Live Sand Shelf Life in Question

ManotheSea · 02/05/2008, 10:09 PM

This may catch me some slack from others but I will explain.

I guess I am biased with a strong opposition to live sand that sits on a store shelf for several months. I dont have any hard statistical facts to support my bias but I can apply my best common sense.

My feeling is that store shelf bagged live sand is a bad product that doesnt live up to what it proposes to be. It causes a lot of Reefers months of head ache and unnecessary problems with over blown algae. I think it jump starts a cycle but does not help the cycle to end sooner. It seems that it starts the cycle by adding a lot of dead organic stuff into the tank. You could do the same with a bag of rotten shrimp from the supermarket dumped into your new tank if you wanted to. Mix some play ground sand with the dead bag of shrimp and I bet you will have the same effect as bagged live sand. Ammonia, Nitrites ending in high Nitrates that cause series after series of algae blooms.

I have yet to see anything alive in shelved bagged sand. What I have seen is many many people suffering through long bouts of intense algae explosions after using it. I think that is where the idea comes from that a tank needs to be 6 mos to a year old before it stabilizes. There is no needed to suffer so long when using other sand.

Lets apply some easy logic. How can anything live in a bag on a shelf for several months? It cant. Its a bag of organic rot. How do they keep the bag from stinking to heck when you open it? Is a preservative used? If I bag some live sand and leave it sit for two weeks I bet it will knock you to the ground when you open it and smell the dead stench. Do they have a magic bag of sand or is there more than meets the eye here?

If you use fresh sand to fill or seed a new tank you wont get a cycle and you wont have algae blooms like those brought on by bagged sand. There are many small online stores that do their own collecting from FL reefs. They used to only supply the nations wholesalers. Now they can also sell to the public due to the internet. Their live sand will be as fresh as the day they took it from the ocean when you put it in your tank. You will also see life forms against the glass within a few weeks with fresh sand. You wont see that with bagged sand. Use a friends donation of sand to seed your dry sand and it will work as well.

I have seen SPS added on the second day to a new tank set up with seeded dry sand. The seeded bacteria laden sand needs time to spread and take hold so fish were slowly added after a week or two. No cycle SPS tank.

I dont know why this easy common sense method is not offered more often to new Reefers. Maybe we feel that its a right of passage that must be attained by all since most of us had to endure the suffering of horrible algae outbreaks it in our pasts. More likely its something that we endure then put behind us with little more than a passing thought while we focus on the next challange that confronts us in attaining our dream tanks.

I think store shelf bagged live sand should go the route of bio balls. I may get knocked down or gently pursuaded from these ideas in the face of more facts but this is where I stand right now. Fresh live sand or seeded dry sand is the only way to go.

Has anyone done any comparible testing on this subject?

.

JNye · 02/05/2008, 10:15 PM

i think carib sea ran some intriging tests and found live sand to be the very best and only way to start a tank.

ManotheSea · 02/10/2008, 09:18 AM

That is convenient that Caribseas testing revealed their product to be "the only way to start a tank." Imagine that. I am intrigued for sure.

Are they saying that their product is the only way or that live sand in general is the best?

JNye · 02/10/2008, 10:30 AM

i was being sarcastic, its prolly true tho, live sand is a crock. i dunno how long it lasts but i have bought some from petco once, it was expired so i told the guy to discount it and he did, so for me it was worth it. IMO just buy the sand grain size of your choice, then seed it with some local reefers sand, preferably 3 or more different live sands.

TammyLiz · 02/10/2008, 10:34 AM

I'm tagging this thread as I have a BB tank that I am planning on adding sand to very soon. I was planning on picking up a bag of live sand from the store since I was under the impression that it is clean and wouldn't cause any negative effect on my already mature system.

The very reason I removed the sand bed last summer was an incredible algae problem and a couple of corals that were not thriving as well as they could have, which I thought may have been partially due to the very old and very dirty sand. I don't want to go back to those same issues!

mfp4073 · 02/10/2008, 03:15 PM

has anyone ever put "livesand" under a microscope or tested the parameters of the water that comes out of the bag with it?

