HQI MH vs. regular single ended MH - Page 2

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 01:33 PM

http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp...ROD&ProdID=256

that is the "build it yourself" kit i was thinking about getting from hello lights, in the picture it shows it with 2 MH bulbs, but only gives you the option of 1. I dont think it actually comes with 2, which busts me out of the water.

1 HQI bulb is not enough light spread to cover the entire tank with a 12" hood, would a single ended give more light spread?

If not, I'm going to have to get T5's until I move and get a 4' tank.

Peter Eichler · 08/06/2007, 01:34 PM

Ok Rich... Now read the conclusion of this article from 2 years later than the original one I quoted. You seem to be taking his info and coming to different conclusions than he is. You can take issue with the info, but perhaps you should be having the debate with Sanjay and not myself.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...004/review.htm

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oct2274
rich, i think the one thing that doesn't factor in, and Sanjay had thought of when making that comment, is that there are better reflectors for DE.

But there really aren't. The best reflectors out there are all made for SE bulbs (lumenarcs, lumenmax, etc).

If you want to use spider reflectors, yeah, DEs will outperform, but they can't even come close to touching SEs in lumenarcs.

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 01:36 PM

Rich, Peter said the following...

As for lifespan, most people change them about once a year. Though recenly it has come to light :P that after the first couple months the decrease in light output is the greatest and with each passing month after that it is very small. In short the old belief that MH bulbs should be replaced every 12 months doesn't hold a whole lot of weight.

Thats where I was getting that info.

Wow, those Iwasaki's really do have some nice PAR and color! if I go single ended, I will get those for sure!

Peter Eichler · 08/06/2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agoutihead
http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp...ROD&ProdID=256

that is the "build it yourself" kit i was thinking about getting from hello lights, in the picture it shows it with 2 MH bulbs, but only gives you the option of 1. I dont think it actually comes with 2, which busts me out of the water.

1 HQI bulb is not enough light spread to cover the entire tank with a 12" hood, would a single ended give more light spread?

If not, I'm going to have to get T5's until I move and get a 4' tank.

I think T5s are a better choice for 36" tanks anyhow. I'd suggest 4-6 39w bulbs in the form of SLS retrofits with Icecap reflectors. Reefgeek will allow you to pay a few extra dollars to get the Icecap reflector with the SLS kits.

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agoutihead
Rich, Peter said the following...

As for lifespan, most people change them about once a year. Though recenly it has come to light :P that after the first couple months the decrease in light output is the greatest and with each passing month after that it is very small. In short the old belief that MH bulbs should be replaced every 12 months doesn't hold a whole lot of weight.

Thats where I was getting that info.

Wow, those Iwasaki's really do have some nice PAR and color! if I go single ended, I will get those for sure!

It is my oppinion that the information hes quoting holds true for both types of bulbs, assuming they are properly driven. If you start overdriving SEs on HQI ballasts though, you're on your own.

Yeah, the Iwasakis are monsters. I just wish they hadnt wussed out and made the 250de 14K another crappy mislabled 20K, and copied their 175

CyclistMT · 08/06/2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agoutihead
I only plan on keeping softies and lps mostly, but a little sps and a clam or two.

Well the only reason I was planning on using 2 bulbs on my 40 breeder was to space them out more so I dont have any dark spots in the top corners.

You think that 1 single ended MH positioned in the middle of the hood will light the entire tank top to bottom?

In my opinion, yes, with the Iwaski and a Lumenarc I believe you will be fine. However, in the interest of full disclosure, my opinion is based of the reading I've done (mostly Sanjay's stuff) as I don't have this equipment myselft yet. It is what I intend to purchase though.

Quote:

1 HQI bulb is not enough light spread to cover the entire tank with a 12" hood, would a single ended give more light spread?

Again, with a Lumenarc (or Lumenmax), yes. Other reflectors, probably not. However, the full size Lumenarc, especially, is a big reflector so you may not have room for it in your hood. Be sure to check that out when deciding on a reflector.

