Dinoflagellates

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 02:48 PM

ok I clearly have had this for about two weeks now. Its this brown stringy looking algae with traped air bubbles. Aparently this stuff is toxic to humans??? does this mean I shouldn't put my hands in the water??? this can't hurt me can it???

does anyone know the best way to get rid of this pest??? I would really like to do something about this??? my tank is covered in it?

taillonjohn · 04/21/2008, 03:18 PM

the tricks I know of are:
1) increase the flow
2) decrease the lighting (I cant do more than 8 hours or I get the same as you)
3) dont feed the tank so much

no, its not toxic and it wont hurt you

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 04:12 PM

here are some pix of this devil infestation

you can see it here on the rocks. Its like a brown stringy, snotty looking stuff. you can see that its even growing all over my snails

Now you can see how its stringing around anf growing over my corals. My pulsating xenia which was as happy as flies on $hit before is now all closed up and my finger leather hasn't opened in a week.

folks this is an emergency I leave for my honeymoon in 10 days so I need to get a move on

cloak · 04/21/2008, 04:30 PM

Here's a couple good articles.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 04:36 PM

I have read sooo many articles like the one above but none say how to really get rid of it. Like the PH method above doesn't make sense since it would only kill the other inhabitants in my tank. I have also read keeping your lights off for one week. Ya that may work but its sure as heck gonna kill my corals too or seriously **** them off LOL

cloak · 04/21/2008, 05:21 PM

What kind of water are you using? Sounds like there might be something in the water that this particuliar type of algae likes. If it's RO/DI, I have no clue. Overstocked? Old lights? Bad salt?

kevin2000 · 04/21/2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chago09
I have read sooo many articles like the one above but none say how to really get rid of it. Like the PH method above doesn't make sense since it would only kill the other inhabitants in my tank. I have also read keeping your lights off for one week. Ya that may work but its sure as heck gonna kill my corals too or seriously **** them off LOL

No offence but your assumptions are incorrect. Its common to run high PH combined with light deprivation to help kill dino's .. doesn't kill corals or anything else.

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 07:25 PM

ok well I just did about a 30 gallon waterchange from my 90 gallon tank. I basically raised some hell with a powerhead blowing all this crap in the air. In the meantime my python was pulling the crap out. I cleaned probably about 75% of it out. Some of it is still there. The weird thing about this stuff is that it looks like it dies each night when the lights are off. Then during the day comes to life. There was so much that I sucked out which looked grey and dead, while on top is the brown living crap. Anyways I did the waterchange. Put my skimmer to skim more wet.

Would it be unsafe to do a similar waterchange tomorrow again?? or should I wait a week before doing any more water changes??? of that size??

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cloak
What kind of water are you using? Sounds like there might be something in the water that this particuliar type of algae likes. If it's RO/DI, I have no clue. Overstocked? Old lights? Bad salt?

RO/DI, stocking is yellow tang, 2 ocelaris clowns, trio of lyretail anthias and a diamond watchman goby in a 90 gallon with 30 gallon sump and 110lbs of live rock. Salt is Instant Ocean. Old lights could be??? but still I don't think thats the main problem

seapug · 04/21/2008, 07:35 PM

Based on the absence of coralline algae it looks like that is either a very young tank or you have a lot of new rock in it that is still curing and causing some water quality issues. Have you done some basic tests for ph & alkalinity?

If those are in line then it's a nutrient issue-- Phosphate and nitrate are the usual culprits. What kind of source water are you using for topoffs and mixing new saltwater? Exhausted RO filters can cause that stuff to grow.

frank2926 · 04/21/2008, 07:37 PM

Do not blow the stuff around the tank. The only way to remove it is to syphon it OUT with small water changes. DO not run it thru a filter bag and return it to the tank. Do not do large water changes either.

