Rocks keep falling

stumpy08 · 03/19/2008, 08:42 PM

Everytime I get my rocks stacked just like I want them they will come tumbleing down in a few days. All of my rocks are roundish but they do have flat places on them. Thankfully no fish or coral has been harmed yet!
How do I keep them exactly stacked where I want them?

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 08:46 PM

You need the base pieces on the glass bottom and then build up from there.Whene you have them in place then epoxy the larger pieces and gel super glue the smaller pieces.For large pieces you could drill a 1/4 hole in the two pieces that meet and use 1/4 pvc tube to hold them together. But this wont be the last time you rearrange your rockwork.As you learn and expand you will move them for better use or just a differant look.
How many turbos do you have?

stumpy08 · 03/19/2008, 09:38 PM

I see no problems moving some sand to get to the bare glass. (shouldn't build houses on shifting sand). Will the epoxy and super glue set properly in the salt water? Is it a special type of glue?
I have 3 turbos and yes they have knocked the small rocks (with coral frags attached) from the very top all the way down to the bottom. I'm sure this is a little stressful on the coral.
One other thing, my youngest daughter swears she wasn't running past the aquarium. Yea, right!

briangg57 · 03/19/2008, 09:46 PM

I have good luck with aquamend putty from home depot. But if you use it, don't forget to turn your skimmer way down for about an hour because it will go crazy. I've use this stuff alot and if I do want to re-arange apiece,I can separate it with a little force. And don't worry about the white color, It will cover with coraline in notime.

TikiDan · 03/19/2008, 09:50 PM

I drilled 1/2 inch holes and used a fiberglass rods to skewer them so they don't fall

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 09:59 PM

Theres alot of safe epoxy to use and GEL super glue is safe and both cure under water. You also want to glue the coral down. If the coral is fleshy then epoxy could kill them as it heats up as it cures. I would epoxy 3 or 4 target spots and in time coralline will grow over it and you wont know its there.

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:00 PM

Sorry but as i dont see any powerheads in the pic do you have any?

Quote:

Originally posted by TikiDan
I drilled 1/2 inch holes and used a fiberglass rods to skewer them so they don't fall

TikiDan · 03/19/2008, 10:01 PM

its still dry

Still in the build phase!

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:03 PM

Looks built to me and with no water flow it may get stagnet and allow algea to get outta control.As soon as the tank has water you awnt flow.

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:06 PM

With LR and LS and saltwater you have a living system with lots of life that you cant see and needs care.

TikiDan · 03/19/2008, 10:11 PM

I am well aware of the needs. I have been doing this for a little bit

I am also building a closed loop with an oceans motions. And I have my eye on a pair of controllable Tunzes so flow shouldn't be a problem.

here is the link to my build thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1344280

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:14 PM

If all your useing for flow is a wave maker then it will be.Wave makers are more for looks.They can be helpfull for an established tank with proper flow. You need good constant water movement in the whl tank and wavemakers cant do this. IM not sure where your getting your info but ill guess its a LFS that cares more about the sale then your tank.

TikiDan · 03/19/2008, 10:17 PM

how much flow do you think I need in a 120g?

livelycorpse · 03/19/2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by demonsp
Sorry but as i dont see any powerheads in the pic do you have any?

Doesn't look like there is any water in it to me... :P

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:19 PM

Heres a few links and if you goto the RC home page look on the bottom left for calculaters.This is only a base as there are many factors in place.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/ar...id=285&aid=243

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/view

TikiDan · 03/19/2008, 10:34 PM

with 2 Turbelle stream 6101's
A closed loop pushing 1200gph
and a return at 1200gph = total GPH of 8700

I have thought this out for a few months and with how open the rock work is I will be able to generate mass flow with little to no dead zones.

I don't understand your statements and how you came to the assumption that I don't know how to care for a reef.

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:42 PM

I didnt say you didnt know what your doing.You said the streams where on a wave maker so they cant count for flow.Then the return if really that high means the sump or fuge cant work right.Your return from the sump should be for the sumps health and loses flow rate the farther away from the source. That leave the closed loop that i didnt know you had.It also loses flow rate and double if theres more then one return nozzle. So without a pic of this setup or better info im not sure. As the original question was only i see no powerheads and you stated it was in the build and now its i have this and this so it all changed. Im only trying to help and am sorry if i came across wrong.I should use the funny faces more i guess

TikiDan · 03/19/2008, 10:45 PM

thanks for the clarifications

sorry if I got hostile. Tag along on my build

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 10:50 PM

The problem with flow is most set it up and leave it as is. Well with a new tank and low to no stock and low to no coral will show little to no ill effects from lower flow and after months or yrs you have nitrate or algea problems and the last thing you consider is flow. You need to keep a balance as you add more stock and LR fills up then its good to reconsider your flow for balance.A little extra flow can only help . I see many threads about this and they buy this or that and add this or that and still cant control whene more or better placement of powerheads could help more then any reactor.