As Peter suggests, T5s my be a very good option for you. Not for me because I have to have the shimmer from MH.

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 01:45 PM

Yeah I was thinking of doing the 4 bulb retro fit, 2 day, 2 night from them.

The SLS, is that the TEK series?

I have another thread going, and people said that the icecap kit was best overall as the TEK is actually made for horticultal?

So the icecap kit should already come with the ice cap reflectors right?

oct2274 · 08/06/2007, 01:47 PM

just so everyone here knows...........lumenarc and lumen max reflectors are made for DE bulbs and not just SE.

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 01:49 PM

See thats the thing, I really really want the shimmer from MH.

My canopy is going to be 18" wide to fit my 40 breeder, would that be large enough to get a lumenarc reflector and 2 36" T5 fixtures all crammed in there?

I'm really surprised that a single ended Mh can fill the entire tank with light from top to bottom.

The following is a picture to a 20L with only a 1-150W HQI, and I think it looks really bad. I DO NOT want my tank to look anything like this if I use a single bulb...

http://www.nano-reef.com/gallery/sho...hp?photo=32551

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oct2274
just so everyone here knows...........lumenarc and lumen max reflectors are made for DE bulbs and not just SE.

Yes, but they're smaller, and therefore less effective. Part of the reason the Lumenarc is so effective is because its huge.

Also, DEs need to be shielded, which is part of the reason they're getting killed by SEs.

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agoutihead
See thats the thing, I really really want the shimmer from MH.

My canopy is going to be 18" wide to fit my 40 breeder, would that be large enough to get a lumenarc reflector and 2 36" T5 fixtures all crammed in there?

I'm really surprised that a single ended Mh can fill the entire tank with light from top to bottom.

The following is a picture to a 20L with only a 1-150W HQI, and I think it looks really bad. I DO NOT want my tank to look anything like this if I use a single bulb...

http://www.nano-reef.com/gallery/sho...hp?photo=32551

It wont look nearly that drastic in person. The camera makes it look worse than it is.

The vast majority of DE reflectors have a much narrower spread than SE reflectors. If you can't do it with an SE bulb, theres no chance in heck a DE will do it.

Peter Eichler · 08/06/2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Eichler

As for lifespan, most people change them about once a year. Though recenly it has come to light :P that after the first couple months the decrease in light output is the greatest and with each passing month after that it is very small. In short the old belief that MH bulbs should be replaced every 12 months doesn't hold a whole lot of weight. [/B]

This statement was made about MH as a whole, not just one type of bulb. The conclusion is that you should replace bulbs every few months of you want to most light output, but that's simply not reasonable. So, if you're happy with your light output after using the bulb for 6 months, then there is really no reason to up and replace them at 12 months because they haven't lost much output since the 6 month mark. IIRC correctly on average after the initial big dropoff MH bulbs lose about 1% a month when used with a typical light cycle. There's an article out there showing these results but I can't recall if it was Sanjay or someone else.

oct2274 · 08/06/2007, 01:53 PM

wow rich, you need to talk to Sanjay and set him in his place. From what you are saying Sanjay is an idiot lol.

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 01:57 PM

Really, so I could really do a single ended MH bulb over a 40 breeder and be fine huh?

What is the difference between lumenarc, and lumenmax?

Who sells these particular reflectors?

How wide are they really? Like I said, I have 18" in width to work with, but i need to put 2 - 36" T5 fixtures for actinics.

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oct2274
wow rich, you need to talk to Sanjay and set him in his place. From what you are saying Sanjay is an idiot lol.

Sanjay's stuff is great. Theres just been a couple of really nice bulbs that have come out since he said that. As of now, his statement doesnt agree with his numbers.

Also, most people ARE using crappy SE reflectors, and in that case the DE DOES win.

So, heres the lesson: Buy good reflectors.

