decision/need help

[Airborne]

Heres the dilema:
I live in an Apartment on the third floor. This will be my first Salt tank. I have freshwater tanks. I was going to get a reef ready tank but start out with Fish and Live Rock first, until I got a handle on things. Space is limited. I have visited all local stores and read a Saltwater book. I was shocked to see what the start up costs were going to be. Anyway, at my LFS I have been directed back and forth. Heres what they are telling me:

1) Any aquarium that has built in filtration is inadequate. Such as the Uniaquarium, System II or any of the Nano's to include all of them.
2) The right way is a Wet/Dry and any other means such as canisters and or any other filtration is inadequate. These all in one units like the Tom R Pro Series Filtration is useless.
3) Here is the way they say to go. Buy the biggest tank you can afford or have space for. Then buy a light and then a wet/dry. Then a Protein Skimmer. Then a good pump. Then UV. Then a chiller. Then the cabinet or stand and canopy. Then your substate,rock,san,water...ect. By the time your all said and done you are looking at $2,500 for a 50-75 gallon set up.

Sound about right? I was thinking about spending less. That leaves me with the junk as they describe everything elese. They say that I will find that out quickly and buy everything again. They may be right but I a new so how am I suppose to know. Anyway that leaves me with the following:
1) Red Sea Max set up for $750
2) Nano cube 28 gallon HCI $450
3) Used 50 gallon tencor acrylic aquarium with a 5 gal sump $800
4) Just keep saving

Which way to go?

[epstein]

Opinions are like.........

well heres mine.......look on CraigsList......find a nice used 55 gal and stand.....Then come back here and find a nice HOB skimmer......go to your lfs......buy live rock ....and sand.......make some salt water.......let it cure......and while your waiting a few weeks.......Come back here Pick up a light fixture...and some other odds and ends......and Research ....Then Decide What type of tank do you want to have......That will determine what your purchases will be from start to finish....as soon your finished......start looking at Upgrading.....
Thats my opinion.......
Brian

[prime311]

I would go with Craigslist for the live rock too unless your LFS has some great prices Mine charges anywhere from $7-$12 / lb for Live Rock. As a point of reference I bought virtually everything for my tank used and I'm about $1800 in without including what I spent on fish. You also don't really need a UV and you could wait on the skimmer. You probably won't need a chiller either. The money spent on UV/Chiller/Skimmer just save you maintenance time.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Airborne
Heres the dilema:
I live in an Apartment on the third floor. This will be my first Salt tank. I have freshwater tanks. I was going to get a reef ready tank but start out with Fish and Live Rock first, until I got a handle on things. Space is limited. I have visited all local stores and read a Saltwater book. I was shocked to see what the start up costs were going to be. Anyway, at my LFS I have been directed back and forth. Heres what they are telling me:

1) Any aquarium that has built in filtration is inadequate. Such as the Uniaquarium, System II or any of the Nano's to include all of them.
2) The right way is a Wet/Dry and any other means such as canisters and or any other filtration is inadequate. These all in one units like the Tom R Pro Series Filtration is useless.
3) Here is the way they say to go. Buy the biggest tank you can afford or have space for. Then buy a light and then a wet/dry. Then a Protein Skimmer. Then a good pump. Then UV. Then a chiller. Then the cabinet or stand and canopy. Then your substate,rock,san,water...ect. By the time your all said and done you are looking at $2,500 for a 50-75 gallon set up.

Sound about right? I was thinking about spending less. That leaves me with the junk as they describe everything elese. They say that I will find that out quickly and buy everything again. They may be right but I a new so how am I suppose to know. Anyway that leaves me with the following:
1) Red Sea Max set up for $750
2) Nano cube 28 gallon HCI $450
3) Used 50 gallon tencor acrylic aquarium with a 5 gal sump $800
4) Just keep saving

Which way to go?

To Reef Central

Your system should consist of a tank that is preferrable drilled with an internal overflow--esp in an apartment--the chances of flooding are minimal then with external overflows

The tank should have 1.5 lbs of live rock per gallon and an argonite sand bed of 3 inches--these form the biological filtration for your system

You should have a sump--large enough so eventually you can use some of the space to set up a refugium

You should have a protein skimmer--- adequate live rock, sand bed and a good protein skimmer are all the filtration you need
You do not need a trickle filter

As for tank size---how much space to you have ---if you have 3 feet then go with 75 gal if you have 4 feet then the 90 gal or even the 120 is a good starting tank.