Im just saying if you have this in the future remeber this thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by TikiDan
thanks for the clarifications

sorry if I got hostile. Tag along on my build

schigara · 03/19/2008, 10:56 PM

demon,

What exactly do you have against alternating flow? Do you equate everything that alternates flow with a surge device? I agree that a surge device is more for looks than any real useful purpose but any other type of device like, SeaSwirls, Oceans Motions or any electronic device that alternates power between poweheads is quite useful to eliminate a constant laminar flow.

I am always reading your posts where you say one should attain flow before trying to attempt something fancy like a "wavemaker". I agree a lot of flow is needed but one does not need to be an "expert" to achieve very good overall flow and alternating flow at the same time.

You automatically jumped the gun on TikiDan in this thread about not having any powerheads, when it's easy to see his tank is a build in progress without any water in the tank yet!

When you use the term wavemaker, what exactly are you referring to? Are you talking about surge devices, closed loop outlet oscillators, closed loop revolving flow directors or elctronic devices that turn powerheads on and off or electronic devices that manipulate the speeds of DC powerheads which ramps their speeds up and down?

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 11:09 PM

His pic showed no powerheads and he said he was still in the build stage then it went to i have this and this.

Whene i say wavemaker im thinking of 2 powerheads alternating on and off to creat a wave like motion. They can be a usefull tool in the right hands but alone provide no benifit to actuall water circulation.

Flow provides the water with oxygen by surface exchange and wavemakers cant do it effeciantly.
Then your LR and LS will help convert nitrate and ammonia into harmless nitrogen but not without a good steady current.
Then with wavemakers you will have uneatin food ,fish waste and other debris collecting on the bottom and in ,on and around the LR which will cause nitrates but this take stime like months to yrs and by then you never even think its from low flow.
Also proper flow will retard algea growth.

You need to learn the basics first and they included good water circulation and not alternating current.

schigara · 03/19/2008, 11:28 PM

After he said it was in the build stage, you said, "Looks built to me and with no water flow it may get stagnet and allow algea to get outta control.As soon as the tank has water you awnt flow." It was like you automatically assumed he was going to put water in and not add any powerheads or anything. Just a bit arrogant and condescending.

You can have a lot of flow in the mid to low level without disrupting the surface much(where gas exchange takes place).Alternating or non alternating powerheads does neither increase or decrease this exchange if neither disrupts the surface.

My main problem with all your rants about flow is that "wavemakers" are only useful for looks. From everything I have read on this topic for the past four years, the consensus is that alternating flow is better than laminar flow.

Are you saying direct laminar flow equaling 50x turnover rate is better than alternating flow equaling 50x turnover rate, so far as corals are concerned?

demonsp · 03/19/2008, 11:47 PM

I always get in trouble for this.The pic shows a filled tank with LR and substrate and nothing for flow. I was just trying to give some constructive critisisum. Saying that a tank with water and LR and sand should have water movement isnt arrogant just some helpfull info and only ment to help his progress. Anything other then that would be judgmental. If you get anything other then one reefer helping another then again im sorry. Any response givin in this SW forum would be for educating and informing.

drdoolittle · 03/19/2008, 11:55 PM

Looks to me that he hasnt owned any wavemaker device..

you should get your self Controllable Tunzes or Wavebox. or even better. Tunze on a WavySea. before you Make statemets such as"Wave makers are more for looks."

From the way your tank looks.. i dont think your in a very good position give any good advice..

schigara · 03/19/2008, 11:58 PM

I am all with you on informing and that's cool. This is supposed to be a fun hobby/obsession/money pit and I love it. My only beef was about the usefullness of alternating flow, which most would agree is a good thing.

I agree some newcomers might get caught up in the gadgets and fail to learn the basics but this does not mean all of these gadgets are useless. There are some useless ones out there, though!

03/19/2008, 08:42 PM	#1
stumpy08 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Malden, WV Posts: 92	Rocks keep falling Everytime I get my rocks stacked just like I want them they will come tumbleing down in a few days. All of my rocks are roundish but they do have flat places on them. Thankfully no fish or coral has been harmed yet! How do I keep them exactly stacked where I want them?