OP: You'd probably be better off with a lumenarc mini, or if you wanted, the DE lumenarc version. The standard lumenarc may be a little too big for your tank.

oct2274 · 08/06/2007, 02:01 PM

I think spread of light is something to think about too. The SE reflectors tend to be more oriented to spread where the DE reflectors seem to be more oriented towards intensity and less spread.

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oct2274
I think spread of light is something to think about too. The SE reflectors tend to be more oriented to spread where the DE reflectors seem to be more oriented towards intensity and less spread.

Thats definitely the case, but which is more important is a question of the tank its being put on, and what you want to grow.

in most cases, DE reflectors have some pretty absurdly high areas, and then the rest of the tank is actually pretty low.

IE, you may have a 4x4" area in a DE tank thats got a ppfd of 1500 umols, and then the next 4" out are 500, and then after that 100.

On the SE, it may be a 4x4 area of 1000, then the next 4 inches out is 600, and the next 4 inches out is 400.

Considering acros only need about 350 umols, which is better?

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 02:06 PM

wow standard lumenarcs are really that big?

so a lumenarc mini with an Iwaski 15k will give me plenty of spread huh?

Where can I find a retro kit that offers the Lumenarc reflectors? (one that also has 2 - T5's for night actinic supplements.)

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 02:12 PM

are you trying to hang this, or put it in a hood?

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 02:17 PM

I'm going to mount it in a hood I build.

RichConley · 08/06/2007, 02:25 PM

You should be able to buy two seperate retros.

Although, if you run that Iwasaki bulb, you may not even need the T5s.

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 02:35 PM

Your saying buy a retro kit for the MH, and then buy a retro kit for the T5's?

I want the T5's so that I can just run them at night for actnic purposes, I do not want to have to supplement my daytime.

I would like to try and make the bulbs last as long as possible, so thats why I want a blue as can be bulb for the daytime, this way I wont need to run my actinics and use them up quicker.

What company sells retro kits with those lumenarc mini reflectors?

GlobalEvan · 08/06/2007, 03:20 PM

you want to run t5s as moonlights? isnt' that too much light for moonlights

My 40breeder with 1 150W XM15k HQI (the cheap kit from hellolights; bulb purchased elsewhere) and a regular output t5 running across the back.
I have a current HOT5 retro in the hood, but I can't get it to work. I'm gonna try replaceing the end caps with ice cap when I get some time.

agoutihead · 08/06/2007, 04:02 PM

No I plan on running a MH for the daytime, T5's for night time actinic viewing and then moonlights for "bedtime"

That tank looks really awesome all around. But what does it look like with just the MH on? Can you take a picture with just that?

What reflector are you using?

I only plan on having a few rocks in the middle, pyramid style, and then small "bat wings" or underwater breakwalls extending out of the back of the pyramid wrapping around the sides and almost metting in the front middle. Does that makes sense? Can you imagine that?

And on this mini break wall, I intend to grow out frags.

08/06/2007, 01:33 PM	#26
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp...ROD&ProdID=256 that is the "build it yourself" kit i was thinking about getting from hello lights, in the picture it shows it with 2 MH bulbs, but only gives you the option of 1. I dont think it actually comes with 2, which busts me out of the water. 1 HQI bulb is not enough light spread to cover the entire tank with a 12" hood, would a single ended give more light spread? If not, I'm going to have to get T5's until I move and get a 4' tank. __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 01:34 PM	#27
Peter Eichler Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 6,081	Ok Rich... Now read the conclusion of this article from 2 years later than the original one I quoted. You seem to be taking his info and coming to different conclusions than he is. You can take issue with the info, but perhaps you should be having the debate with Sanjay and not myself. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...004/review.htm __________________ April 2015 TOTM