If that deal for 800 is just the tank, stand and sump it is not a good deal
You can find some excellent deals that include all the things I mention above on this site:

www.kijiji.com

[HumanIMDB]

We are on the 4th floor of our apartment building and space is limited here too.

The start-up costs are high, if you get the best you can afford to start. This does mean however that you will likely save money in the long run. When planning think "end goals" not short term. (i.e. if you eventually want to keep SPS/Clams, get the required light now and save the cost of upgrading it later.) Also, if you are willing to spend the time and effort, you can do some things yourself and save money that way.

LFS experiences vary, some don't know any better, some just want to sell you their product, and the rare ones are knowledgeable and helpful.

Let me answer your questions as best I can:
1) Filtration is accomplished by having Live Rock and Water Flow. General guidelines are 1.5-2 pounds of live rock per gallon of water and flow rate is 30-40 times the total gallons. So for a 90 gallon tank you would be looking at 135-180 pounds of rock (you can do 80% base rock and 20% live rock, it will just take longer to cycle) and 2700-3600 total GPH flow. A skimmer is highly recommended but in smaller tanks, you can get away without one as long as you keep up with water changes.
2) There is no "right way", however, the common practice now is to have a sump and refugium setup where you can put your equipment and have a safe place for pods to grow as well as macro algae for nutrient export.
3) Yes, buy as big of a tank as you can afford to purchase and operate; remember to think long term about feeding, maintenance, and utility costs. Like I said above, get the light that you will require for what you eventually want to keep. Skip the wet/dry. If you want to go the sump route, then do that. A protein skimmer should be purchased with the tank or sump. Skip the UV filter. You may not require a chiller and might be able to get away with a fan blowing across the surface of your water. Don't buy one until you know you need one. The cabinet/stand/canopy should be purchased with the tank unless you plan to build your own, but either way you will need that before you start up the system. A good estimate of total costs for a tank is about $50 per gallon.

The all-in-one systems are good, though I recommend you do your research before buying one to find out other people's experiences with them and any tips/tricks. Most all-in-one systems require some modifications to really tweak the system, but they are minor and are usually pretty cheap.

Here is a list of things you will need to start:
Tank
Stand
Light*
Protein Skimmer*
Powerheads* (looking for 30-40x flow rate)
Live Rock
Substrate (unless going bare bottom)
Test Kits (Salifert are the best)
Refractometer
Salt Mix
RO/DI Unit (unless you want to purchase RO or RO/DI water; okay for a small tank, but very costly especially when dealing with a large tank.)
Containers to mix salt water and store RO/DI water for top ups

* this could be included in the All-in-one but you might need to modify it or upgrade it, some all-in-one systems have upgrade options

If you are looking for used, you can find a better deal than the one you listed. Just make sure that Copper was never used in the system or you will have problems down the road and will likely end up scrapping the tank.

"Which way to go?" Is the best question here...the best answer, spend some time learning what it is you want to accomplish. Then make up a plan, do more research, ask more questions, revise the plan if needed, and THEN start buying equipment.

We spent over a year planning our new tank while learning by running a 10 gallon tank. We made more than a few mistakes but it was all good in the long run.

Please do not hesitate to ask questions here...there are a lot of people willing to help and a lot of knowledge to share. Just remember, don't buy anything until you've researched it and are confident you really want to buy it...it will save you money and hassles every time.

[HumanIMDB]

See in the time it took me to reply you already had three others helping you.

[abulgin]

Bad advice. You might want to pick up Robert Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist (new edition just out) and Anthony Calfo's Reef Invertebrates. Between these two, you should have all the info you need to get started and more--I can't tell you how invaluable they've been to me. They go into tank set up and filtration. Calfo's book goes into great detail about live rock curing/filtration and refugium setups.

I agree that you should buy the biggest tank you can afford. The larger the tank, the more stable it will be.

I agree that the filtration on "plug-and-play" tanks is, generally, less than perfect. I don't know of many "large" tanks that are plug and play, though. What size tank are you looking at? Tanks are basically the cheapest part of the equation. For example, a 90g reef ready (48"x18"x24") is $249.

