looking for nano fish with lots of personality.

[kathainbowen]

Originally posted by agoutihead

and dont forget guys, im getting a psychedelic mandarin... a.k.a. spotted mandarin, not the dragonette.

On the "dragonet"
LMAO! Uh, silly-billy, they're BOTH dragonets. "Dragonet" refers to a family of similar fish, including, but not limited to, the psychadelic (spotted) mandarin dragonet, green mandarin dragonet, scooter blenny (dragonet), starry dragonet, etc. Both the psychadelic or spotted mandarin and the green are actually even members of the same dragonet genus ( Synchiropus, with the psychadelic being Synchiropus picturatus and the green mandarin being Synchiropus splendidus)..... very similar species and both dragonets.

I'm just busting yer chops. I've said some oddly dumb things in my life, so I no worries (I once screamed out, "Screw you guys, I'm the color red!" in the middle of a crowded Waffle House, if it makes you feel any better )

On everyone busting you about keeping a mandarin in such a small tank
You have to understand, mandarin dragonets (both the psychadelic and the green) hold a special place in many reefers' hearts. They are such small, passive creatures with incredible colors and personalities that many a reef keeper can hardly resist. However, on the same token, so many of them are purchased and thrown into such inappropriately small tanks to be doomed a slow starvation, that many experienced reef keepers see them as a rather ill-fated fish in the marine trade. It is a sad thing that easily thousands of mandarins die each year in the ornamental fish trade by ending up in situations prone to starvation. With three years of reef experience and your own, obvious interest in mandarins, I would have thought you yourself would have seen that by now.

On the same token, with three years of reef experience, I would have thought you also would have realized that serpent stars get very large. I'm sorry. I don't mean to sound cruel. But I'm just trying to point out that you are still learning. In truth, we are all still learning as reef keepers, as the science and art of this hobby is constantly expanding (In my own 22 year lifetime, I have seen keeping live coral go from darn near impossible to keep become a simple, fun, and utterly vogue thing to do!) The good people of Reef Central were just trying to warn you that it was a fool's errand in most cases to press for keeping a mandarin in such a small tank in most cases. So, please, don't be angry or cross that people cautioned against it. They were just trying to help you avoid what could be a potentially bad situation.

Now, you are right, there are a few very small tanks that have successfully kept mandarins. They are few and far between, but they are excellently maintained. No one said anything about a mandarin in a TOTM, probably because the mandarin was quite fat. Fat mandarins are happy and eating, with a good pod population keeping up with them or that have learned to feed in a "mandarin diner" of a side-turned glass/jar or a small pipe.

So, instead of just trying to placate people, I'm going to try to help.

On actually keeping a mandarin
Not only would I recommend using a "mandarin diner" (there was a back issue of TFH that had a really interesting article on that. I'll look for that later and post you the relevant parts so you got the exact technique we're all talking about ). Having a refugium will definitely help, but you may also wish to research the techniques of culturing pods used in fish breeding to help keep an active colony to keep your mandarin well fed.

In addition to that, you may wish to create pod "sanctuaries" within the tank to promote breeding. A pod "sanctuary" generally consists of a small with tiny knooks and crannies where the mandarin can't get in, giving the pods a chance to get established instead of all getting gobbled up at once. You can easily make one by stacking some small pieces of reef rubble in a place well out of sight. I've seen other people use tiny, homemade egg-crate "boxes" hidden beneath rubble as a sanctuary. I've also seen other people use up-turned plastic baskets from the local grocer (y'know the ones that they sell berries or cherry tomatoes in?)

I had a great deal of success using a few of those "sanctuaries" to keep a mandarin in a 40BDR with just about 40-50 lbs of liverock. If you have the space in the display tank, this should help at least a bit.




I'll get back to you later with the important parts of that article (sorry, I'd love to do it at the moment- but I smell dinner, and my stomach calls!!!)

[agoutihead]

ill be the first to admit that i am always learning. thats why im on reefcentral and post regularly.

yeah i know thier all dragonettes... but people often call the "green" one a just a mandarin dragonet.

and i thought serpant stars got bigger.... thats why i asked because i was on dr. foster and they said...

