Live Sand a scam - Page 2

Lightsluvr · 12/11/2009, 06:15 AM

My first tank, I used the CaribSea Fiji Pink live sand... what the heck, that's what the LFS sold me when I bought the tank. At that time, I didn't know live sand from siccum...

I think I paid around $30 for a 20# bag. Pretty pricey for some bacteria...

Since that first experience, I have purchased CaribSea dry sand, most recently their Seaflor Select Grade Aragonite. I like the texture of that mix, as do my sand-sifters. It is less inclined to be blown about by powerheads and closed loop.

I draw the line at putting silica sand in my tank. Some folks I respect on here have said it makes no difference. Other folks whose opinions I respect report significant issues with silica sand. I err on the side of caution.

If you're in the market for dry aragonite sand, a certain large box pet store is selling 40# bays of the Seaflor Select for $26.99 and they are offering very cheap shipping for orders over $60. This offer is not available in their stores, but in their online site.

LL

Frick-n-Frags · 12/11/2009, 06:38 AM

no tests done by me, but wow does it max out my "useless overpriced BS-o-meter" every time i see some. and IF i was going to spike a system to life fast, i would use the bacteria-in-a-bottle, so i had more control and more idea of the amounts.

Bontrager · 12/11/2009, 08:13 AM

While just a novice as far as reef keeping is concerned, I just started a 66 gallon Red Sea Max 250 with two 20lbs bags of CaribSea "Live Sand" and 40 lbs of estiblished live rock from another tank.

8 hours after the live sand and rock I added 40 lbs of live rock from TBS along with the critter package after I acclimated them to the water temp and salinity. 5 days later I added a 5 pack of nano polyps and two LPS.

The tank in now 16 days old and doing fine. So far with my skimmer running 24 hrs per day is has yet to collect anything.

Today I will be picking up any addition 25lbs of Premium Deco Rock from a company called Live Rock and Reef. They claim this premo rock at 6.75 per pound has been in the ocean for over 21 years and is teaming with life.

If I get what is shown in the picture on their web site it will be the finest live rock that I have ever purchased ( and the best looking also).

Thanx for all the support that I have received from the members of this forum and as soon as space and money permits I will go for a small Zero Edge Aquarium for probably clams and SPS.

stanlalee · 12/12/2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

Live sand doesn't mean that it's teaming with little critters it means that there's live nitrifying bacteria on the sand.

That is usually a huge misconception when people talk about live sand and live rock. It has nothing to do with how many pods, worms and other hitchhikers come with it, it solely means bacteria.

I disagree.

what made live sand "live" (before pre packaged damp sand marketing) was its handling.

"real" live sand:

a) almost always came from the florida keys where transit time was little to none to keep the microfauna intact and alive.
b) kept in a running holding system after collection able to sustain whatever critters were present during collection
c) shipped to order overnight or 2nd day air (order placed, sand pulled from the running system, weighed and shipped same day overnight or 2nd day air in a plastic lined box damp).

"real" live sand became popular with deep sand beds and had NOTHING to do with bacteria. the sole purpose of aquiring "real" live sand was because the sand critters were neccessary for properly maintaning a DSB. anything you added to your DSB such as a sand sifting star ect essentially destroyed your expensive "active" live sand bed by diplenishing required critters.

any sand or rock dipped in water has nitrifying bacteria and critters are here nor there as well (too many variable: where collected, transit time, how its held, how its cured ect. there could be anywhere from none to tons). "live" rock simply means it came from the ocean and meets a loose accepted criteria with handling and transit time. "live" sand USE TO meet a simular criteria to be considered "live" (and being damp sand critter mortality was never as high as live rock. you would always see critters with "real" live sand. if not you got poor quality or fake live sand). bagged sand marketing changed the meaning of live sand.

you can still buy "real" live sand. THIS is "real" live sand (and note the associated cost per lb):
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11...ot_parent_id=7

elegance coral · 12/12/2009, 08:22 AM

Nitrifying bacteria need massive quantities of oxygen. This is why bioballs are kept above the water line, and the lower areas of sand and rock become oxygen deprived. Even if those bags of "live sand" started out with large populations of nytrifying bacteria, how long could they survive in an air tight bag? Not long. That's simply not an environment capable of supporting large numbers of these bacteria. Could some bacteria survive? Probably, but not enough to make any real difference in the system. Definitely not enough to justify doubling the price of the sand.