If you want to keep a reef tank, a wet-dry filter is old-school and shouldn't be considered. Bio-balls and foam filter media trap too much detritus and don't break down nitrates. A sufficient quantity of live rock (3/4 to 1lb per gallon) is all the biological filtration you need and more. If you wanted to keep a fish-only system and planned to keep it heavily-stocked, I might consider a wet-dry. People use canister filters (I don't), but I think most reefers use them solely to run chemical media in like carbon and poly-filters. If you use them as a mechanical/biological filter, they can be trouble when your power goes out--die-off of bacteria and tank crash.

Here's the real deal to get started.

You need a tank and stand (can make it).

You need lights that fit your livestock (if fish-only, can be regular normal output fluorescent strips; if you plan to keep corals, you'll need a good quality T5 fixture or a MH fixture--many options here).

You need a good quality protein skimmer. Probably the single most important piece of gear other than a tank and lights. Don't skimp--spend the money. This is one of the few items where you really do get what you pay for. Trust me, I skimped and bought a Coralife Super Skimmer--flooded basements and algae problems later, I spent the $385 on the AquaC EV-180 and man what a difference.

Depending on the size of your tank, you will probably want (I don't say "need" because you don't but I couldn't imagine running a tank without one) a sump. This can be done cheaply or expensively. All you need is a vessel in which to hold water--this collects water from your display, runs the water through your skimmer, and returns the water to the display. You can buy/have made a fancy acrylic sump for about $150-$200. You can also use a cheap glass 20 gallon aquarium, affix baffles to create three chambers, and you're good to go. Sumps are great not only because they increase your water volume, but because they let you keep equipment in them/out of the way, like your skimmer, chemical media (carbon, etc.), phos reactors, etc.

If you use a sump, you'll need a return pump.

You'll need power heads to provide internal flow--aim for 20-30 x tank volume per hour.

You'll need heaters--use two that, alone, are enough for your tank--in case one fails.

You'll need live rock. As stated above, anywhere from 3/4lb to 1lb per gallon depending on what scape you're going for. You can get 50lbs of live rock from saltwaterfish.com for $99.

A refugium is not essential, but very, very worthwhile in my opinion. Not only do they export nutrients like phosphates and nitrates, but they provide a safe place where plankton can grow, which will feed your fish/corals. Again, you can spend a lot to get a fancy acrylic fuge, or, like me, you can make your own for about $50. I bought a 30 gallon plastic tub from Target, drilled holes for the inlet/outlet bulkheads, and hooked it up to a Maxi-Jet 1200 which sits in the first chamber of my sump. The return flow goes in the exit chamber of my sump. I light the sump with 2 17W fluorescent Lights of America Grow Lamps that I got at Wal-Mart for $9.99 each, and swapped out the bulbs with 18W GE AquaRays that are sold at my Lowes. I keep a 4+" deep sand bed, about 10 lbs of live rock, and a nice clump of Chaetomorpha

You will never be finished reading/learning. I learn something new every single day.

There is so much more to discuss, and I'm sure I'm missing some important things, but others will pipe in.

[abulgin]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur

To Reef Central

The tank should have 1.5 lbs of live rock per gallon and an argonite sand bed of 3 inches--these form the biological filtration for your system

www.kijiji.com

Cap'n, a couple notes. First, I think 1.5 lbs per gallon is a lot of rock. He needs to consider what fish he will have and make sure they have enough room to swim around. In my 110g, I have about 90-95 lbs of live rock. I have another 10-15lbs in my fuge, and another 4 lbs of rubble in my sump. Plenty of filtration, plenty of hiding places, and plenty of room for my larger fish to roam. Second, I think the "accepted" wisdom on substrate is that you either go for (a) no substrate or just an inch or less or (b) a deep sand bed of 4+ inches. Anything in between is just a biological/detritus nightmare nutrient sink waiting to happen.

[Airborne]

Thanks for helping out so quickly. I really appreciate your time and efforts.

[abulgin]

Originally posted by Airborne
Thanks for helping out so quickly. I really appreciate your time and efforts.

