Designing A Closed Loop " Advice Welcomed"

Steve 926 · 03/25/2007, 11:48 PM

Hello All

Well now that I have the drill out, and the return's are finished.
I would like to add a closed loop to my 50gl. acrylic. The pump I have is a Quite One 4000, 1" inlet & outlet & about 1000 gph.
My plan was to use a 1.5 bulkhead for the intake to reduce the suction force. I also considered two 1" bulkhead's plumbed together.

I would like to split the return, possibly add a SCWD to it & run these lines to the front of the display below the sand bed to create a rolling flow from front to back using a 45 elbow, or a lockline fan on each return outlet. My overflow is center located & would benefit from this flow pattern.

Any advice & PICTURES !! are always APPRECIATED.

I really want to thank all those who have taken the time & patience to help & advise all of us trying to do it right. These forums on RC have been an incredible learning experience & also a good laugh at times

Thanks Again

Steve (@^ 926

Laakmann · 03/26/2007, 12:16 AM

I know its expensive but hook up a wavyseas to the pump and you will be very happy.

Steve 926 · 03/26/2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laakmann
I know its expensive but hook up a wavyseas to the pump and you will be very happy.

Thanks for the reply.

What is a " Waveyseas"

silverwolf72 · 03/26/2007, 02:28 AM

Also look at oceansmotions.com. I look at the scwd at first but heard there was a 40% loss of flow I decided to go with the OM unit.

aharrow · 03/26/2007, 12:16 PM

What I learned from installing my closed loop

Most important - union ball valves on return and output of the pump. If you don't you will not be able to remove your pump without major problems.

On each return, place a ball valve. I have four returns on my closed loop and I have a ball valve on each return giving me the ability to adjust each one individually. If I want to reduce flow to a certain area return I can. This gives you flexability even if you don't use it immediately.

Use Spa Flex PVC instead of regular PVC. It is slightly flexable and doesn't put as much strain on your bulkheads.

Don't overturn the nut on the bulkhead. I cracked one and it was a major pain to replace.

Oh and my final suggestion and you will thank me later. After you have installed all the plumbing, fill it up with tap water and run it for the weekend. If you have any leaks you can drain and fix without wasting or having to store all that saltwater.

Good luck and definately put some flow on the bottom pushing water upward.

I will take some pics of mine tonight and post them for you

ElDiabloPollo · 03/26/2007, 12:20 PM

I would go with a better pump like a pan world, reeflo, or velocity.

J

bch044 · 03/26/2007, 12:27 PM

Also don't forget that if you are putting it on the bottom of your tank if you develop a leak on your pump and noone is around to catch it, it will create a syphon and syphon your tank all the way down to the lowest point which would be your returns at the bottom of your tank.

aharrow · 03/27/2007, 08:17 AM

Go with the largest pump you can afford. Make sure that it is pressure rated. With the ball valves at each return you can tone down the waterflow to that area. Down the road as all of us naturally do, we want a bigger tank and you will already have the pump for your next closed loop

silverwolf72 · 03/27/2007, 09:54 AM

Two drains are better than one.

ElDiabloPollo · 03/27/2007, 09:55 AM

aharrow: Just curious, why pressure rated?

Steve 926 · 03/27/2007, 10:23 AM

^

Steve 926 · 03/30/2007, 09:13 AM

^

swedish steel · 03/30/2007, 09:25 AM

I think you only need a pressure rated pump if you have a lot of head loss. Otherwise, you would want a high flow pump, such as a Sequence Dart, which will give you a lot of flow with low electrical cost of operation. The Dart is probably too much flow for a 50 gal system, so look at a balance of flow that you want. If you go with Oceans Motions 4 way, you could research their forum for additional information and communicate with Paul to finalize your design. HTH

silverwolf72 · 03/30/2007, 09:28 AM

Pressure rated pumps aren't needed for closed loops. You have the same water pressure on both the input and output so the only force to over come is the friction from the plumbing.

Steve 926 · 03/30/2007, 10:51 AM

Thanks to all for your reply

I would realy like see some pics. of running systems to get an Idea for placement on the intake & return lines.

This is a great starter tank to learn from & carry over the knowledge to the next one, two, three tanks ?

I was going to use the quiet one 4000 (1100 gph). After the head pressure I think about 700 gph would be the return.

Some of the pumps suggested, were great advice but I am not sure if they may be too powerful for a small tank like this.

Any way " thanks" again to all of you for your advice and
PLEASE keep it coming !!

COMMENTS ARE ALWAYS WELCOMED

Steve (@^ 926

seaturtle1255 · 03/30/2007, 11:13 AM

Steve, I'm working on a similar project but on a bit larger tank. I think the Quiet One should be a good fit for your size tank. I also second the idea of going with Oceans Motions over the SCWD. You might also look at their Revolutions device. I think they are great for creating alternating currents.