I agree with the OP. It's just another scam designed to get our money.

Sisterlimonpot · 12/12/2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanlalee

bagged sand marketing changed the meaning of live sand.

I can agree with that, what is considered live sand in a bag would only mean bacteria, elegance coral, that's why there's an expiration date on the bag, I wouldn't pay top dollar for a bag that was past it's expiration.

When I see members from a local club selling live sand from their tank I look at that the same way you do stanlalee, (sand teaming with stars, worms and other little beneficial creatures). But when where talking about it from a bag than it's just the bacteria that you're paying extra for. And I'm not saying it's necessary to start a tank with bagged live sand, that's usually a corner you can cut to save money. And get a baby food jar of sand from an established tank. That will be enough to seed a tank and get it populated with bacteria and critters.

There are definite benefits of starting out with live sand (in a bad) but that is something each individual has to weigh and decide for themselves if it’s what they want.

lloydkeller · 12/13/2009, 02:25 PM

a waste of money how long dose that set on the shelf ? no telling whats in it

firebirdude · 12/13/2009, 05:26 PM

I just set up a new tank with 100% dead/dry rock and sand. How can I give the benfical bacteria a kick start WITHOUT adding sand from another tank? The sand I'm using is extremely fine and doesn't look like any sand I've seen around me. I don't want to mix it with someone elses different grain/color sand. Can I just dump some zooplankton in there?

Sisterlimonpot · 12/13/2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firebirdude

I just set up a new tank with 100% dead/dry rock and sand. How can I give the benfical bacteria a kick start WITHOUT adding sand from another tank? The sand I'm using is extremely fine and doesn't look like any sand I've seen around me. I don't want to mix it with someone elses different grain/color sand. Can I just dump some zooplankton in there?

zooplankton isn't going to add all the beneficial sand sifters. If you're concerned with mixing sands... A cup of sand from another tank isn't going to be enough to change the way things look. The larger sand will disperse and you won't notice.

If it's bacteria that you want it will happen just be patient. Toss a dead shrimp in there to kickstart the ammonia.

firebirdude · 12/13/2009, 07:03 PM

If the sand and rock I used was 100% dead dry... and has been for years... what ammonia is there going to be anyway???

uncleof6 · 12/14/2009, 12:34 AM

The ammonia will come from the decomposing shrimp. The bacteria, are already there, they just need ammonia for energy to multiply. If it is a true live sand bed you are after, that is another whole 30 or 40 threads worth.

Regards,

Jim

lordofthereef · 12/14/2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blownsvt

I don't know that it is a scam persay. Is it needed? no it's not but you can also start a tank with dry rock if you want vs. live rock. I went the live sand route mostly because it was not all that much more expensive and it does not require all the washing process you go through with other stuff.

I think this is extremely well said. Frankly the only way you can consider it a scam is if you can show that there actually is no life in the bag.

lordofthereef · 12/14/2009, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lloydkeller

a waste of money how long dose that set on the shelf ? no telling whats in it

As said before, there IS an expiration date printed on the bags in most cases.

