Emperor Angel - Large Bulge on Stomach

NexDog · 03/14/2008, 05:36 AM

A few weeks ago I saw a small bulge appear on the side of my Emperor Angelfish. Over the past few days he seems a bit un-cooordinated. As in sometimes swimming on his side. The bulge in his stomach is larger now and seems slightly larger on one side than the other. I've heard of swim bladder issues but don't know if this is that and even if it is I don't know how to treat it.

Had him for two years - from juvie to adult and if he dies I think that will be the final straw.

NexDog · 03/14/2008, 05:53 AM

I found an article here:

http://www.angelsplus.com/faqhealth.htm

Quote:

Angel fish that are very bloated, likely have a type of internal bacterial infection that has affected the kidneys. Angel fish exhibiting this symptom are usually too far gone to be saved. If you catch this type of angel fish disease early when the fish is still eating, then a medicated food with an antibiotic in it may work.

Can someone recommend medicated food?

melev · 03/22/2008, 02:02 AM

I contacted a friend of mine with a link to this thread. Hopefully he'll know of something you can use to help your fish back to health.

TealCobra · 03/22/2008, 07:38 AM

Hey Marc!

That really sounds terrible. I would recommend some anti-bacterial, medicated fish food by Jungle Laboratories. You may need to call around to some of your LFS's to see if they keep it in stock. I think it goes by the name Gel-Tek possibly. Is this fish in a hospital tank (HT) or still in the display?

kevin2000 · 03/22/2008, 08:10 AM

Seachem makes a product called focus which is designed for internal infections - its an antibiotic (nitrofurantoin) binding agent designed to be used with food.

http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/Focus.html

Hope this helps.

NexDog · 03/22/2008, 09:01 AM

Excellent, thanks so much. Do you happen to know of any online retailer that stocks Focus or Gel-Tek? I will need to ship it to Japan asap because time is critical now.

Fish is in the main display but I'm sure I can remove him to QT if necessary.

TealCobra · 03/22/2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NexDog
Excellent, thanks so much. Do you happen to know of any online retailer that stocks Focus or Gel-Tek? I will need to ship it to Japan asap because time is critical now.

Fish is in the main display but I'm sure I can remove him to QT if necessary.

www.marinedepot.com

kevin2000 · 03/22/2008, 09:09 AM

Not sure what antibiotics are available in Japan but in a pinch you can crush/disolve antibiotics in water and soak your food in that solution ... may help until your Focus arrives.

NexDog · 03/22/2008, 11:03 AM

Found Focus on MarineDepot, thanks Matt. Will do an order tomorrow and hopefully will get it towards ends of next week. Just hope the fish can hold on. Just now noticing that PimaFix treats internal bacterial infections, should I get some of that too or is it best to stick to one treatment only?

Kevin, very limited to what I can understand medicine-wise here in Japan so I guess I'll have to wait for the order from MarineDepot.

Percula9 · 03/22/2008, 07:02 PM

You don't need to put the antibiotics in the food for the fish to get into their bodies. Once the medicant is in the water the fish have to drink. Therefore as the fish drink they take the antibiotics into their bodies. So consumption of food with the medicant in it is not necessary. Always treat in a quarantine tank.

TealCobra · 03/23/2008, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Percula9
You don't need to put the antibiotics in the food for the fish to get into their bodies. Once the medicant is in the water the fish have to drink. Therefore as the fish drink they take the antibiotics into their bodies. So consumption of food with the medicant in it is not necessary. Always treat in a quarantine tank.

True, but if the level of infection is advanced they are likely to receive a more concentrated dose of the medication if they ingest it directly.

JHemdal · 03/23/2008, 06:24 AM

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has forwarded the idea of mechanical failure of the fish's body wall opposite of the air bladder. The one-sided bulge makes me think of that as a possibility. To tell you the truth, this is kind of a newish idea for me, I heard of a couple of cases and then heard of some more here recently on RC. A picture would really help....especially since NexDog described the bulge as being in the stomach - which would rule out the airbladder all together!