This is the method that worked for me, and a few others.
Slowly take your alkalinity up to 15 DKH. then siphon out as much as possible doing as small a water change as possible and maintaining the alk at 15 DKH. Now go with NO lights for at least 2 days. On the 3rd day go with actinics only or as few bulbs as you can. for a few hours check for any remaining and siphon it out.
then go to another day of NO lights. Maintaining the 15 DKH.
Also during the light out period check the tank once a day with a flashlite and siphon out any that you see remaining. Keep an eye on your ph with the high alk try not to let the ph get above 8.5
after the 3 days of no lights return to a shortened light period. keeping the alkalinity high not necessarily 15 but at least 13 or 14
slowly over a 2 week period gradually return to your normal lighting
schedule.

seapug · 04/21/2008, 07:40 PM

the lighting trick can work, but if you don't address the nutrients that are the food it's using to grow when the lights are on it'll come back.

frank2926 · 04/21/2008, 07:46 PM

now that I looked again at your pics. It looks more like cynobacteria, than dinos. Dinos look like strings of algae standing up. the method I mentioned will rid them temporarily, but they will quickly return if you have high nutrients or phosphates. Phosphates are the usual suspects.

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 07:58 PM

frank and seapug thank you, thats the hel I need. Some warplans. I keep reading articles on what strains of bacteria make dino and bull crap like that but nothing on how to nuke this crap. Ok well I need to buy a new PH tester because my salifert is empty and all I have is a crappy hagen one lieing around from long time ago.

I'm gonna check the PH and phosphate tomorrow. My nitrate tests as undetectable on a salifert test kit. You guys say that usually nutrients is the issue. Well only way to export nutrients is through skimming correct??? well my skimmer is rated for a tank much bigger than mine even though its a crappier brand. Although I skim sort wet/dry LOL kinda in the middle and I get about half the collection cup full a day. So I am getting a lot of skimmate, so if I were to buy a better skimmer would this really help me at all???

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 08:00 PM

oh and yes the tank was set up on January the 2nd. So very young. Although I went through the usual diatom bloom and green algae bloom. How many of these damn blooms are there??? LOL

stingythingy45 · 04/21/2008, 08:06 PM

Yes,looks like cyano bacteria to me also.
Only have 50 lbs. of sand in a 90 gallon tank?
I have 100 lbs in a 55 gallon.
IME you need at least another 150 lbs. to make up any kind of a good natural filtration system.DSB does work and will help with nitrate export.

Chago09 · 04/21/2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stingythingy45
Yes,looks like cyano bacteria to me also.
Only have 50 lbs. of sand in a 90 gallon tank?
I have 100 lbs in a 55 gallon.
IME you need at least another 150 lbs. to make up any kind of a good natural filtration system.DSB does work and will help with nitrate export.

i thought DSB helps with denitrification and not nutrient export??? how does it deal with nutrient export since its in the bottom of the tank??? I thought only means of dealing with nutrients is waterchange and skimming???

If I wanted to add deeper sand bed, how can I do that??? can I simply just add sand to the display and let it move on its own over time??? I can't move all rock and coral to add sand that just out of the question

Hop · 04/21/2008, 08:19 PM

Looking at the pics, it looks more like cyno to me. The characteristic inverted snot bubbles with air are absent from the pics, but the signs of cyno are significant from what I can see.

But having dinos and winning I did the following:
1. No (yes thats right NO) waterchanges. there is something that fuels dinos with waterchanges and unfortunately I don't think anyone has found out what it is since I had them about 4 years ago.
2. reduce the lighting period
3. siphon as much out as possible after about 6 weeks of no waterchanges with small waterchanges.
4. Add kalk to try to maintain higher pH levels.

stingythingy45 · 04/21/2008, 08:29 PM

Well,I kind of did say nitrate export not nutrient and that is denitrification.With such a limited sand bed there's really not much life to clean up any left over food,detritus that can gather there.You also mention having a sand sifting goby I believe.Well,he's not going to be very happy and will most likely starve with just 50 lbs to sift through.Hopefully he takes prepared foods.See if you can get some "real" good live sand from a fellow reefer.
I would add another 100 lbs of sand.Add 50 lbs a week over the next few weeks if you want.Put in about 10-20 nassarius snails.a couple of conchs.Really get you CUC built up so that any food that happens to make it to the bottom is consumed right away.
Make sure that skimmer is pulling a good amount of skimmate.

seapug · 04/21/2008, 08:53 PM

Yeah, 4 months is still relatively young so you are going to have these strange "blooms" from time to time. My 90 gallon didn't really "settle in" until it was over a year old.

