A Few Thoughts on P.Eichler's List

[hankthetank]

Barbra those "microscopic nitpicks"are the fundamental basics of a stimulating and important discussion in our hobby.The use of the Batfish was an example.The principle holds true for every other species on the list as well.So far and no doubt due to the diligent work of dc I have seen nothing besides a single incoherent ramble that has seriously derailed this discussion.If you or anyone has anything to offer please do not hesitate as this is just another example of how learning new stuff can be a difficult and painful process.

[King-Kong]

Originally posted by hankthetank
K-K read or reread my last post to Wayne.As the seller it is my responsibility to accurately describe the thing I am selling be it a bag of sand,a used car,or the rarest most beautiful most unkeepable fish there is.Then the choice is yours.Everything that is kept now that wasn't keepable when I started in the trade is kept because of people trying to do what everyone else knows is impossible.Most of the well respected names in this hobby started out by mistreating a carnival goldfish.But they learned.And kept learning.More than most of us here did.Shouldn't everyone have that opportunity?

Ok, and you know the requirements of the list, and are responsible to relay that information.

But now let's take (what has been in my experience) as the more typical LFS experience: an employee with limited knowledge, wanting to make a sale, and a consumer with limited knowledge hoping the seller of the product knows what is up.

In my example, if both users would have read Eichler's list, they would be in a better position to take things easy with certain species, and avoid them until they read up and learned more about the requirements in keeping them.

Why must every person in this hobby make the same mistakes that others have already made? Why do so at the risk of killing/destroying resources. If someone else has made a mistake, then others should learn from that mistake, and I feel that's what his list does.

[hankthetank]

To be honest when I was young and stupid I always looked at lists like that as a menu of goals to strive for.Oh that's right, I still think that way!

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hankthetank
Uh Pete I did mention the words"trash can lid" right?When I'm asked directly"what size tank does this batfish need" my answer is always the same"olympic sized".And when the customer tells me that they have a 55,"but we're going to get a bigger tank"I should according to you say"well I will not sell you this fish until you have a bigger tank"You seem to want to relieve the buyer of all responsibility for doing what you consider irresponsible.But tell me what do you think about my air freight law?

It's simple, if I were doing the ordering for a LFS I wouldn't order the Batfish in the first place. You do order them and feel they're acceptable for the home aquarium and that is your right. I have in the past and would again deny people wishing to purchase livestock for what I felt were inappropriate setups. I don't want to relieve the customer of all responsibility, but I'm also not going to sell someone an animal that I think has little chance of survival. They can buy their Batfish at your store, not mine

Air freight can certainly be improved but in my years in the business I never saw it as a big issue. Overall the animals were handled well and delays were usually a result of weather.

[Serioussnaps]

This thread is worthless without the list and likely worthless with it. So where is the list?

[Anemone]

Originally posted by hankthetank
So far and no doubt due to the diligent work of dc I have seen nothing besides a single incoherent ramble that has seriously derailed this discussion.If you or anyone has anything to offer please do not hesitate as this is just another example of how learning new stuff can be a difficult and painful process.

Both you and loosecannon need to tone your comments down. Disagreement is fine, as is discussion and even argument, but your aggressive "style" tends to either A) discourage discussion or B) encourage flamefests.

Either change your posting style or "move on" to some other forum that appreciates that style of dialogue.

Kevin
RC Staff

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by loosecannon
pete pete pete, The average lfs worker no no no . I the end user shelling out the bucs, if I can`t look up the needs of some fish how can I profanity removed on some kid. not for nothen pete I have been fixing a lot of your missteks. how could I ever think a kidd would get right!

You following me around to various threads "fixing" my mistakes is getting rather tiring. It has become ubundantly clear that you have an agenda and that you're nitpicking to the enth degree. It's pointless to try and debate you, especially when half the time I barely understand you. How about we just agree to disagree...

[bureau13]

When I first saw the list, before I actually read it, I thought it was goign to be a "Ban the capture of the following fish" list. This of course would annoy me. Saltwaterfish.com has (or at least had) a blurb on their site saying they will refuse to sell more than one large angel to anyone, because you should never have more than one in a tank. This may be a "good idea" in general for newbies or people with small tanks, but there are plenty of larger tanks out there with multiple large angels doing just fine.

But I digress...Peter's list, now that I've actually read it, seems to be more of an informative list since plenty of the people who SHOULD know better (e.g. LFS employees) apparently do not. An LFS near me which frequently has batfish for sale recently had a shipment of Ornate butterflyfish. Right now, with what we know today, I don't believe any of those fish had a chance in hell of surviving. Now, do I think all those people who bought them wanted to keep them for a couple weeks and were OK with them perishing soon after? No, I'm sure most just had no idea, and would have avoided the purchase had they known. The LFS should have known not to order them, the collector should have known not to collect them, etc. That said, maybe some day research will come up with a prepared food that is a good substitute for coral polyps and we can all keep them fat and happy. However, there are a few people qualified to do that kind of research, and about a million times more who aren't. The first group has a real chance to advance the hobby. The second group is just going to kill a lot of fish. I don't really see it as a "fish rights" thing...but nobody benefits from that result.