03/19/2008, 09:46 PM	#4
briangg57 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 634	I have good luck with aquamend putty from home depot. But if you use it, don't forget to turn your skimmer way down for about an hour because it will go crazy. I've use this stuff alot and if I do want to re-arange apiece,I can separate it with a little force. And don't worry about the white color, It will cover with coraline in notime. __________________ Ain't like goin down to the pond, cetching bluegills and tommy cats. Current Tank Info: 75 gal.,20 gal. sump with wet-dry, also run carbon,75 to 100lbs live rock. 3&1/2 inch sand bed, 390 Watts PC. lighting and loving it!!!

03/19/2008, 09:50 PM	#5
TikiDan Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 2,022	I drilled 1/2 inch holes and used a fiberglass rods to skewer them so they don't fall __________________ "We have two options in life, medically and emotionally, give up or fight like hell! " - Lance Armstrong Current Tank Info: formerly a 120 gallon Planted Sea horse Tank. Click the house for the thread.

03/19/2008, 10:01 PM	#8
TikiDan Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 2,022	its still dry Still in the build phase! __________________ "We have two options in life, medically and emotionally, give up or fight like hell! " - Lance Armstrong Current Tank Info: formerly a 120 gallon Planted Sea horse Tank. Click the house for the thread.

03/19/2008, 10:11 PM	#11
TikiDan Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 2,022	I am well aware of the needs. I have been doing this for a little bit I am also building a closed loop with an oceans motions. And I have my eye on a pair of controllable Tunzes so flow shouldn't be a problem. here is the link to my build thread. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1344280 __________________ "We have two options in life, medically and emotionally, give up or fight like hell! " - Lance Armstrong Current Tank Info: formerly a 120 gallon Planted Sea horse Tank. Click the house for the thread.

03/19/2008, 08:46 PM	#2
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	You need the base pieces on the glass bottom and then build up from there.Whene you have them in place then epoxy the larger pieces and gel super glue the smaller pieces.For large pieces you could drill a 1/4 hole in the two pieces that meet and use 1/4 pvc tube to hold them together. But this wont be the last time you rearrange your rockwork.As you learn and expand you will move them for better use or just a differant look. How many turbos do you have?

03/19/2008, 09:38 PM	#3
stumpy08 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Malden, WV Posts: 92	I see no problems moving some sand to get to the bare glass. (shouldn't build houses on shifting sand). Will the epoxy and super glue set properly in the salt water? Is it a special type of glue? I have 3 turbos and yes they have knocked the small rocks (with coral frags attached) from the very top all the way down to the bottom. I'm sure this is a little stressful on the coral. One other thing, my youngest daughter swears she wasn't running past the aquarium. Yea, right!

03/19/2008, 09:59 PM	#6
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	Theres alot of safe epoxy to use and GEL super glue is safe and both cure under water. You also want to glue the coral down. If the coral is fleshy then epoxy could kill them as it heats up as it cures. I would epoxy 3 or 4 target spots and in time coralline will grow over it and you wont know its there.

03/19/2008, 10:03 PM	#9
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	Looks built to me and with no water flow it may get stagnet and allow algea to get outta control.As soon as the tank has water you awnt flow.

03/19/2008, 10:06 PM	#10
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	With LR and LS and saltwater you have a living system with lots of life that you cant see and needs care.

03/19/2008, 10:14 PM	#12
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	If all your useing for flow is a wave maker then it will be.Wave makers are more for looks.They can be helpfull for an established tank with proper flow. You need good constant water movement in the whl tank and wavemakers cant do this. IM not sure where your getting your info but ill guess its a LFS that cares more about the sale then your tank.

03/19/2008, 10:17 PM	#13
TikiDan Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 2,022	how much flow do you think I need in a 120g? __________________ "We have two options in life, medically and emotionally, give up or fight like hell! " - Lance Armstrong Current Tank Info: formerly a 120 gallon Planted Sea horse Tank. Click the house for the thread.

03/19/2008, 10:19 PM	#15
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	Heres a few links and if you goto the RC home page look on the bottom left for calculaters.This is only a base as there are many factors in place. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/ar...id=285&aid=243 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/view

03/19/2008, 10:34 PM	#16
TikiDan Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 2,022	with 2 Turbelle stream 6101's A closed loop pushing 1200gph and a return at 1200gph = total GPH of 8700 I have thought this out for a few months and with how open the rock work is I will be able to generate mass flow with little to no dead zones. I don't understand your statements and how you came to the assumption that I don't know how to care for a reef. __________________ "We have two options in life, medically and emotionally, give up or fight like hell! " - Lance Armstrong Current Tank Info: formerly a 120 gallon Planted Sea horse Tank. Click the house for the thread.