Max. Size In Aquarium: Up to 1' 2"

i thought it was just 1-2" so it was something i misread.

and i completely understand everyones negative feedback on keeping one of these as many inexerpienced reefers try to keep them dont succeed.

ive got a bunch of rock rubble and chaeto in my fuge, so i should have plenty of hiding and breeding spots for them.

[Myka]

I think the "Target" Mandarins are the spotted ones, and the Psychadelic ones are the well physchadelic looking green ones....? Hahaha!

[John99]

Heres the Mandarin diner article from Melev's reef for those who mentioned it.
http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_diner.html

[LobsterOfJustice]

Guys, dont worry, he has rubbe in his fuge.

Maybe get a breeding pair of spotted target pschyadelic mandarins (not dragonets though).









These people are trying to help you, and the LIVES of your animals. You asked... we answered. It is obvious you are not listening to anything we say, and you will be reponsible for loss life and your money. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the dark side of our hobby.

[Scottkelly911]

Agoutihead,
No disrespect at all, but you've made many comments that make me question your knowledge in reefing, 3 years of not, some of the stuff you have stated makes me think you really should do a little more research on what you plan on keeping and what type of fish you could keep happily in your 11gallon nano. There's nothing wrong with it and I agree with you, we're all here to learn more. Orange Diamond gobies can get up to 6" long in a captivity. I've seen a few at a LFS who always seems to have extra large fish have a few that were probably 8" in length tip to tip, so if you think they're going to stay only 2", you're mistaken about that and may want to consider whether or not you'll have a place to move it to once it outgrows your tank. Also, they are quite vorascious eaters as well and an 11 gallon with rockwork wont give him enough sand sifting room, but luckily usually will take prepared foods. Next, as others have said, both types of Mandarins are dragonettes. I agree with what most people are trying to tell you, even WITH a 20 gallon fuge busting at the seems with pods, you're pretty much sentencing any Mandarin to death unless it'll take prepared foods. I've got a 55 gallon with about 75lbs of liverock with an 18 gallon fuge/sump and as much as I'd love to have a Mandarin, I just don't want to subject myself to it's death as I feel I'm right on the threshhold of being able to keep one decently fed. Remember, they feed all day long, that's part of what makes their personalities so entertaining, watching them go in and out of the rockwork looking for food. Next, Linckia's are difficult to keep even the orange ones which are a bit hardier than the blue and purple counterparts and should only be kept in larger established systems, not because of the size, but rather because they are very sensitive to changing water parameters, especially salinity which in a small system will fluctuate greatly. As a suggestion for a star that is hardier and better suited to a nano, I'd say look at a Red-fromia star. I had one in my 12 Gallon for about a year, now it resides in my 55 as it was one of my only survivors of my crash before I upgraded to my 55 gallon. Maroon Clowns are very aggressive and territorial, if you choose one, you're seriously limiting what you can put into your system. If you must have a clown, I agree with the Ocellaris suggestion. But I'd suggest skipping the clown in that tank and get yourself a Yashia or Hi-fin goby and a Pistol shrimp combo. Keep your system peaceful and you're more likely to be able to keep several fish in there as long as chosen with a lot of planning. Just remember, water changes even with your fuge are key to keeping a small thriving system. Neon Goby...Clown Goby...there's hope for you afterall, both very well suited to your system, but as tempting as the Panda Goby is, stay clear, very few have survived in captivity which is too bad, because it's one of the coolest looking tiny little fish you've ever seen.

John 99 thanks for posting that video! That shows how well the Mandarin diner really works...so long as your mandarin will take prepared foods. His tangs were hilarious to watch while they tried to conjure ways up to get the pellets.

[agoutihead]

Well if you think you need to question my knowledge, you should first read my posts throughly.

i will be the first to admit i dont know everything, but i will also say that i never stop reading or researching.

i was not talking about a diamond goby, diamond gobies i have kept in larger reefs. im reffering to an orange spotted shrimp goby. and these stay around 2 or 3 inches.

no offense everyone, but i didnt ask for help on mandarins, i am very aware of their requirements. they just took this thread over... this thread was actually for other nano fish. i knew what i planned on doing with the psychedelic fish from the get go. so its not like i was throwing that idea around. it was already in place.

and fromia stars are more often than not, harder to keep over orange linkias. but you have a good sized tank to sustain one obviously.

next thing people are going to start telling me that i cant keep croceas under 70w of halide. im sure this will be interesting convo!