TealCobra and Percula9,
You're both kind of correct, but both kind of wrong. It is all a problem of dosage. Nobody really knows how much water marine fish drink, therefore it isn't possible to create a proper oral dose by just treating the water and hoping the fish will drink enough of it. Baths work for external infections only, and remember that fish don't drink much at all during hyposalinity. The variables are tremendous; temperature, salinity, stability of the antibiotic in solution, etc.
Adding the antibiotics to the food is NOT to concentrate the medication (which actually could be toxic), it is to get the CORRECT dosage. All antibiotics have a dosage range usually expressed in mg of antibiotic per kg of fish. You need to hit that range (with some degree of flexability) or you risk either not killing the bacteria or killing the fish. Injectables are also dosed as mg per kg.
Antibiotics in food can work in some cases because you can calculate an estimated food amount eaten by a fish as 1 or 2% of its body weight per day, and then feed that amount, with enough antibiotics added to reach the required mg per kg dose.
All else is just a shotgun approach, and rarely worth the effort (or risk). Some bacterial diseases are self-limiting, so the fish gets sick, you do your thing and it gets better - but it was going to recover anyway(grin).
Bottom line: if you do not use the weight of the fish at some point in your antibiotic calculations, you simply are not dosing it properly.

JHemdal

NexDog · 03/23/2008, 07:21 AM

I think I'll remove the fish to the 50g QT when I get the medicine and then I'll just power feed him 5 times a days. I guess the bulge is not really on the stomach. It's almost in the center of the fish if not slightly towards the head from the center. Also the bulge is on both sides now. It was more pronounced on one side but has even out now. And teh fact that it isn't swimming so agile definitely points it to teh swim bladder.

I just hope I get the medicine in time. I ordered PimaFix as well. I hoped MD could get a rush on it and send Saturdsay as I ordered midday but doesn't look like it was sent. Even if the medicine works and the fish recovers there is the possibility of permanent damage to the swim bladder.

melev · 03/23/2008, 10:56 AM

Any chance this fish is pregnant with eggs?

Percula9 · 03/23/2008, 02:34 PM

I have treated fish a number of times with antibiotics. Most of the time the fish always got better without the fish directly consuming the medication. If you treat the fish in a relatively small volume of water, the fish will drink enough to get a theraputic dosage into its body. While I agree if the fish can directly consume the medicant, you won't have to use such a high dosage by treating the water.

NexDog · 03/23/2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Any chance this fish is pregnant with eggs?

If it is that would be an interesting Pomacanthus/ Chaetodontoplus hybrid.

melev · 03/23/2008, 08:01 PM

The reason I asked is because my female mandarin gets fat from time to time, even though there is no male to fertilize any eggs.

03/14/2008, 05:36 AM	#1
NexDog Snail Killer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kyushu, Japan Posts: 4,804	Emperor Angel - Large Bulge on Stomach A few weeks ago I saw a small bulge appear on the side of my Emperor Angelfish. Over the past few days he seems a bit un-cooordinated. As in sometimes swimming on his side. The bulge in his stomach is larger now and seems slightly larger on one side than the other. I've heard of swim bladder issues but don't know if this is that and even if it is I don't know how to treat it. Had him for two years - from juvie to adult and if he dies I think that will be the final straw. __________________ Laurence Flynn 340g In-Wall Envision Tank and 150g Sump. Current Tank Info: Deltec 902, PFO hood with 3x400w Radium 20k and 4x96w PC's. Hammerhead closed loop - and 2 x Tunze 6105 (and Vortech still sucks).

03/22/2008, 07:38 AM	#4
TealCobra Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 896	Hey Marc! That really sounds terrible. I would recommend some anti-bacterial, medicated fish food by Jungle Laboratories. You may need to call around to some of your LFS's to see if they keep it in stock. I think it goes by the name Gel-Tek possibly. Is this fish in a hospital tank (HT) or still in the display? __________________ Matt Current Tank Info: 300g Marineland DD Reef Tank

03/22/2008, 09:01 AM	#6
NexDog Snail Killer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kyushu, Japan Posts: 4,804	Excellent, thanks so much. Do you happen to know of any online retailer that stocks Focus or Gel-Tek? I will need to ship it to Japan asap because time is critical now. Fish is in the main display but I'm sure I can remove him to QT if necessary. __________________ Laurence Flynn 340g In-Wall Envision Tank and 150g Sump. Current Tank Info: Deltec 902, PFO hood with 3x400w Radium 20k and 4x96w PC's. Hammerhead closed loop - and 2 x Tunze 6105 (and Vortech still sucks).

03/22/2008, 11:03 AM	#9
NexDog Snail Killer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kyushu, Japan Posts: 4,804	Found Focus on MarineDepot, thanks Matt. Will do an order tomorrow and hopefully will get it towards ends of next week. Just hope the fish can hold on. Just now noticing that PimaFix treats internal bacterial infections, should I get some of that too or is it best to stick to one treatment only? Kevin, very limited to what I can understand medicine-wise here in Japan so I guess I'll have to wait for the order from MarineDepot. __________________ Laurence Flynn 340g In-Wall Envision Tank and 150g Sump. Current Tank Info: Deltec 902, PFO hood with 3x400w Radium 20k and 4x96w PC's. Hammerhead closed loop - and 2 x Tunze 6105 (and Vortech still sucks).