12/11/2009, 06:15 AM	#26
Lightsluvr Tangaroa to 500 gallons Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 5,855	My first tank, I used the CaribSea Fiji Pink live sand... what the heck, that's what the LFS sold me when I bought the tank. At that time, I didn't know live sand from siccum... I think I paid around $30 for a 20# bag. Pretty pricey for some bacteria... Since that first experience, I have purchased CaribSea dry sand, most recently their Seaflor Select Grade Aragonite. I like the texture of that mix, as do my sand-sifters. It is less inclined to be blown about by powerheads and closed loop. I draw the line at putting silica sand in my tank. Some folks I respect on here have said it makes no difference. Other folks whose opinions I respect report significant issues with silica sand. I err on the side of caution. If you're in the market for dry aragonite sand, a certain large box pet store is selling 40# bays of the Seaflor Select for $26.99 and they are offering very cheap shipping for orders over $60. This offer is not available in their stores, but in their online site. LL __________________ Click on my username and select "Lightsluvr's Home Page" for a recap of our build thread - AGE Hybrid Tank in a 500G system with dedicated fish room. (Takes a few minutes for photos to load) Leave a note if you stop by... Current Tank Info: 350G AGE Hybrid reef tank. 500G+ total water volume. Three sumps for filtration. Barracuda Gold return and Hammerhead Gold closed loop pumps. DIY T5 light system on rails. MP40W x3 to supplement closed loop. 130G Water management system.

12/11/2009, 06:38 AM	#27
Frick-n-Frags Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: north central OH Posts: 10,740	no tests done by me, but wow does it max out my "useless overpriced BS-o-meter" every time i see some. and IF i was going to spike a system to life fast, i would use the bacteria-in-a-bottle, so i had more control and more idea of the amounts. __________________ Only Dead fish swim with the current. Current Tank Info: 2 50 gal tanks, sump, still BB

12/14/2009, 12:34 AM	#36
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	The ammonia will come from the decomposing shrimp. The bacteria, are already there, they just need ammonia for energy to multiply. If it is a true live sand bed you are after, that is another whole 30 or 40 threads worth. Regards, Jim __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

12/11/2009, 08:13 AM	#28
Bontrager Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 123	While just a novice as far as reef keeping is concerned, I just started a 66 gallon Red Sea Max 250 with two 20lbs bags of CaribSea "Live Sand" and 40 lbs of estiblished live rock from another tank. 8 hours after the live sand and rock I added 40 lbs of live rock from TBS along with the critter package after I acclimated them to the water temp and salinity. 5 days later I added a 5 pack of nano polyps and two LPS. The tank in now 16 days old and doing fine. So far with my skimmer running 24 hrs per day is has yet to collect anything. Today I will be picking up any addition 25lbs of Premium Deco Rock from a company called Live Rock and Reef. They claim this premo rock at 6.75 per pound has been in the ocean for over 21 years and is teaming with life. If I get what is shown in the picture on their web site it will be the finest live rock that I have ever purchased ( and the best looking also). Thanx for all the support that I have received from the members of this forum and as soon as space and money permits I will go for a small Zero Edge Aquarium for probably clams and SPS.

12/12/2009, 08:22 AM	#30
elegance coral They call me EC Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: central Florida Posts: 6,208	Nitrifying bacteria need massive quantities of oxygen. This is why bioballs are kept above the water line, and the lower areas of sand and rock become oxygen deprived. Even if those bags of "live sand" started out with large populations of nytrifying bacteria, how long could they survive in an air tight bag? Not long. That's simply not an environment capable of supporting large numbers of these bacteria. Could some bacteria survive? Probably, but not enough to make any real difference in the system. Definitely not enough to justify doubling the price of the sand. I agree with the OP. It's just another scam designed to get our money.

12/13/2009, 02:25 PM	#32
lloydkeller Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ca Posts: 563	a waste of money how long dose that set on the shelf ? no telling whats in it

12/13/2009, 05:26 PM	#33
firebirdude User and Abuser Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,836	I just set up a new tank with 100% dead/dry rock and sand. How can I give the benfical bacteria a kick start WITHOUT adding sand from another tank? The sand I'm using is extremely fine and doesn't look like any sand I've seen around me. I don't want to mix it with someone elses different grain/color sand. Can I just dump some zooplankton in there?

12/13/2009, 07:03 PM	#35
firebirdude User and Abuser Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,836	If the sand and rock I used was 100% dead dry... and has been for years... what ammonia is there going to be anyway???