A Few Thoughts on P.Eichler's List

[melev]

It seems like this thread should be in the Responsible Reefkeeping Forum.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by melev
It seems like this thread should be in the Responsible Reefkeeping Forum.

Don't you mean the anti-human forum?


Sorry, I couldn't help myself... Yeah I agree, it seems like the best fit there.

[melev]

Well, we are hoping to make that forum more human and more useful. This topic (the RR forum) has been under consideration for some time now.

[Kahuna Tuna]

I have seen Peter's list many times over the years and I still feel that it is one of the most well written and informative pieces that any aquarist, especially the newbie, should read and become familiar with. I dont believe that this list or any of the information contained within could possibly be construed as anything but an attempt to keep people from making poor livestock choices. To insinuate that this list is somehow counterproductive to our hobby is a stretch at best.

You want to know what will get a ban on collection faster than you can say "I'll take the Moorish Idol please"? Continueing to waste and needlesssly kill thousands and thousands of fish every year that have little to no chance of survival in our aquariums. We need to police ourselves and stop being so wasteful or else someone else will do it for us, and that later scenario is something I'm hoping to help avoid, NOT encourage.

I couldn't agree more. Well stated Peter.

[dwd5813]

My first statement here is potentially the most important i will make in this entire post, and that is, I am someone who has several years of experience maintaining an african cichlid tank, and save for some glass cleaning, and preparation of food for and feeding lemon sharks, sand tiger sharks, cownose rays, and some other sw fish during a short time as a volunteer at a not so local public aquarium, I have no real experience dealing with saltwater fish. that said, take my opinions however you wish, but realize they are my own, and i am not going to tell ANYONE what to do or how to do it, cause i just dont have that right.


okay, disclaimer provided.



i feel like there are good points being made on both sides of this debate. i believe that peter's intention is to provide those new to this hobby some valuable information that they may not find elsewhere, or that they may be able to match up with similar accounts in an effort to sift through all of those that they have seen, and make up their own mind. i think that people who are in situations such as mine(read:newbies)owe it to themselves and to the creatures they intend to keep to research as much as possible and learn the requirements of each creature so that they may be successful. lists such as peter's are, in my opinion, extremely valuable for new folks. does this mean that i read one such list and immediately cross off each animal on it? no. no it does not. what this list provides to me is an idea, and a place to start. i think that reading lists like this, or seeing posts elsewhere about such things as mandarins and the necessity for established tanks and healthy populations of copepods, leads people to think and research before jumping in and buying a fish because it looks cool. i for one would be very upset with myself if i went out and bought a fish and then found out that it wasnt going to eat anything i had to feed it, or could get to feed it. i have been researching reef tanks for the past couple of years, and i will continue to do so for the rest of my life. will a list like either one of peter's ever dictate to me what i can or can not keep? the answer is a resounding no. HOWEVER, lists such as these inspire me to find out more about the creatures that populate them and learn for myself whether or not i would be able to provide the right conditions, or if i want to for that matter . i say good job, peter, and thank you for your efforts!

i think hankthetank makes a good point by saying that people need to experiment with the as yet impossible in order to make advancements. i dont think, however, that this idea is liscense for people to go out and get whatever they want, and figure it out as they go.

as i said in the beginning, im a newbie, so dismiss me at will, but thats what i was thinkin while reading this thread.

have a good day!

[hankthetank]

Peter I think you know that I could just as handily dissect your dissections.Let's cut the crap and get to the heart of this matter.We both possess inquisitive and insightful minds .We are separated by one thing.You feel that animals possess rights.I do not.My reasons for this have been previously stated and will not be repeated at this time.Have a nice day!

[dc]

I removed a couple posts, and not sure if this needs to be locked. We're looking for a healthy debate here, why is it that can't seem to happen when it's something important?

[jeffnsa]

dwd5813 summed all this up the best, well written and thank you. you took the words right out of my mouth. i personally have never seen this list and i guarantee many others have not either but it should be put out to all the lfs's for beginers to get an idea of what they can handle.