OK, enough rambling, but any resource that informs people is a good resource, so...nice list.

jds

[Serioussnaps]

Originally posted by loosecannon
pete pete pete, The average lfs worker no no no . I the end user shelling out the bucs, if I can`t look up the needs of some fish how can I profanity removed on some kid. not for nothen pete I have been fixing a lot of your missteks. how could I ever think a kidd would get right!

What?

[Serioussnaps]

Originally posted by King-Kong
Uhmm.. everyone should? That's why Eichler's list should be required reading.

I have never seen such a resistance to the spreading of information.. very odd. Almost like you're insulted that someone would call something difficult to have / avoid if not experienced. Very bizarre.

King..required reading? Harkens back to the days of the red scare.

[hankthetank]

Bureau I agree with your thoughts on obligate corallivores like ornatissima and would only order such a fish for a specific customer who requested it.I don't want to watch a beauty like that die anymore than you do.But it is a fact that when you order fish if the fill rate is too low most suppliers will sub in what they have on hand to fill that box.Or instances occur where a shipment goes unclaimed.I have on occasion been offered boxes for free because of one problem or another and other instances where all I had to pay was freight.When that happens you take what you get.These animals are going to appear so we may as well try to learn to accomodate them.If my comments offended anyone that was not my intention.But I certainly don't apologize for anything I have posted here or elsewhere.My last word on this thread.

[Kahuna Tuna]

This thread is worthless without the list and likely worthless with it. So where is the list?

Its posted in the reef fishes forum as a stickie, Difficult and Special Care Species List.

Why must every person in this hobby make the same mistakes that others have already made? Why do so at the risk of killing/destroying resources. If someone else has made a mistake, then others should learn from that mistake, and I feel that's what his list does.

Exactly, THAT is the point of all of this. Ignorance is not always bliss. Great point K-K.

King..required reading? Harkens back to the days of the red scare.

Oh please.

[King-Kong]

Agree with the "oh please".

[melev]

Originally posted by hankthetank
The problem as I see it lies with people feeling entitled to impose their morality on others,by whatever means.

Since Reef Central is a community of posters that all chime in on every sort of topic, I don't see how one thread (the list) can be considered an imposition while another thread (this one) is acceptable.

I read the list. I've got 10 years in the hobby under my belt. I actually read it to learn more, and really found nothing worth disagreeing about. Each section was categorized to inform the reader what Peter felt was a good choice, bad choice, or really no choice at all.

How can you have issues with him stating his opinion?

[tcmfish]

Around here the major grocery store is jewel and some of you might albertsons who owns them. I have a few friends who work there and they have to go through training in order to better perform their job later. I'm sure many other jobs also have training I'm just giving an example. Now I was hired at a LFS about a year and a half ago and the most questioning I got was basically how to cycle a tank. Now I agree this list should be in pet stores posted and also LFS owners or staffing people should train their employee's so they know what they are talking about just like other jobs. Both sides have good points but the list is definately good because people who are new to the hobbie need to know. And also those qualified can if they want try to keep new or hard to keep species which is what a lot of people do already. Now when I worked at the LFS there maybe two or three local guys (our store wasn't the best and I no longer work there) who had very nice reef tanks knew about reef central but weren't frequent visitors and the rest had no idea. They just came in and said I want that fish so having this list here helps the people who know about reef central but those who know about RC are already too many steps ahead of those who are using the LFS for advice. So those people who currently work for LFS could bring the list in to the store and better inform the customer just make it a hand out at the counter or put it in their bag as they leave and those who have the experience will believe me try those harder to keep fish. I mean there have been regal angel threads on here with tons of posters with success stories and there have been morish idol threads and people will constantly push the boundaries so just let people do and quit arguing about if they will just try and get them started on the right foot.

[Kahuna Tuna]

In my opinion this list isn't meant for the advanced aquarist, for the most part because the true experts already know this. For folks who have been in this hobby for years, who read, study, and explore marine systems this list isn't anything eye opening. Sure they may be a species or a family that one hasn't given much thought to but for the most part these are organisms that have been challenging marine aquarists sine the very earliest days of our hobby. Even when fish like moorish idols and regal angels are being kept with greater success the vast majority are doomed right from the start. I think we as hobbiests aren't nessesarily served well when we see 20 people in a thread have success with a regal angel and never realize that thousands of these fish have perished in the meantime.

[dwd5813]

Originally posted by jeffnsa
dwd5813 summed all this up the best, well written and thank you. you took the words right out of my mouth.

Wow. thanks for that.

[pledosophy]

I don't get what the problem is. Many of us post on these boards frequently to try to help people out. Peter took the time and made a rather lengthy post about his opinions and experiences with many fish. When you've been on forums long enough you find yourself anwsering the same questions over and over. I have a few word documents that I cut and paste to respond to threads, don't see the big deal with someone posting a list. This after all is ReefCentral right?

Starting a thread outside the thread reffering to the list for the sole purposes of discrediting it, and attempts to do so covertly is kind of tacky IMO. It's been clear from the start what your intent was.