03/19/2008, 10:42 PM	#17
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	I didnt say you didnt know what your doing.You said the streams where on a wave maker so they cant count for flow.Then the return if really that high means the sump or fuge cant work right.Your return from the sump should be for the sumps health and loses flow rate the farther away from the source. That leave the closed loop that i didnt know you had.It also loses flow rate and double if theres more then one return nozzle. So without a pic of this setup or better info im not sure. As the original question was only i see no powerheads and you stated it was in the build and now its i have this and this so it all changed. Im only trying to help and am sorry if i came across wrong.I should use the funny faces more i guess

03/19/2008, 10:45 PM	#18
TikiDan Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 2,022	thanks for the clarifications sorry if I got hostile. Tag along on my build __________________ "We have two options in life, medically and emotionally, give up or fight like hell! " - Lance Armstrong Current Tank Info: formerly a 120 gallon Planted Sea horse Tank. Click the house for the thread.

03/19/2008, 10:56 PM	#20
schigara Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Memphis, Tn Posts: 525	demon, What exactly do you have against alternating flow? Do you equate everything that alternates flow with a surge device? I agree that a surge device is more for looks than any real useful purpose but any other type of device like, SeaSwirls, Oceans Motions or any electronic device that alternates power between poweheads is quite useful to eliminate a constant laminar flow. I am always reading your posts where you say one should attain flow before trying to attempt something fancy like a "wavemaker". I agree a lot of flow is needed but one does not need to be an "expert" to achieve very good overall flow and alternating flow at the same time. You automatically jumped the gun on TikiDan in this thread about not having any powerheads, when it's easy to see his tank is a build in progress without any water in the tank yet! When you use the term wavemaker, what exactly are you referring to? Are you talking about surge devices, closed loop outlet oscillators, closed loop revolving flow directors or elctronic devices that turn powerheads on and off or electronic devices that manipulate the speeds of DC powerheads which ramps their speeds up and down?

03/19/2008, 11:09 PM	#21
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	His pic showed no powerheads and he said he was still in the build stage then it went to i have this and this. Whene i say wavemaker im thinking of 2 powerheads alternating on and off to creat a wave like motion. They can be a usefull tool in the right hands but alone provide no benifit to actuall water circulation. Flow provides the water with oxygen by surface exchange and wavemakers cant do it effeciantly. Then your LR and LS will help convert nitrate and ammonia into harmless nitrogen but not without a good steady current. Then with wavemakers you will have uneatin food ,fish waste and other debris collecting on the bottom and in ,on and around the LR which will cause nitrates but this take stime like months to yrs and by then you never even think its from low flow. Also proper flow will retard algea growth. You need to learn the basics first and they included good water circulation and not alternating current.

03/19/2008, 11:28 PM	#22
schigara Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Memphis, Tn Posts: 525	After he said it was in the build stage, you said, "Looks built to me and with no water flow it may get stagnet and allow algea to get outta control.As soon as the tank has water you awnt flow." It was like you automatically assumed he was going to put water in and not add any powerheads or anything. Just a bit arrogant and condescending. You can have a lot of flow in the mid to low level without disrupting the surface much(where gas exchange takes place).Alternating or non alternating powerheads does neither increase or decrease this exchange if neither disrupts the surface. My main problem with all your rants about flow is that "wavemakers" are only useful for looks. From everything I have read on this topic for the past four years, the consensus is that alternating flow is better than laminar flow. Are you saying direct laminar flow equaling 50x turnover rate is better than alternating flow equaling 50x turnover rate, so far as corals are concerned? Last edited by schigara; 03/19/2008 at 11:49 PM.

03/19/2008, 11:47 PM	#23
demonsp Moved On Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: el paso tx Posts: 7,634	I always get in trouble for this.The pic shows a filled tank with LR and substrate and nothing for flow. I was just trying to give some constructive critisisum. Saying that a tank with water and LR and sand should have water movement isnt arrogant just some helpfull info and only ment to help his progress. Anything other then that would be judgmental. If you get anything other then one reefer helping another then again im sorry. Any response givin in this SW forum would be for educating and informing.

03/19/2008, 11:55 PM	#24
drdoolittle Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tracy, California Posts: 1,921	Looks to me that he hasnt owned any wavemaker device.. you should get your self Controllable Tunzes or Wavebox. or even better. Tunze on a WavySea. before you Make statemets such as"Wave makers are more for looks." From the way your tank looks.. i dont think your in a very good position give any good advice..

03/19/2008, 11:58 PM	#25
schigara Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Memphis, Tn Posts: 525	I am all with you on informing and that's cool. This is supposed to be a fun hobby/obsession/money pit and I love it. My only beef was about the usefullness of alternating flow, which most would agree is a good thing. I agree some newcomers might get caught up in the gadgets and fail to learn the basics but this does not mean all of these gadgets are useless. There are some useless ones out there, though!