[loosecannon]

Hankthetank: I`m with you on this 100%. I took notes of a lot of tre comments and they wore wrong or vary misleding at best! When I tryed vary nicely to corect him he made fun of my spelling. A vary sad guy with a vary big ego. I fell so sorry for guys like that. some guys give info to nebies, like its the law. when in fact its misleding at best! Hay Barbar, thank you for saying what needed to be said. peter the advances in our hobby over the last 10 to 15 years have been veary litte? The hobby has gronewild! This hobby has gone farther in the last 10 years than in the previst 30! we`ve reached the point where they will be very small advancements ? Advancements are being made all the time . The big breakthroughs in this hobby have already been made? That`s what the guy who made the wheel sad! We`re still using the same basic forumlas, we used many years a go? Like under gravel filters! Any body out thar stilluse one of those? Fellacious analogy it sounds right to me! The reality is many of these species on your lest have about as good of a chance as any under the right cundishons. I also was one of the first if not the first to incorpoate highly nutritional dried seaweed into fish, I call it nori I sell it at the super market! I most admit I`m a little offended at the fact you don`t like to be corakted when your wrong. I like debateing with you to peter and I certainly wish you no ill will ether. P.S.I hope my spelling was better this time. good point Icefire.

[wayne in norway]

The pont about batfish is the enormous adult sizes that so few people have the tanks to adequately home, especially as they are not very suitable for reef setups. So you can experiment till you go blue in the face, and you get 100% of imported juvies eating perfectly, you still haven't resolved the issue that it's simply an impractical fish for the vast majority of marine aquarists, and the very vast majority are utterly doomed the moment they're caught.

I'm fully aware that all fish die eventually - there is a difference between fish that are difficult to feed (where advance is possible, practical) and where gross practicality makes the import almost immoral ('batfish in stock with free 250 gallon tank')

[hankthetank]

I agree Wayne and when I sell a Batfish the buyer is informed of 4 facts.#1 that the fish has the genetic potential to be the size of a trash can lid.#2 that fish do not grow to the size of the tank but to their genetic potential as modified by diet and water conditions.#3 that if a fish is not growing it is dying!The max size of fish is indeterminate within the frame of reference laid out by the first two facts.Healthy fish never stop growing until they die.#4 that when the fish is big nobody will want it including me.After all that is said the customer is free to do as they see fit.Do a lot of people buy the fish anyway?Yes.As far as morality goes that is something which by definition we must each choose for ourselves.The problem as I see it lies with people feeling entitled to impose their morality on others,by whatever means.

[hankthetank]

Loosecannon where is Port Kent?Uh your spelling is pretty bad but your thoughts are clear and well organized.It's apparent that you possess the same intellectual optimism as I.Feels great doesn't it!
Hank

[hankthetank]

A really twisted thought just popped into my head.If all the folks who support lists of this type want to make a real difference in minimizing the waste of life inherent in our hobby.consider this idea.Rally for laws requiring air cargo companies to give priority to living cargo.The creature most ethically captured,most highly suitable for captive life in both its husbandry and its ethical standpoints doesn't stand a chance if it gets bumped repeatedly or mistaken for a basketball by an uncaring ramp worker.The losses caused by these reasons are preventable if we can just get the airlines to do what's right!This would make a difference both now and in that glistening future where only suitable species are kept.It's twisted because even though such a law would undoubtably benefit my bottom line by minimizing losses which I must eat(even considering the inevitable increase in air freight rates)I look forward to fighting it tooth and nail.But that's just me.

[King-Kong]

So Hank, where do you draw the line when it comes to a list informing users of difficulty in fish? Should no resource exist? Should consumers not know of potential difficulties in keeping certain species?

How far would you accept going in informing the general aquarium public (not those attempting research, or expert keepers) on the difficulties of keeping certain species.

[hankthetank]

K-K read or reread my last post to Wayne.As the seller it is my responsibility to accurately describe the thing I am selling be it a bag of sand,a used car,or the rarest most beautiful most unkeepable fish there is.Then the choice is yours.Everything that is kept now that wasn't keepable when I started in the trade is kept because of people trying to do what everyone else knows is impossible.Most of the well respected names in this hobby started out by mistreating a carnival goldfish.But they learned.And kept learning.More than most of us here did.Shouldn't everyone have that opportunity?