ManotheSea · 02/26/2008, 10:40 PM

I am temped to buy a bag just for testing. A microscope would be great but I dont have one. How can a bag of live stuff survive on a shelf for months? If it dies then the bag should be full of Nitrates when you get it. That is what I think causes the algae blooms during the old style tank cycling. If there is no Nitrate, how could that be besides the use of preservatives? Once the preservative is diluted in your tank then the dead organisms are able to rot and produce the high nitrate level.

Does anyone have a microscope? Is anyone planning on buying the bagged LS who would offer to run a nitrate test on the water in a bag of this sand?

mfp4073 · 02/26/2008, 11:57 PM

I wonder if we could talk marcye into using her super duper fancy shmancy equipment.

phurst · 02/27/2008, 12:09 AM

I know plenty of people who have used bagged live sand with no apparent issues, but I'm with you on this one. I will not use it, simply because I have serious doubts about how "live" it could possibly be after days/weeks/months sealed in a plastic bag. I used to run carbon in a canister filter, and if I turned it off and let it sit for a day or two before I cleaned it, sulfur city. That's what I'm imagining going on inside those bags.

lancer99 · 02/27/2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManotheSea

If you use fresh sand to fill or seed a new tank you wont get a cycle and you wont have algae blooms like those brought on by bagged sand.

While I agree that bagged so-called "live" sand is a gimmick, I think it's simplistic to blame algae blooms on it. There are too many other factors, e.g. use of cycled or non-cycled LR, ratio of LR to dead (or base) rock, etc.

Quote:

Originally posted by ManotheSea

I have seen SPS added on the second day to a new tank set up with seeded dry sand. The seeded bacteria laden sand needs time to spread and take hold so fish were slowly added after a week or two. No cycle SPS tank.

IMO this is a terrible idea. Any newly-set up tank, even if it is set up with aged LR, sand, and water, is going to go through all kinds of chemical & biological changes. Why subject SPS (or any other animal) to all that stress?

-R

02/05/2008, 10:09 PM	#1
ManotheSea Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: FL Posts: 414	Live Sand Shelf Life in Question This may catch me some slack from others but I will explain. I guess I am biased with a strong opposition to live sand that sits on a store shelf for several months. I dont have any hard statistical facts to support my bias but I can apply my best common sense. My feeling is that store shelf bagged live sand is a bad product that doesnt live up to what it proposes to be. It causes a lot of Reefers months of head ache and unnecessary problems with over blown algae. I think it jump starts a cycle but does not help the cycle to end sooner. It seems that it starts the cycle by adding a lot of dead organic stuff into the tank. You could do the same with a bag of rotten shrimp from the supermarket dumped into your new tank if you wanted to. Mix some play ground sand with the dead bag of shrimp and I bet you will have the same effect as bagged live sand. Ammonia, Nitrites ending in high Nitrates that cause series after series of algae blooms. I have yet to see anything alive in shelved bagged sand. What I have seen is many many people suffering through long bouts of intense algae explosions after using it. I think that is where the idea comes from that a tank needs to be 6 mos to a year old before it stabilizes. There is no needed to suffer so long when using other sand. Lets apply some easy logic. How can anything live in a bag on a shelf for several months? It cant. Its a bag of organic rot. How do they keep the bag from stinking to heck when you open it? Is a preservative used? If I bag some live sand and leave it sit for two weeks I bet it will knock you to the ground when you open it and smell the dead stench. Do they have a magic bag of sand or is there more than meets the eye here? If you use fresh sand to fill or seed a new tank you wont get a cycle and you wont have algae blooms like those brought on by bagged sand. There are many small online stores that do their own collecting from FL reefs. They used to only supply the nations wholesalers. Now they can also sell to the public due to the internet. Their live sand will be as fresh as the day they took it from the ocean when you put it in your tank. You will also see life forms against the glass within a few weeks with fresh sand. You wont see that with bagged sand. Use a friends donation of sand to seed your dry sand and it will work as well. I have seen SPS added on the second day to a new tank set up with seeded dry sand. The seeded bacteria laden sand needs time to spread and take hold so fish were slowly added after a week or two. No cycle SPS tank. I dont know why this easy common sense method is not offered more often to new Reefers. Maybe we feel that its a right of passage that must be attained by all since most of us had to endure the suffering of horrible algae outbreaks it in our pasts. More likely its something that we endure then put behind us with little more than a passing thought while we focus on the next challange that confronts us in attaining our dream tanks. I think store shelf bagged live sand should go the route of bio balls. I may get knocked down or gently pursuaded from these ideas in the face of more facts but this is where I stand right now. Fresh live sand or seeded dry sand is the only way to go. Has anyone done any comparible testing on this subject? .

