly maintain. The more we can educate potential aquarists about the demands of a SW tank, the better our hobby will be for all of us.

[Tehrab]

Originally posted by kfowler
I think a one of the problems is that many people lump fish and pets in the same category.

Fish and Pets are, in fact, the same category. They both require care and attention.

Originally posted by kfowler
A reef system is not like a yard dog you can throw some scraps at once a day.

A dog is not something you can throw scraps at once a day in a yard and be done with it. My dogs require more time out of my day than my aquarium ever will once it's up and running. Much like my dogs, when they were puppies, required more time and effort than they do now.

This is assuming you care about your dog being as healthy and happy as your fish.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by Tehrab
Fish and Pets are, in fact, the same category. They both require care and attention.
A dog is not something you can throw scraps at once a day in a yard and be done with it. My dogs require more time out of my day than my aquarium ever will once it's up and running. Much like my dogs, when they were puppies, required more time and effort than they do now.

This is assuming you care about your dog being as healthy and happy as your fish.

That is funny... ridiculing other aquarists for not knowing the demands of aquariums, then turning around and getting ridiculed for not knowing the demands of a dog!!

I mean I'm not saying that's what anything actually meant, i'm just identifying literal irony for comical purposes.

[Tokey]

Originally posted by TheMcs

For what it's worth, there are some great people in this industry. To toot my own horn and that of the people working for me, we have a nickname of Fish Nazi (think Seinfeld). New customer trying to rapidly overpopulate a new tank. After his initial fish, we refused to sell him anything for a given time. After he got over being mad, he realized we were doing him a favor and made us the Fish Nazi sign.

I didn't mean to paint all LFS as bad I know that there are many good ones out there they are the ones like yourself that care enough about the livestock they sell to take time to join communities like this to pass on their knowledge and to continue to learn them selves.

[vessxpress1]

Originally posted by Tehrab
Fish and Pets are, in fact, the same category. They both require care and attention.
A dog is not something you can throw scraps at once a day in a yard and be done with it. My dogs require more time out of my day than my aquarium ever will once it's up and running. Much like my dogs, when they were puppies, required more time and effort than they do now.

This is assuming you care about your dog being as healthy and happy as your fish.

A dog is not more time consuming than the reef IMO. Depending on how much tinkering you do. We've got a Boston Terrier and it's like our kid. I don't see the dog as being very taxing though. It's easy to feed and let out. I can sit on the couch with my wife and relax, watching tv, while petting the dog or throwing it's ball. It just hangs around where ever I go and it doesn't take a lot of effort.

The tank on the other hand, requires a lot of one- on- one time. Often making the significant other unhappy. Often doing things I don't feel like doing but knowing I have to. To me, it burns up a lot of free time and I still have problems. I can spend over an hour just running tests sometimes.
To me, this is an all or nothing hobby. I don't think you can just kind of be into reef tanks. If it ever stops being my main hobby, I will get out. My other hobbies are always there. They can be neglected and nothing happens. The tank can't.

Many people will never have the drive that it takes to do things correctly or even care what happens.
Not much you can do though when Petcos and other LFS' out there are catering to just that group. They're in business to make money. Unfortunately, a lot of reef life pays the price in the end. You would think people would want to be knowledgeable at least for the sake of not wanting to waste their money, but you can't even count on that.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by vessxpress1
A dog is not more time consuming than the reef IMO. Depending on how much tinkering you do. We've got a Boston Terrier and it's like our kid. I don't see the dog as being very taxing though. It's easy to feed and let out. I can sit on the couch with my wife and relax, watching tv, while petting the dog or throwing it's ball. It just hangs around where ever I go and it doesn't take a lot of effort.

The tank on the other hand, requires a lot of one- on- one time. Often making the significant other unhappy. Often doing things I don't feel like doing but knowing I have to. To me, it burns up a lot of free time and I still have problems. I can spend over an hour just running tests sometimes.
To me, this is an all or nothing hobby. I don't think you can just kind of be into reef tanks. If it ever stops being my main hobby, I will get out. My other hobbies are always there. They can be neglected and nothing happens. The tank can't.

Many people will never have the drive that it takes to do things correctly or even care what happens.
Not much you can do though when Petcos and other LFS' out there are catering to just that group. They're in business to make money. Unfortunately, a lot of reef life pays the price in the end. You would think people would want to be knowledgeable at least for the sake of not wanting to waste their money, but you can't even count on that.

Yeah but the comparison was "puppy is to initial setup as dogs is to established reefs." some are probably more involved in their tanks than others but once my tank is setup i like to enjoy it. i love the building part (and i build just about EVERYTHING), but continually changing things after i'm finished would just burn me out. like i said, though... some are probably more involved than others.

i know when i was raising my puppy (west highland white terrier) it was non-stop. now, like you said, i just let him out, feed him, take him to the park, and groom him. sounds like a lot, but no more than feeding, scraping, and water changing. and on that side, more people are probably more involved with their dog than others. and some people have many people to help (kids).

[kfowler]

Originally posted by Tehrab
Fish and Pets are, in fact, the same category. They both require care and attention.
A dog is not something you can throw scraps at once a day in a yard and be done with it. My dogs require more time out of my day than my aquarium ever will once it's up and running. Much like my dogs, when they were puppies, required more time and effort than they do now.

This is assuming you care about your dog being as healthy and happy as your fish.

Wow talk about totally misinterpreting a post.