Make sure you are changing your RO/DI canisters on a regular basis. If you can set your skimmer to skim a bit on the "wet" side that can help too.

If you have a sump I'd highly recommend running a PhosBan reactor with GFO media. They are quite cheap & easy to set up in a sump and are very effective in keeping algae & cyano nutrients under control. I'll never set up another tank without one.

Chago09 · 04/22/2008, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seapug
Yeah, 4 months is still relatively young so you are going to have these strange "blooms" from time to time. My 90 gallon didn't really "settle in" until it was over a year old.

Make sure you are changing your RO/DI canisters on a regular basis. If you can set your skimmer to skim a bit on the "wet" side that can help too.

If you have a sump I'd highly recommend running a PhosBan reactor with GFO media. They are quite cheap & easy to set up in a sump and are very effective in keeping algae & cyano nutrients under control. I'll never set up another tank without one.

alright I'm gonna do that right away.

As to what the other guys said above. If I add sand wont it just pile up around the front and edges and not under all the rock work??? it will look really goofy won't it???

If I shouldn't be keeping a diamond watchman goby then what should I use to keep the sand bed from sitting there and getting nasty looking??? the watchman keeps it stirred so its always nice and white

frank2926 · 04/22/2008, 06:37 AM

you cant really do a good dsb without removing the rock first.

Chago09 · 04/22/2008, 06:39 AM

then I won't have one LOL sorry no way am I gonna remove all that rock LOL. My tank will crash and I won't do such a mess because my nitrate is 0 anyways with my SSB.

frank2926 · 04/22/2008, 07:05 AM

if nitrates are zero then you most likely have phosphate problem.
get some phosphat remover running preferably in a reactor .
lower your light schedule cut feedings down to once a week. start doing some small water changes.

Are you using an rodi unit? have you tested the water you are using with a tds meter?

an411 · 04/22/2008, 08:55 AM

Yeah I agree that looks like cyano the dinoflagellates that I am battling are a lot longer and they are a little thicker. and you can see air bubbles. I am working on getting rid of them the lights off 3 days seems to kill it a little I have to siphon as much out today as I can and hopefully they won't be coming back. If so I am going to stay on top of them till they are gone I have also increased my ph to 8.4 with the alk 2 part solution.

04/21/2008, 02:48 PM	#1
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	Dinoflagellates ok I clearly have had this for about two weeks now. Its this brown stringy looking algae with traped air bubbles. Aparently this stuff is toxic to humans??? does this mean I shouldn't put my hands in the water??? this can't hurt me can it??? does anyone know the best way to get rid of this pest??? I would really like to do something about this??? my tank is covered in it? __________________ Currently no tank!

04/21/2008, 03:18 PM	#2
taillonjohn Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 753	the tricks I know of are: 1) increase the flow 2) decrease the lighting (I cant do more than 8 hours or I get the same as you) 3) dont feed the tank so much no, its not toxic and it wont hurt you __________________ John

04/21/2008, 04:12 PM	#3
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	here are some pix of this devil infestation you can see it here on the rocks. Its like a brown stringy, snotty looking stuff. you can see that its even growing all over my snails Now you can see how its stringing around anf growing over my corals. My pulsating xenia which was as happy as flies on $hit before is now all closed up and my finger leather hasn't opened in a week. folks this is an emergency I leave for my honeymoon in 10 days so I need to get a move on __________________ Currently no tank!

04/21/2008, 04:36 PM	#5
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	I have read sooo many articles like the one above but none say how to really get rid of it. Like the PH method above doesn't make sense since it would only kill the other inhabitants in my tank. I have also read keeping your lights off for one week. Ya that may work but its sure as heck gonna kill my corals too or seriously **** them off LOL __________________ Currently no tank!