The path I'm thinking of going down is to use 2 eductors pointed at each other from opposite sides of the tank. You need a stronger pumps to make eductors work more effectively and this may be overkill for a 50 gallon tank. Depends on how much flow you are trying to create in your tank but you might want to look into this approach too.

Steve 926 · 03/30/2007, 10:01 PM

Thanks seaturtle1255

I'm looking forward to water testing it this week end, & plan on letting it run for several days in the garage to repair the "Oh Oh's"
I like the OM 2 way, it's a reasonable price & has a great reputation. I 'm going to try the SCWD on the main return's & may purchase the OM for the CL. My plan for the CL was to run two returns under the DSB to the front of the display, & use a 45* elbow with a Lockline fan on each to help create a rolling type current from bottom front to top rear. The CL intake will be two 1" bulkheads plumed together to reduce the suction force. This type of current would benefit my main overflow / slot because of it's center location

I fabricated an external overflow from some scrap acrylic & attached it to the rear of the tank, there is nothing in the display except bulkheads. There are two dorso style returns in the external overflow. I then routered a 7" long 1/2" wide slot across the rear center of the tank, about 1" down from the top to skim in to the overflow. Linear flow calculations provide that this size slot should exceed 500gph in just skimming over it, more than enough flow for just the main I hope. My concern is for the CL to create some additional current / flow and my idea for one

I'd like to finish up & close the check book for now and enjoy the 50 until I have the room for a larger display. I am beginning to think that it should have come with 4 tires & a steering wheel at this cost.

Anyone with an idea on this design

AS ALWAYS

Thanks For The Reply

Steve (@^ 926

03/25/2007, 11:48 PM	#1
Steve 926 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ. Posts: 555	Designing A Closed Loop " Advice Welcomed" Hello All Well now that I have the drill out, and the return's are finished. I would like to add a closed loop to my 50gl. acrylic. The pump I have is a Quite One 4000, 1" inlet & outlet & about 1000 gph. My plan was to use a 1.5 bulkhead for the intake to reduce the suction force. I also considered two 1" bulkhead's plumbed together. I would like to split the return, possibly add a SCWD to it & run these lines to the front of the display below the sand bed to create a rolling flow from front to back using a 45 elbow, or a lockline fan on each return outlet. My overflow is center located & would benefit from this flow pattern. Any advice & PICTURES !! are always APPRECIATED. I really want to thank all those who have taken the time & patience to help & advise all of us trying to do it right. These forums on RC have been an incredible learning experience & also a good laugh at times Thanks Again Steve (@^ 926 __________________ Experience is something you don't get, until just after you need it . Current Tank Info: Small in nature (50gal. Reef) Large in Heart. Re-occurring dream of a 300 gal.

03/26/2007, 12:16 AM	#2
Laakmann Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 332	I know its expensive but hook up a wavyseas to the pump and you will be very happy. __________________ 90 gallon BB SPS cube Current Tank Info: 90 reef, 125 single oscar tank, 55 QT

03/26/2007, 12:16 PM	#5
aharrow Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: St Augustine FL Posts: 328	Closed Loop What I learned from installing my closed loop Most important - union ball valves on return and output of the pump. If you don't you will not be able to remove your pump without major problems. On each return, place a ball valve. I have four returns on my closed loop and I have a ball valve on each return giving me the ability to adjust each one individually. If I want to reduce flow to a certain area return I can. This gives you flexability even if you don't use it immediately. Use Spa Flex PVC instead of regular PVC. It is slightly flexable and doesn't put as much strain on your bulkheads. Don't overturn the nut on the bulkhead. I cracked one and it was a major pain to replace. Oh and my final suggestion and you will thank me later. After you have installed all the plumbing, fill it up with tap water and run it for the weekend. If you have any leaks you can drain and fix without wasting or having to store all that saltwater. Good luck and definately put some flow on the bottom pushing water upward. I will take some pics of mine tonight and post them for you __________________ Andrew "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" Current Tank Info: 180 gallon starphire custom tank, 3 zone benthic refugium system, royal exclusive alpha 250, Sfiligoi custom fixture t-5, LED combo

03/27/2007, 08:17 AM	#8
aharrow Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: St Augustine FL Posts: 328	Go with the largest pump you can afford. Make sure that it is pressure rated. With the ball valves at each return you can tone down the waterflow to that area. Down the road as all of us naturally do, we want a bigger tank and you will already have the pump for your next closed loop __________________ Andrew "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" Current Tank Info: 180 gallon starphire custom tank, 3 zone benthic refugium system, royal exclusive alpha 250, Sfiligoi custom fixture t-5, LED combo

03/27/2007, 10:23 AM	#11
Steve 926 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ. Posts: 555	^ __________________ Experience is something you don't get, until just after you need it . Current Tank Info: Small in nature (50gal. Reef) Large in Heart. Re-occurring dream of a 300 gal.