03/23/2008, 07:21 AM	#13
NexDog Snail Killer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kyushu, Japan Posts: 4,804	I think I'll remove the fish to the 50g QT when I get the medicine and then I'll just power feed him 5 times a days. I guess the bulge is not really on the stomach. It's almost in the center of the fish if not slightly towards the head from the center. Also the bulge is on both sides now. It was more pronounced on one side but has even out now. And teh fact that it isn't swimming so agile definitely points it to teh swim bladder. I just hope I get the medicine in time. I ordered PimaFix as well. I hoped MD could get a rush on it and send Saturdsay as I ordered midday but doesn't look like it was sent. Even if the medicine works and the fish recovers there is the possibility of permanent damage to the swim bladder. __________________ Laurence Flynn 340g In-Wall Envision Tank and 150g Sump. Current Tank Info: Deltec 902, PFO hood with 3x400w Radium 20k and 4x96w PC's. Hammerhead closed loop - and 2 x Tunze 6105 (and Vortech still sucks).

03/22/2008, 02:02 AM	#3
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I contacted a friend of mine with a link to this thread. Hopefully he'll know of something you can use to help your fish back to health.

03/22/2008, 08:10 AM	#5
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	Seachem makes a product called focus which is designed for internal infections - its an antibiotic (nitrofurantoin) binding agent designed to be used with food. http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/Focus.html Hope this helps.

03/22/2008, 09:09 AM	#8
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	Not sure what antibiotics are available in Japan but in a pinch you can crush/disolve antibiotics in water and soak your food in that solution ... may help until your Focus arrives.

03/22/2008, 07:02 PM	#10
Percula9 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 3,819	You don't need to put the antibiotics in the food for the fish to get into their bodies. Once the medicant is in the water the fish have to drink. Therefore as the fish drink they take the antibiotics into their bodies. So consumption of food with the medicant in it is not necessary. Always treat in a quarantine tank.

03/23/2008, 06:24 AM	#12
JHemdal Moved On Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,971	I'm kind of surprised that nobody has forwarded the idea of mechanical failure of the fish's body wall opposite of the air bladder. The one-sided bulge makes me think of that as a possibility. To tell you the truth, this is kind of a newish idea for me, I heard of a couple of cases and then heard of some more here recently on RC. A picture would really help....especially since NexDog described the bulge as being in the stomach - which would rule out the airbladder all together! TealCobra and Percula9, You're both kind of correct, but both kind of wrong. It is all a problem of dosage. Nobody really knows how much water marine fish drink, therefore it isn't possible to create a proper oral dose by just treating the water and hoping the fish will drink enough of it. Baths work for external infections only, and remember that fish don't drink much at all during hyposalinity. The variables are tremendous; temperature, salinity, stability of the antibiotic in solution, etc. Adding the antibiotics to the food is NOT to concentrate the medication (which actually could be toxic), it is to get the CORRECT dosage. All antibiotics have a dosage range usually expressed in mg of antibiotic per kg of fish. You need to hit that range (with some degree of flexability) or you risk either not killing the bacteria or killing the fish. Injectables are also dosed as mg per kg. Antibiotics in food can work in some cases because you can calculate an estimated food amount eaten by a fish as 1 or 2% of its body weight per day, and then feed that amount, with enough antibiotics added to reach the required mg per kg dose. All else is just a shotgun approach, and rarely worth the effort (or risk). Some bacterial diseases are self-limiting, so the fish gets sick, you do your thing and it gets better - but it was going to recover anyway(grin). Bottom line: if you do not use the weight of the fish at some point in your antibiotic calculations, you simply are not dosing it properly. JHemdal

03/23/2008, 10:56 AM	#14
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Any chance this fish is pregnant with eggs?

03/23/2008, 02:34 PM	#15
Percula9 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 3,819	I have treated fish a number of times with antibiotics. Most of the time the fish always got better without the fish directly consuming the medication. If you treat the fish in a relatively small volume of water, the fish will drink enough to get a theraputic dosage into its body. While I agree if the fish can directly consume the medicant, you won't have to use such a high dosage by treating the water.

03/23/2008, 08:01 PM	#17
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	The reason I asked is because my female mandarin gets fat from time to time, even though there is no male to fertilize any eggs.