New Skimmer – Price is no Object!

[shookbrad]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Price no object, eh? Import an ATB Kegelpfannen skimmer...

http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/kegelabschaeumer.html

Nice skimmer but nice price too $923!!!

[pjf]

Can it skim yellowing compounds (Gelbstoff) without ozone?

[Orangeman]

Isn't gelbstoff the guy who created Live-Aid? Why would you want him out of the water?

[30reef]

I have to ask what is an EE/EC?

Adding ozone to your existing setup WOULD remove the yellowing compounds from your water, raise your ORP and kill pathogens that would come into contact inside your skimmer. But you would also have to run the skimmer effluent through carbon to remove the residual, not to mention add a carbon "hat" to the skimmer's cup to prevent ozone odor. An air drier is also nec. But that would only add more equipment which is what your trying not to do. That's my only suggestion but you probably already knew that. I don't think any skimmer will remove all of the yellowing agents in aquarium water, no matter how efficient it is.
Why not sell both of your current skimmers to help cover the cost of 1 larger and use the carbon still? That would eliminate at least 1 of the 2 skimmers you use now.

[pjf]

Originally posted by 30reef
I don't think any skimmer will remove all of the yellowing agents in aquarium water, no matter how efficient it is.
Why not sell both of your current skimmers to help cover the cost of 1 larger and use the carbon still? That would eliminate at least 1 of the 2 skimmers you use now.

Currently, I have one skimmer (Tunze 9010) and one carbon media reactor (MRC FMC-415). I'd like to replace them with a better skimmer that can do both jobs: remove DOC's including Gelbstoff.

(1) If better skimmers cannot remove more DOC's, such as yellowing agents, what do they remove from the water column that my Tunze can't?

All skimmers can remove insoluble organic compounds or less soluble DOC's. Better skimmers should be able to remove:
- more soluble DOC's such as yellowing agents, and
- lower the concentration of DOC's in your water column further

(2) One test of lowered DOC concentration is the removal of yellowing agents. What skimmer can do this?

[mavgi]

Originally posted by shookbrad
Nice skimmer but nice price too $923!!!

nice price but a beast

[pjf]

We should evaluate skimmers like we evaluate washing machines. We don't look at how dirty the waste water is. We look at how clean the clothes are.

Frankly, I'm not impressed with with a skimmer collects. A Remora in a cesspool can collect more than a Bubble King in a well kept system. I prefer to look in the water column and see how clean it is. If it has yellowing compounds (Gelbstoff), the skimmer isn't worth the money.

The more money you spend on a skimmer, the "deeper" it should clean the water. In other words, it should skim more soluble DOC's such as yellowing compounds. If you can't see the results, it isn't worth it.

OK - What $923 skimmer can remove Gelbstoff? (No ozone, carbon, etc.)

[Pyrrhus]

The Deltec Turbo series has a chamber built into the skimmer for carbon etc. It wouldnt be entirely on its own, but it would fix your clutter situation and still achieve the stated goals.

[pjf]

Originally posted by Pyrrhus
The Deltec Turbo series has a chamber built into the skimmer for carbon etc. It wouldnt be entirely on its own, but it would fix your clutter situation and still achieve the stated goals.

Very true but the carbon media still needs periodic replacement and maintenance. If no skimmer can remove Gelbstoff, then what skimmers can produce the lowest DOC concentrations?

In other words, what skimmer can either:
(1) Lower the concentration of a certain difficult-to-skim DOC below what other skimmers can do, or
(2) Skim a DOC that is too soluble for other skimmers to touch.

Assume a small 75-gallon tank. I am not looking for a "bulk" skimmer that only skims overfed tanks. Links to test results with ORP meters, the Salifert Organics test, or other means of measuring DOC's would be nice if available.

[kodyboy]

schuran makes skimmers that can skim freshwater so maybe you should look into those

[Pyrrhus]

PJF, unfortunately I don't think that anyone (at least hobbyists) has the kind of data that you are looking for.

You could try the manufacturers directly and see if they have any figures for DOC reduction.

[marcrothschild]

No matter who makes the skimmer, they all mix air aind water to create bubbles and will be limited in what they can/will remove. While some work better than others, there are compounds that cannot be filtered from the water by this method regardless of how good the skimmer is. This is why its a good idea to employ multiple methods of filtration. Carbon is one of the best/cheapest ways at removing yelllowing compounds, just put it in a media bag in the sump, agitate the media every few days, and change it monthly.
The data you are looking for would envolve a well designed study that would be quite costly to do correctly. I dont think any manufacturer out there has done anything even close to this, and most of the info on skimmer performance out there is subjective at best.

[pjf]

Originally posted by marcrothschild
The data you are looking for would envolve a well designed study that would be quite costly to do correctly. I dont think any manufacturer out there has done anything even close to this, and most of the info on skimmer performance out there is subjective at best.

Since freshwater skimmers are designed to skim DOC's that are more soluble in freshwater, Schuran who makes these skimmers must be on to something. Perhaps Schuran knows how to make saltwater skimmers skim "deeper."

Such a test will not be hard or expensive to design. Here is a simplified test outline:

1. In your system, measure the level of a specific DOC type with the Salifert Organics test.
2. Stop your return pump but keep your skimmer running in your sump.
3. Test your sump with the Salifert Organics test every hour.
4. When the DOC concentration levels off, restart your return pump.
5. Your last measurement is the lowest DOC concentration that your skimmer can skim to.

Hopefully, the Salifert Organics test measures a DOC that can be skimmed. If it just measures Gelbstoff with a color card, I will be very upset.