[kathainbowen]

No, we're not going to tell you about that. The mandarin dragonet discussion is a moot point anyway, since you are listening but disregarding the concern of others anyway. That's why I tried to offer advice as opposed to just criticism. If you understand our concern, then why do you slap us in the face for sharing it?

/rant.

Sorry. Your comment on the clams ruffled my feathers in the wrong way.

However, might I inquire, is this your first nano/pico sized tank? If not, what's the smallest you've gone done to gallon wise, out of curiosity?

[Myka]

Originally posted by LobsterOfJustice
Ladies and gentlemen, this is the dark side of our hobby.

Bingo.

[agoutihead]

sometimes simple sharing quickly turns into badgering. i always appreciate help and information, thats why im on here.

but there are reefers out there that are capable of handling some things in a reef that the majority are not. and everyone just assumes that everyone is the majority, and doesnt take into consideration certain individuals desire and knowledge to succeed.

this is my smallest feat so far, i wouldnt want to go any smaller only because i want to fit alot of corals into the tank.

i also plan on using the 70w sunpod for corals and clams.

i have pretty much done what TOTM did in his tank, but changed things he had problems with, and tweaked things i thought would be better for a setup like this. i feel very confident in my expedition that i will be able to maintain water parms at a very stable level.

i also plan on having an ATO.

[Aquabucket]

Even if you get the mandarin to live long term I think it looks silly to have one in such a small tank. Both the TOTM and yourself are conducting your livestock choices in poor taste IMO.

[agoutihead]

on another note aqua, how do you like running your breeder without a skimmer? this is the route i am trying to go even on a larger 75 gallon reef i am planning in the future.

how long have you been skimmerless?

[Aquabucket]

Been doing it for years now. 18 months with the 40 so far.

Why don't you wait till you get the 75 going for a mandarin? You will win-over a lot more friends and gain more respect here if you do. I am not one to pass judgment though ~ just here to state my opinion.

You should really consider a pisitol shrimp with the orange spotted goby. It is a good size tank for observing their behavior and I think you would enjoy it!

[agoutihead]

well alot of people would say your nuts for going skimmerless... but you are doing it successfully.

i would really like to do the pistol shrimp/goby pair, but i have read that its a real gamble that they actually pair up?

any particular shrimp for the orange spotted?

[Aquabucket]

Its less of a gamble than trying to keep a mandarin and far less work. In a tank your size they will have almost no choice but to pair up.

Nobody calls me nuts for going skimmerless once they see my results and the success of others.

[agoutihead]

hey im with you on the skimmerless... i personally feel it pulls too much beneficial stuff out of the water. but it does have its perks for maybe all sps dominate tanks i suppose. or aggressive tanks as well.

i really do want to do the combo shrimp/goby... any ideas for the best shrimp with the orange spotted?

[Aquabucket]

The one I like the best is the Randall's Pistol Shrimp - Alpheus randalli.

I had one paired with a hi-fin goby and it came out of its burrow a lot. They are fun to watch as they maintain their burrows and come out for food.

In your thread title you asked for personality and a pistol shrimp goby combo is as good as it gets for a nano.

[agoutihead]

i checked them out on saltwaterfish... i like them cause they remind me of a coral banded.

it doesnt say what their temperments are?

i like the tiger pistol shrimp too, it says its tempermant is bold.

what is the difference in personality out of these two?

[Aquabucket]

Bold = not shy. They are harmless though. They will make a snapping sound when threatened or sometimes at night.

[Scottkelly911]

I agree with Aqua, that's the same pistol I've got with my Hi-fin. It's often called a Candy Cane Pistol. I didn't realize you wanted a Orange spotted, I was thinking you wanted a diamond, my appologies for that. But you know how I feel about the Mandarin, no reason to beat a dead horse. As far as Fromia vs. Linckia, Fromia is definitely the hardier of the two, but as everything in this hobby, some people have different experiences.