04/21/2008, 07:25 PM	#8
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	ok well I just did about a 30 gallon waterchange from my 90 gallon tank. I basically raised some hell with a powerhead blowing all this crap in the air. In the meantime my python was pulling the crap out. I cleaned probably about 75% of it out. Some of it is still there. The weird thing about this stuff is that it looks like it dies each night when the lights are off. Then during the day comes to life. There was so much that I sucked out which looked grey and dead, while on top is the brown living crap. Anyways I did the waterchange. Put my skimmer to skim more wet. Would it be unsafe to do a similar waterchange tomorrow again?? or should I wait a week before doing any more water changes??? of that size?? __________________ Currently no tank!

04/21/2008, 04:30 PM	#4
cloak Moved On Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 14,854	Here's a couple good articles. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/eb/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

04/21/2008, 05:21 PM	#6
cloak Moved On Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 14,854	What kind of water are you using? Sounds like there might be something in the water that this particuliar type of algae likes. If it's RO/DI, I have no clue. Overstocked? Old lights? Bad salt?

04/21/2008, 07:35 PM	#10
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	Based on the absence of coralline algae it looks like that is either a very young tank or you have a lot of new rock in it that is still curing and causing some water quality issues. Have you done some basic tests for ph & alkalinity? If those are in line then it's a nutrient issue-- Phosphate and nitrate are the usual culprits. What kind of source water are you using for topoffs and mixing new saltwater? Exhausted RO filters can cause that stuff to grow. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

04/21/2008, 07:37 PM	#11
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	Do not blow the stuff around the tank. The only way to remove it is to syphon it OUT with small water changes. DO not run it thru a filter bag and return it to the tank. Do not do large water changes either. This is the method that worked for me, and a few others. Slowly take your alkalinity up to 15 DKH. then siphon out as much as possible doing as small a water change as possible and maintaining the alk at 15 DKH. Now go with NO lights for at least 2 days. On the 3rd day go with actinics only or as few bulbs as you can. for a few hours check for any remaining and siphon it out. then go to another day of NO lights. Maintaining the 15 DKH. Also during the light out period check the tank once a day with a flashlite and siphon out any that you see remaining. Keep an eye on your ph with the high alk try not to let the ph get above 8.5 after the 3 days of no lights return to a shortened light period. keeping the alkalinity high not necessarily 15 but at least 13 or 14 slowly over a 2 week period gradually return to your normal lighting schedule.

04/21/2008, 07:40 PM	#12
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	the lighting trick can work, but if you don't address the nutrients that are the food it's using to grow when the lights are on it'll come back. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

04/21/2008, 07:46 PM	#13
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	now that I looked again at your pics. It looks more like cynobacteria, than dinos. Dinos look like strings of algae standing up. the method I mentioned will rid them temporarily, but they will quickly return if you have high nutrients or phosphates. Phosphates are the usual suspects.

04/21/2008, 07:58 PM	#14
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	frank and seapug thank you, thats the hel I need. Some warplans. I keep reading articles on what strains of bacteria make dino and bull crap like that but nothing on how to nuke this crap. Ok well I need to buy a new PH tester because my salifert is empty and all I have is a crappy hagen one lieing around from long time ago. I'm gonna check the PH and phosphate tomorrow. My nitrate tests as undetectable on a salifert test kit. You guys say that usually nutrients is the issue. Well only way to export nutrients is through skimming correct??? well my skimmer is rated for a tank much bigger than mine even though its a crappier brand. Although I skim sort wet/dry LOL kinda in the middle and I get about half the collection cup full a day. So I am getting a lot of skimmate, so if I were to buy a better skimmer would this really help me at all??? __________________ Currently no tank!

04/21/2008, 08:00 PM	#15
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	oh and yes the tank was set up on January the 2nd. So very young. Although I went through the usual diatom bloom and green algae bloom. How many of these damn blooms are there??? LOL __________________ Currently no tank!