02/05/2008, 10:15 PM	#2
JNye Moved On Up Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lansing, IL Posts: 2,230	i think carib sea ran some intriging tests and found live sand to be the very best and only way to start a tank. __________________ Joe Current Tank Info: it don't matter just don't bite it

02/10/2008, 10:30 AM	#4
JNye Moved On Up Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lansing, IL Posts: 2,230	i was being sarcastic, its prolly true tho, live sand is a crock. i dunno how long it lasts but i have bought some from petco once, it was expired so i told the guy to discount it and he did, so for me it was worth it. IMO just buy the sand grain size of your choice, then seed it with some local reefers sand, preferably 3 or more different live sands. __________________ Joe Current Tank Info: it don't matter just don't bite it

02/10/2008, 03:15 PM	#6
mfp4073 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 1,506	has anyone ever put "livesand" under a microscope or tested the parameters of the water that comes out of the bag with it? __________________ Bristle worms are evil and need to be eradicated, at night they creep out of the tank and charge internet porn to your credit cards....ask me how I know. Anyone else notice that anthelia smells like fresh cut water chestnuts? ....they call me chad Current Tank Info: 1 crashed 75 gal..it was really beautiful while it lasted.

02/26/2008, 11:57 PM	#8
mfp4073 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 1,506	I wonder if we could talk marcye into using her super duper fancy shmancy equipment. __________________ Bristle worms are evil and need to be eradicated, at night they creep out of the tank and charge internet porn to your credit cards....ask me how I know. Anyone else notice that anthelia smells like fresh cut water chestnuts? ....they call me chad Current Tank Info: 1 crashed 75 gal..it was really beautiful while it lasted.

02/10/2008, 09:18 AM	#3
ManotheSea Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: FL Posts: 414	That is convenient that Caribseas testing revealed their product to be "the only way to start a tank." Imagine that. I am intrigued for sure. Are they saying that their product is the only way or that live sand in general is the best?

02/10/2008, 10:34 AM	#5
TammyLiz Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fredericksburg, Va Posts: 903	I'm tagging this thread as I have a BB tank that I am planning on adding sand to very soon. I was planning on picking up a bag of live sand from the store since I was under the impression that it is clean and wouldn't cause any negative effect on my already mature system. The very reason I removed the sand bed last summer was an incredible algae problem and a couple of corals that were not thriving as well as they could have, which I thought may have been partially due to the very old and very dirty sand. I don't want to go back to those same issues!

02/26/2008, 10:40 PM	#7
ManotheSea Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: FL Posts: 414	I am temped to buy a bag just for testing. A microscope would be great but I dont have one. How can a bag of live stuff survive on a shelf for months? If it dies then the bag should be full of Nitrates when you get it. That is what I think causes the algae blooms during the old style tank cycling. If there is no Nitrate, how could that be besides the use of preservatives? Once the preservative is diluted in your tank then the dead organisms are able to rot and produce the high nitrate level. Does anyone have a microscope? Is anyone planning on buying the bagged LS who would offer to run a nitrate test on the water in a bag of this sand?

02/27/2008, 12:09 AM	#9
phurst Richmond Reefer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 5,837	I know plenty of people who have used bagged live sand with no apparent issues, but I'm with you on this one. I will not use it, simply because I have serious doubts about how "live" it could possibly be after days/weeks/months sealed in a plastic bag. I used to run carbon in a canister filter, and if I turned it off and let it sit for a day or two before I cleaned it, sulfur city. That's what I'm imagining going on inside those bags. __________________ _______ Pearson _______ Current Tank Info: Various tanks of various sizes with various gear.