BTW, I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence, just trying to impart my knowledge from many years of reefing.

for what it's worth, another really fun fish that might be good for a such a small tank with tons of personality would be a Pygmy Geometric hawkfish. Normally they get lost in big systems never to be seen again since they're so shy, but in such a small tank he'd be viewable much more often and with less places to hide, he'd get used to you, so you'd actually get to see him. Just make sure if you get one that he's eating at the LFS because they can be very difficult to start eating.

[kathainbowen]

Originally posted by agoutihead
but there are reefers out there that are capable of handling some things in a reef that the majority are not. and everyone just assumes that everyone is the majority, and doesnt take into consideration certain individuals desire and knowledge to succeed.

this is my smallest feat so far, i wouldnt want to go any smaller only because i want to fit alot of corals into the tank.

.... I'm not saying you're not capable, but I am about to say something you're most likely not going to appreciate hearing.... you need to listen very carefully to pretty much everything that's been said in this thread.

Nano tanks, especially reef tanks, are a careful balancing act that requires judicial discretion. Chemical content, temperature, and water quality can fluctuate all day long. One misstep, and a seemingly perfect nano or pico sized tank can go downhill in no time (the smaller the tank, the faster it katos!). I know this is going to sound quite silly, but I try to think about nano tanks are half scientific study/research and half art. You have to use a very soft touch when it comes to fish-based livestock for smaller tanks, exercising a heavy self-restraint when it comes to purchasing decisions. I'm not saying that you can't handle it, just that you need to be aware of and prepared for certain facts in keeping nano and pico sized tanks. You're stepping into a totally new ball park at nano and pico sized tank. The concept's the same, but the rules are slightly different.

That being said, since this is your first nano/pico sized tank, here is my advice on stocking/ schtuff.

1.) Myka had the best advice in his or her first post, that it was way too many fish for a small tank, that you should only pick one, or perhaps two fish at the most.

2.) Mandarin: if you must, wait for 6 months to a year at the least before adding it to ensure the tank is really well cycled with an excellent pod population. The best way to tell when it's ready is to wait until a few hours into the non-photo period of your tank and hold a flashlight over the tank. If you see good sized swarms, that's good. If not, wait longer. I'd still recommend against it, but, if you must, definitely attempt to culture pods as well as try to get your mandarin using the "mandarin diner" as previously discussed. Also, if you must, I would really recommend you keep it by its self. Most of the fish that will be small enough or passive enough to be kept successfully with the mandarin will also pick at pods. The goal is to maximize pods in the tank, as opposed to having other fish eating them on your dragonet!

3.) Maroon clown: nix this in general. It's going to get too big and aggressive for that small of a tank, especially if you want success with the Mandarin. In that small of a tank, it's most likely that a maroon clownfish, even a more timid/docile specimen will just bully the mandarin and pretty much anything else you put in there, starting with simple nipping as it's small and getting progressively worse and worse as it gets older.

3.) Neon goby/clown goby: this would be the best picks out of everything you had suggested. If you don't go with anything else, you might be able to keep a small group of neon gobies and try to get some breeding action going!



Hopefully I've convinced you to back out and start with a clean slate when it comes to contemplating your stocking options. (To quote Roma Dirge's The Cat With a Really Big Head "I like to think a big head means a big brain, but, then again, I like the think magical lung beasts crawl out of my butt late in night in search of food.") Either way, whatever you do, good luck.

[Socotroco]

In my 29gal. tank I have 3 black damsels and they are great. They are always swiming around and eat very good. And are atractive 2.

[bosscrab]

I like the goby cool to watch and reef safe

[In Deep Water]

Originally posted by Myka


UNLESS you manage to find one that eats pellet or frozen foods. I've had my name in the hat for a Mandarin like that at 4 different LFS for over a year and none of them have had one yet. [/B]

Guess I should be glad I live in Florida. My LFS has the spotted and green mandarins in all the time. And they feed em frozens in the store.