If your against people sharing ideas, and there experiences with other hobbyists, then Reef Central is no the place for you, I suggest you go elsewhere for that type of banter.

On the other topic that has emerged IMO I do think there comes a responsiblity when being a seller of any animal, not just fish. While I am one of the many that have mistreated a carnival fish, that does not mean that I am proud of that either. I was 5, forgive me. As adults, who are active in this hobby and obviously care about the animals we are keeping, we need to act with more concsiousness then a 5 year old kid who got lucky with a ping pong ball.

I have seen LFS owners tell customers, "No, I will not sell you that." I have watched them argue. Seen the customers leave upset even. Also seen the same customers comeback, tell the owner they got it somewhere else and it died. Those customers were then life long customers fo the LFS that told them no the first time. They knew they'd be could trust the LFS. Good business.

As an LFS owner people come to you looking for knowledge. Most know very little and will do part of what you tell them to. While a customers actions are out fo your control, you do have complete control over what you offer to sell them. Offering them something you know is going to die is not only unethical IMO, but it is also bad business.

I guess not everyone has the same value for life I do.

Do animals deserve right? Yes, they most certainly do, even if it is at the expense of human enjoyment. The legislative braqnch of the government agrees with me.

JMO

[scarter]

I wonder why hank picked peters post. there a numerous sources of information that discourage attempting to keep many species. One list that comes to mind is "Marine Fishes" there are several species in that book listed as not suitable for the home aquarium. Hank never mentioned any of the other sources of information that are available. seems like there may be another agenda.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by scarter
I wonder why hank picked peters post. there a numerous sources of information that discourage attempting to keep many species. One list that comes to mind is "Marine Fishes" there are several species in that book listed as not suitable for the home aquarium. Hank never mentioned any of the other sources of information that are available. seems like there may be another agenda.

I don't feel that Hank has any sort of personal gripe with me. His agenda is as simple as him wanting to express his opinion on a current topic on Reef Central. I don't agree with his opinion and I feel he incorrectly read into the purpose of the list. Despite that, I don't fault him for questioning my motives and expressing his feeling on the issue. I encourage people to question my reasoning for adding a species to the list; I'm not looking for blind faith here. I just wish people would not create a red herring, or question something on the list because they've kept a one eyed Heraldi Angel alive for a little while.

[Kahuna Tuna]

pledosophy- That was a great post, nicely done.

[happyface888]

Originally posted by Kahuna Tuna
pledosophy- That was a great post, nicely done.

Agreed, well said.

[OneDayMatt]

Originally posted by loosecannon
Hankthetank: I`m with you on this 100%. I took notes of a lot of tre comments and they wore wrong or vary misleding at best! When I tryed vary nicely to corect him he made fun of my spelling. A vary sad guy with a vary big ego. I fell so sorry for guys like that. some guys give info to nebies, like its the law. when in fact its misleding at best! Hay Barbar, thank you for saying what needed to be said. peter the advances in our hobby over the last 10 to 15 years have been veary litte? The hobby has gronewild! This hobby has gone farther in the last 10 years than in the previst 30! we`ve reached the point where they will be very small advancements ? Advancements are being made all the time . The big breakthroughs in this hobby have already been made? That`s what the guy who made the wheel sad! We`re still using the same basic forumlas, we used many years a go? Like under gravel filters! Any body out thar stilluse one of those? Fellacious analogy it sounds right to me! The reality is many of these species on your lest have about as good of a chance as any under the right cundishons. I also was one of the first if not the first to incorpoate highly nutritional dried seaweed into fish, I call it nori I sell it at the super market! I most admit I`m a little offended at the fact you don`t like to be corakted when your wrong. I like debateing with you to peter and I certainly wish you no ill will ether. P.S.I hope my spelling was better this time. good point Icefire.

No, your spelling was not better.

[Scuba_Steve]

Originally posted by hankthetank
To be honest when I was young and stupid I always looked at lists like that as a menu of goals to strive for.Oh that's right, I still think that way!

This is the type of thought process that will advance our hobby. Find a difficult species, find out why its difficult, and try to find a solution.

But do you want to know what will not advance our hobby? And I believe this is where Peter's list was pointed to. The newbie, picking fish at somewhat random cause they are pretty. Even a smart newbie, who may ask how big will this fish get? Oh this mandarin will only get a few inches, great! Ill take 2!

Advancements in this hobby will result from trial and error, true. But nothing will be advanced by newbies killing these fish with no knowledge of what they are doing with these specialized creatures, except in a 1:1,000,000,000 luck shot by someone accidentally dropping a banana in a batfish tank. Now the experienced hobbiest, who knows that young batfish live off fruit may come to that conclusion not by accident. For that person, great! Go buy one and test your therory.

In conclusion, this list is not going to stop an experienced hobbiest, who thinks he may have come up with a real solution to keeping one of these advanced creatures. On the contrary, it may just be a list for those people to look at and ask themselves, now how can I keep this fish? But in the end, it will save many fish from hobbiests that can not, or are not willing to take the extra effort to care for them. It will save many lives, many dollars spent, and many sad emotions when one dies especially by our kids.

[melev]

Well said.