08/06/2007, 01:36 PM	#29
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	Rich, Peter said the following... As for lifespan, most people change them about once a year. Though recenly it has come to light :P that after the first couple months the decrease in light output is the greatest and with each passing month after that it is very small. In short the old belief that MH bulbs should be replaced every 12 months doesn't hold a whole lot of weight. Thats where I was getting that info. Wow, those Iwasaki's really do have some nice PAR and color! if I go single ended, I will get those for sure! __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 01:45 PM	#33
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	Yeah I was thinking of doing the 4 bulb retro fit, 2 day, 2 night from them. The SLS, is that the TEK series? I have another thread going, and people said that the icecap kit was best overall as the TEK is actually made for horticultal? So the icecap kit should already come with the ice cap reflectors right? __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 01:49 PM	#35
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	See thats the thing, I really really want the shimmer from MH. My canopy is going to be 18" wide to fit my 40 breeder, would that be large enough to get a lumenarc reflector and 2 36" T5 fixtures all crammed in there? I'm really surprised that a single ended Mh can fill the entire tank with light from top to bottom. The following is a picture to a 20L with only a 1-150W HQI, and I think it looks really bad. I DO NOT want my tank to look anything like this if I use a single bulb... http://www.nano-reef.com/gallery/sho...hp?photo=32551 __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 01:47 PM	#34
oct2274 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 2,347	just so everyone here knows...........lumenarc and lumen max reflectors are made for DE bulbs and not just SE.

08/06/2007, 01:53 PM	#39
oct2274 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 2,347	wow rich, you need to talk to Sanjay and set him in his place. From what you are saying Sanjay is an idiot lol.

08/06/2007, 01:57 PM	#40
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	Really, so I could really do a single ended MH bulb over a 40 breeder and be fine huh? What is the difference between lumenarc, and lumenmax? Who sells these particular reflectors? How wide are they really? Like I said, I have 18" in width to work with, but i need to put 2 - 36" T5 fixtures for actinics. __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 02:01 PM	#42
oct2274 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 2,347	I think spread of light is something to think about too. The SE reflectors tend to be more oriented to spread where the DE reflectors seem to be more oriented towards intensity and less spread.

08/06/2007, 02:06 PM	#44
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	wow standard lumenarcs are really that big? so a lumenarc mini with an Iwaski 15k will give me plenty of spread huh? Where can I find a retro kit that offers the Lumenarc reflectors? (one that also has 2 - T5's for night actinic supplements.) __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 02:12 PM	#45
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	are you trying to hang this, or put it in a hood? __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/06/2007, 02:17 PM	#46
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	I'm going to mount it in a hood I build. __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 02:25 PM	#47
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	You should be able to buy two seperate retros. Although, if you run that Iwasaki bulb, you may not even need the T5s. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/06/2007, 02:35 PM	#48
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	Your saying buy a retro kit for the MH, and then buy a retro kit for the T5's? I want the T5's so that I can just run them at night for actnic purposes, I do not want to have to supplement my daytime. I would like to try and make the bulbs last as long as possible, so thats why I want a blue as can be bulb for the daytime, this way I wont need to run my actinics and use them up quicker. What company sells retro kits with those lumenarc mini reflectors? __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...

08/06/2007, 03:20 PM	#49
GlobalEvan Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lancaster PA Posts: 105	you want to run t5s as moonlights? isnt' that too much light for moonlights My 40breeder with 1 150W XM15k HQI (the cheap kit from hellolights; bulb purchased elsewhere) and a regular output t5 running across the back. I have a current HOT5 retro in the hood, but I can't get it to work. I'm gonna try replaceing the end caps with ice cap when I get some time. __________________ EvAN Current Tank Info: 40 breeder, with 20 sump, 15k MH

08/06/2007, 04:02 PM	#50
agoutihead Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,720	No I plan on running a MH for the daytime, T5's for night time actinic viewing and then moonlights for "bedtime" That tank looks really awesome all around. But what does it look like with just the MH on? Can you take a picture with just that? What reflector are you using? I only plan on having a few rocks in the middle, pyramid style, and then small "bat wings" or underwater breakwalls extending out of the back of the pyramid wrapping around the sides and almost metting in the front middle. Does that makes sense? Can you imagine that? And on this mini break wall, I intend to grow out frags. __________________ Experience the Liquid Realm...