Airborne--honestly, the BEST advice I can give you is to get those two books I mentioned and read them before you start spending $. Jumping into this now seems very overwhelming, doesn't it? These books will provide you with a lot of information so that you feel a bit more comfortable when you start the process.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by abulgin
Cap'n, a couple notes. First, I think 1.5 lbs per gallon is a lot of rock. He needs to consider what fish he will have and make sure they have enough room to swim around. In my 110g, I have about 90-95 lbs of live rock. I have another 10-15lbs in my fuge, and another 4 lbs of rubble in my sump. Plenty of filtration, plenty of hiding places, and plenty of room for my larger fish to roam. Second, I think the "accepted" wisdom on substrate is that you either go for (a) no substrate or just an inch or less or (b) a deep sand bed of 4+ inches. Anything in between is just a biological/detritus nightmare nutrient sink waiting to happen.

Thanks Abulgin--i just wanted to make sure that the poster started with an adequate rock base before he spent money on useless stuff like a trickle filter and bioballs
I do the same thing as you--spread the rock out between the display tank, sump and two refugiums---some the poster can easily do as he decides on what fish he is going to raise

I have been raised and cultivated on this site and granted lack the experience you have---butthe norm here seems to be
one inch sand bed--cosmetic
2-4 inches mid range the ideal for living things that use it to live in and dig ect
5-8 inches deepsand bed--the trend going for keeping these in a separate refugium aka remote deep sand bed.

Once again I appreciate your posts and definetly do not want to provoke a disagreement with you but I was just my precieved norm on this site

[abulgin]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur

Once again I appreciate your posts and definetly do not want to provoke a disagreement with you but I was just my precieved norm on this site

No worries at all-you're not provoking anything. This site is for back-and-forth opinion sharing. I'm only regurgitating what I've read in Calfo's book, who explains the risks associated with a bed between 2-3 inches. He characterizes this as the most non-functional, potentially problematic of all depths.


Some interesting articles:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsubstr.htm

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

"Many theories and recommendations abound as to how best NNR can be achieved. We do know that good denitrification is less likely (but not impossible) to occur in shallow sand beds (less than 3�/7.5 cm), and with course sand. Some of the difficulties and criticisms of failed DSBs may be fairly attributed to such intermediate sand depths (1-3�/25-75mm) where the substrate was neither deep enough for efficient denitrification, nor shallow enough for thorough nitrifying activities."

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbdepth.htm"

[Would get more ammonia and nitrite reducing bacteria, but you don't need more of these. Nitrate reducing bacteria, which is what you are looking for, only can survive in low oxygen areas of a DSB which will not occur at only 2 inches. So all you get with 2 inches is more space for stuff to get caught and decay, with the areas of nitrate reduction which counter this problem. So a minimum of 3 inches, 4+ is better, is necessary to create a hospitable habitat for the nitrate reducing bacteria.]

[matthewscars]

$2500 for a 55 is fair.

I have a 55g tank and a stand (i built) and I still spent about $2500. My eye was on upgrading in the future, so I got the bigger/better stuff and all the optional stuff (phosban reactors). Some might not say they are optional but whatever.

You dont need a UV S. It's like coming to a fire with a super-soaker when it comes to ICH or anything else.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by abulgin
No worries at all-you're not provoking anything. This site is for back-and-forth opinion sharing. I'm only regurgitating what I've read in Calfo's book, who explains the risks associated with a bed between 2-3 inches. He characterizes this as the most non-functional, potentially problematic of all depths.


Some interesting articles:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsubstr.htm

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

"Many theories and recommendations abound as to how best NNR can be achieved. We do know that good denitrification is less likely (but not impossible) to occur in shallow sand beds (less than 3�/7.5 cm), and with course sand. Some of the difficulties and criticisms of failed DSBs may be fairly attributed to such intermediate sand depths (1-3�/25-75mm) where the substrate was neither deep enough for efficient denitrification, nor shallow enough for thorough nitrifying activities."

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbdepth.htm"

[Would get more ammonia and nitrite reducing bacteria, but you don't need more of these. Nitrate reducing bacteria, which is what you are looking for, only can survive in low oxygen areas of a DSB which will not occur at only 2 inches. So all you get with 2 inches is more space for stuff to get caught and decay, with the areas of nitrate reduction which counter this problem. So a minimum of 3 inches, 4+ is better, is necessary to create a hospitable habitat for the nitrate reducing bacteria.]

very interesting readings--thank you
What is the the name of Calfo's book--a few reefers have referenced it and I would love to read it