[loosecannon]

Sorry for the spelling Hankthe tank , My last spelling test was the 5 grad. I brok the guys nose and he gave me an F. at the time I thout I one the disagrimint, now i`m not so shor? Port kent is in northern ny . big lake lots of trees few pepole. I came here from long island to raise my son . Hank thats agood Idea. I know that some fish in hawii can be keepet ther, but know were els. the fish don`t have to go so far.

[loosecannon]

So King ong who should know the needs of the fish , me who is shelling out 30$ bucks, or some 16 year old kid makeing 4.25 an hour. hum let me think let me think let me think , tuff call, tuff call!

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hankthetank
I agree Wayne and when I sell a Batfish the buyer is informed of 4 facts.#1 that the fish has the genetic potential to be the size of a trash can lid.#2 that fish do not grow to the size of the tank but to their genetic potential as modified by diet and water conditions.#3 that if a fish is not growing it is dying!The max size of fish is indeterminate within the frame of reference laid out by the first two facts.Healthy fish never stop growing until they die.#4 that when the fish is big nobody will want it including me.After all that is said the customer is free to do as they see fit.Do a lot of people buy the fish anyway?Yes.As far as morality goes that is something which by definition we must each choose for ourselves.The problem as I see it lies with people feeling entitled to impose their morality on others,by whatever means.

So Is it safe to assume you sell these batfish to people with multiple hundred gallon tanks in which they will keep the batfish with no reef fish since "they are not built to compete with fish that evolved to survive a reef"? Give me a break about me imposing my morality on people, this isn't about morality, it's about informing people.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hankthetank
K-K read or reread my last post to Wayne.As the seller it is my responsibility to accurately describe the thing I am selling be it a bag of sand,a used car,or the rarest most beautiful most unkeepable fish there is.Then the choice is yours.Everything that is kept now that wasn't keepable when I started in the trade is kept because of people trying to do what everyone else knows is impossible.Most of the well respected names in this hobby started out by mistreating a carnival goldfish.But they learned.And kept learning.More than most of us here did.Shouldn't everyone have that opportunity?

The biggest part of the reason for this list is the sellers. If there were more responsible sellers and collectors out there this list would be pointless. Sorry, but the average LFS worker is a bigger part of the problem than the cure. But kudos to you for keeping people informed of their purchases

[hankthetank]

Uh Pete I did mention the words"trash can lid" right?When I'm asked directly"what size tank does this batfish need" my answer is always the same"olympic sized".And when the customer tells me that they have a 55,"but we're going to get a bigger tank"I should according to you say"well I will not sell you this fish until you have a bigger tank"You seem to want to relieve the buyer of all responsibility for doing what you consider irresponsible.But tell me what do you think about my air freight law?

[loosecannon]

pete pete pete, The average lfs worker no no no . I the end user shelling out the bucs, if I can`t look up the needs of some fish how can I profanity removed on some kid. not for nothen pete I have been fixing a lot of your missteks. how could I ever think a kidd would get right!

[hankthetank]

I must disagree with the statement that the sellers are the biggest problem.We are all responsible for maintaining a level of situational awareness of the world around us.I hold each person solely responsible for their level of awareness.Many people would rather figure out how the world is rather than be told how it is.They should have that opportunity.

[barbra]

What started out as a very stimulating philosophical discussion seems to be breaking down into microscopic nitpicks and some needless personal digs have been made. If Mr. Eichler is feeling that he has been attacked for attempting to provide a beneficial service I could certainly sympathize with those feelings.

It is as fruitless to debate an individual species' placement on the list as it is to try to convert someone to another religion. Nobody is going to come out ahead on that topic.

I would encourage you guys to steer back to the main point and discus the ethical reasons for/against the selling of delicate species in general. That was a much more beneficial discussion.

[hankthetank]

Oh Loosecannon,you have no need to apologize for anything AFAIK!

[King-Kong]

Originally posted by loosecannon
So King ong who should know the needs of the fish , me who is shelling out 30$ bucks, or some 16 year old kid makeing 4.25 an hour. hum let me think let me think let me think , tuff call, tuff call!

Uhmm.. everyone should? That's why Eichler's list should be required reading.

I have never seen such a resistance to the spreading of information.. very odd. Almost like you're insulted that someone would call something difficult to have / avoid if not experienced. Very bizarre.