03/26/2007, 02:28 AM	#4
silverwolf72 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Lake Forrest CA Posts: 1,732	Also look at oceansmotions.com. I look at the scwd at first but heard there was a 40% loss of flow I decided to go with the OM unit.

03/26/2007, 12:20 PM	#6
ElDiabloPollo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Amherst, NY Posts: 643	I would go with a better pump like a pan world, reeflo, or velocity. J

03/26/2007, 12:27 PM	#7
bch044 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Homer, Ohio Posts: 76	Also don't forget that if you are putting it on the bottom of your tank if you develop a leak on your pump and noone is around to catch it, it will create a syphon and syphon your tank all the way down to the lowest point which would be your returns at the bottom of your tank.

03/27/2007, 09:54 AM	#9
silverwolf72 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Lake Forrest CA Posts: 1,732	Two drains are better than one.

03/27/2007, 09:55 AM	#10
ElDiabloPollo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Amherst, NY Posts: 643	aharrow: Just curious, why pressure rated?

03/30/2007, 09:13 AM	#12
Steve 926 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ. Posts: 555	^ __________________ Experience is something you don't get, until just after you need it . Current Tank Info: Small in nature (50gal. Reef) Large in Heart. Re-occurring dream of a 300 gal.

03/30/2007, 09:25 AM	#13
swedish steel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 102	I think you only need a pressure rated pump if you have a lot of head loss. Otherwise, you would want a high flow pump, such as a Sequence Dart, which will give you a lot of flow with low electrical cost of operation. The Dart is probably too much flow for a 50 gal system, so look at a balance of flow that you want. If you go with Oceans Motions 4 way, you could research their forum for additional information and communicate with Paul to finalize your design. HTH

03/30/2007, 09:28 AM	#14
silverwolf72 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Lake Forrest CA Posts: 1,732	Pressure rated pumps aren't needed for closed loops. You have the same water pressure on both the input and output so the only force to over come is the friction from the plumbing.

03/30/2007, 10:51 AM	#15
Steve 926 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ. Posts: 555	Thanks to all for your reply I would realy like see some pics. of running systems to get an Idea for placement on the intake & return lines. This is a great starter tank to learn from & carry over the knowledge to the next one, two, three tanks ? I was going to use the quiet one 4000 (1100 gph). After the head pressure I think about 700 gph would be the return. Some of the pumps suggested, were great advice but I am not sure if they may be too powerful for a small tank like this. Any way " thanks" again to all of you for your advice and PLEASE keep it coming !! COMMENTS ARE ALWAYS WELCOMED Steve (@^ 926 __________________ Experience is something you don't get, until just after you need it . Current Tank Info: Small in nature (50gal. Reef) Large in Heart. Re-occurring dream of a 300 gal.

03/30/2007, 11:13 AM	#16
seaturtle1255 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dallas Posts: 9	Steve, I'm working on a similar project but on a bit larger tank. I think the Quiet One should be a good fit for your size tank. I also second the idea of going with Oceans Motions over the SCWD. You might also look at their Revolutions device. I think they are great for creating alternating currents. The path I'm thinking of going down is to use 2 eductors pointed at each other from opposite sides of the tank. You need a stronger pumps to make eductors work more effectively and this may be overkill for a 50 gallon tank. Depends on how much flow you are trying to create in your tank but you might want to look into this approach too.

03/30/2007, 10:01 PM	#17
Steve 926 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ. Posts: 555	Thanks seaturtle1255 I'm looking forward to water testing it this week end, & plan on letting it run for several days in the garage to repair the "Oh Oh's" I like the OM 2 way, it's a reasonable price & has a great reputation. I 'm going to try the SCWD on the main return's & may purchase the OM for the CL. My plan for the CL was to run two returns under the DSB to the front of the display, & use a 45* elbow with a Lockline fan on each to help create a rolling type current from bottom front to top rear. The CL intake will be two 1" bulkheads plumed together to reduce the suction force. This type of current would benefit my main overflow / slot because of it's center location I fabricated an external overflow from some scrap acrylic & attached it to the rear of the tank, there is nothing in the display except bulkheads. There are two dorso style returns in the external overflow. I then routered a 7" long 1/2" wide slot across the rear center of the tank, about 1" down from the top to skim in to the overflow. Linear flow calculations provide that this size slot should exceed 500gph in just skimming over it, more than enough flow for just the main I hope. My concern is for the CL to create some additional current / flow and my idea for one I'd like to finish up & close the check book for now and enjoy the 50 until I have the room for a larger display. I am beginning to think that it should have come with 4 tires & a steering wheel at this cost. Anyone with an idea on this design AS ALWAYS Thanks For The Reply Steve (@^ 926 __________________ Experience is something you don't get, until just after you need it . Current Tank Info: Small in nature (50gal. Reef) Large in Heart. Re-occurring dream of a 300 gal.