04/21/2008, 08:06 PM	#16
stingythingy45 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: MA Posts: 3,296	Yes,looks like cyano bacteria to me also. Only have 50 lbs. of sand in a 90 gallon tank? I have 100 lbs in a 55 gallon. IME you need at least another 150 lbs. to make up any kind of a good natural filtration system.DSB does work and will help with nitrate export. __________________ Bob Current Tank Info: 90 gallon,mixed Reef,2-250 watt Optix 3 pendants(Phoenix 14K)2-54 watt T5 Super actnics ,ASM G-2 Gate/recirc mods,70 gal. basement sump,20L ref

04/21/2008, 08:19 PM	#18
Hop Carpe Noctem!!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 8,548	Looking at the pics, it looks more like cyno to me. The characteristic inverted snot bubbles with air are absent from the pics, but the signs of cyno are significant from what I can see. But having dinos and winning I did the following: 1. No (yes thats right NO) waterchanges. there is something that fuels dinos with waterchanges and unfortunately I don't think anyone has found out what it is since I had them about 4 years ago. 2. reduce the lighting period 3. siphon as much out as possible after about 6 weeks of no waterchanges with small waterchanges. 4. Add kalk to try to maintain higher pH levels. __________________ Hop Current Tank Info: 300-gallon in-wall system (mixed reef)

04/21/2008, 08:29 PM	#19
stingythingy45 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: MA Posts: 3,296	Well,I kind of did say nitrate export not nutrient and that is denitrification.With such a limited sand bed there's really not much life to clean up any left over food,detritus that can gather there.You also mention having a sand sifting goby I believe.Well,he's not going to be very happy and will most likely starve with just 50 lbs to sift through.Hopefully he takes prepared foods.See if you can get some "real" good live sand from a fellow reefer. I would add another 100 lbs of sand.Add 50 lbs a week over the next few weeks if you want.Put in about 10-20 nassarius snails.a couple of conchs.Really get you CUC built up so that any food that happens to make it to the bottom is consumed right away. Make sure that skimmer is pulling a good amount of skimmate. __________________ Bob Current Tank Info: 90 gallon,mixed Reef,2-250 watt Optix 3 pendants(Phoenix 14K)2-54 watt T5 Super actnics ,ASM G-2 Gate/recirc mods,70 gal. basement sump,20L ref

04/21/2008, 08:53 PM	#20
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	Yeah, 4 months is still relatively young so you are going to have these strange "blooms" from time to time. My 90 gallon didn't really "settle in" until it was over a year old. Make sure you are changing your RO/DI canisters on a regular basis. If you can set your skimmer to skim a bit on the "wet" side that can help too. If you have a sump I'd highly recommend running a PhosBan reactor with GFO media. They are quite cheap & easy to set up in a sump and are very effective in keeping algae & cyano nutrients under control. I'll never set up another tank without one. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

04/22/2008, 06:37 AM	#22
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	you cant really do a good dsb without removing the rock first.

04/22/2008, 06:39 AM	#23
Chago09 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Georgetown Posts: 1,132	then I won't have one LOL sorry no way am I gonna remove all that rock LOL. My tank will crash and I won't do such a mess because my nitrate is 0 anyways with my SSB. __________________ Currently no tank!

04/22/2008, 07:05 AM	#24
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	if nitrates are zero then you most likely have phosphate problem. get some phosphat remover running preferably in a reactor . lower your light schedule cut feedings down to once a week. start doing some small water changes. Are you using an rodi unit? have you tested the water you are using with a tds meter?

04/22/2008, 08:55 AM	#25
an411 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Derby CT Posts: 2,861	Yeah I agree that looks like cyano the dinoflagellates that I am battling are a lot longer and they are a little thicker. and you can see air bubbles. I am working on getting rid of them the lights off 3 days seems to kill it a little I have to siphon as much out today as I can and hopefully they won't be coming back. If so I am going to stay on top of them till they are gone I have also increased my ph to 8.4 with the alk 2 part solution.