We can propose other simple tests in a separate tank using water from a water change. You add an organic-based dye that can be moderately hard to skim but easily measured. You can compare two skimmers in separate tanks. There are many variations.

[manderx]

a tall countercurrent will produce the cleanest effluent. biggest problem with them is they have to be huge for the amount of water you push through them, otherwise all that water flowing down against the bubbles causes too much turbulence which then defeats the whole idea of true countercurrent flow. bubbles start off clean at the bottom and are exposed to cleanish water. then as they rise, they get dirtier and dirtier, and are exposed to dirtier and dirtier water. this gives you the strongest ability to maintain a steep concentration gradient.

[pjf]

Originally posted by manderx
a tall countercurrent will produce the cleanest effluent. biggest problem with them is they have to be huge for the amount of water you push through them, otherwise all that water flowing down against the bubbles causes too much turbulence which then defeats the whole idea of true countercurrent flow. bubbles start off clean at the bottom and are exposed to cleanish water. then as they rise, they get dirtier and dirtier, and are exposed to dirtier and dirtier water. this gives you the strongest ability to maintain a steep concentration gradient.

Hahnmeister speculated about the cleaning abilities of tall, low-air-turbulence skimmers in the "ati skimmer" thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1183677). He offered the ER180 & ER250 as examples of such tall, low turbulence skimmers. He knew of no skimmer research though. Can you provide any links or sources for the information that "a tall countercurrent will produce the cleanest effluent."

Thanks.

[manderx]

do you understand the concept of countercurrent exchange?

[rishma]

mavgi - it looks like ATB uses ehiem, but that is some amazing foam. needle wheel? mesh wheel?

did you buy one yet??

[pjf]

Originally posted by manderx
do you understand the concept of countercurrent exchange?

Countercurrent exchange means longer dwell time. You also get longer dwell time with tall skimmers. To reduce turbulence, you can lower the air intake, slow the countercurrent, or a number of other things.

Do you remember where you found information stating that "a tall countercurrent will produce the cleanest effluent?" Perhaps the source is a skimmer manufacturer that produces the countercurrent skimmers that I am looking for.

Thanks!

[30reef]

pjf, I'm honored that my question about your occupation prompted you to change the wording.

I hope you find the skimmer you're looking for.

30reef

[hahnmeister]

Besides the extended dwell time, a countercurrent means that the water has to pass through the upward flow of bubbles for a great interface... rather than co-current like the ATI, where the water is most likely to travel with the same water from bottom to top. Other single pass skimmers, like ASMs, and RS series ER's, dont have much interface at all... the water can simply enter at the bottom of the skimmer and take the path of least resistance straight to the standpipe just below... with no real interface in the top of the skimmer at all. According to Holmes-Farley, some turbulence is a good idea... there is a point where things can be too calm in the skimmer (only the neck is the place where calmer is always better).

As far as who makes the claim of countercurrent being the best, I think Randy as well as Escobal are both on board with that. As far as taller being better, Escobal... but many others agree.

http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/skimmer101.htm

According to Escobal, it takes upward of 2 minutes for some proteins to attach properly to a bubble after initial attraction.

[pjf]

Hahnmeister,

Thanks for returning us to the fundamentals of skimming that seems to have been forgotten in the marketplace. A quote from the link you provided is key to lowering DOC levels: "It was estimated by Escobal that some proteins take upwards of 2 minutes contact time with air to attach properly."

I’m afraid that except for recirculating skimmers, countercurrent principles are not in the vogue. One problem is the lack of water column testing for skimmer performance. The Salifert Organics test may start to change that.

What skimmers in the marketplace today employ countercurrent flow, extended dwell times, small bubbles, and low reaction chamber turbulence with the objective of minimizing aquarium DOC concentration?

Skimmers over 26� tall will be a tight fit in my cabinet and a floor standing unit must meet wife approval but I'm very interested in what you have found.

Thanks!

FYI, I looked at the specifications for Schuran’s freshwater skimmers (http://www.schuran.com/freshwater/abschaeumer_e.html). As soon as I get a response from Schuran about neck dimensions, I’ll post the air flow to neck area ratio.

[honda2sk]

Originally posted by pjf

• Particulate organic matter (POM),
• Dissolved organic compounds (DOC), and
• Yellowing compounds (Gelbstoff).

What skimmer can skim the above without additional media or algal filtration?


It would be nice if we can keep the price of the new skimmer to no more than the combined price ($452)

No skimmer can do it by itself. It is a combined effort. Chemical (carbon, ozone) algal, and skimming together.

First you say price no object then you say around $450. Can't be both.

[glassbox-design]

pjf, good thread...stirring the pot

i just read a thread over in z-land and it made me think of an algae based reef i had set up.

it utilized an ETSS skimmer and as the algae became established, skimmate decreased and yellowing of the water increased. the only way i was able to remove the gelbstoff was with carbon....from what i understand ozone will also work, but i have never used it personally.

before the ETSS, i had a venturi and NW on the system...i dont believe they put a dent in the yellowing either.

[honda2sk]

Originally posted by hahnmeister


According to Escobal, it takes upward of 2 minutes for some proteins to attach properly to a bubble after initial attraction.

Key word is "some". Correct interpretation is "most" proteins attach immediately. Why I feel a shorter skimmer works more efficiently.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by kodyboy
schuran makes skimmers that can skim freshwater so maybe you should look into those

are you suggesting a freshwater skimmer be used on a reef tank?