PLEASE check out your intended fish purchases here first!

[Sk8r]

Anthias (I've never had them) are reputed to like larger groups. Chromis tend to kill off members of their own group that they consider in excess. Make a chromis happy and let him have the whole tank solo.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Sk8r
Anthias (I've never had them) are reputed to like larger groups. Chromis tend to kill off members of their own group that they consider in excess. Make a chromis happy and let him have the whole tank solo.

Anthias like to kill off each other too Sk8r. I started with five and have only two.

Hard to believe the chromis is a damsel

[jenjen]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Anthias like to kill off each other too Sk8r. I started with five and have only two.

Eeeek, not what I wanted to hear!!!!!

[otrlynn]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
No they do not--they are great--no mess, everything gets consumed

here is a blog on it:
http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=258

Do you, by any chance, know a U.S. source for these?

[Sk8r]

Just as a note, there is one good way to keep damsels: one of a kind.
You can do a very beautiful tank in the 100g range with nothing BUT damsels: my fish list would be a jeweled damsel, a velvet, a yellowtail, a blue devil, a domino, a three-stripe, a handful of chromis (I prefer the blue: and they WILL school in this terrifying company ) ----a couple of miscellaneous damsels, and, if you have excellent water quality and are feeling flush, maybe a garibaldi. Your tank would be in constant motion through the rockscape. None of these guys bother corals (can't vouch for clams, but maybe no problem) and the most likely source of fatal violence is the chromis toward each other. Toss in a yellow dottyback for pure low cunning and mayhem, and you will have a tank with a black-with-blue-dots (jeweled); black with white vertical stripes (3-stripe); pure blue or green pastel: chromis; brilliant blue (blue devil and yellow tail); black with white dot (domino); black with white vertical and electric blue V (velvet); an orange with blue dots (garabaldi) and canary yellow (dottyback). And never still. It's kind of like the arms race: all those fish tend to be fatally violent only to their own species (gotta wonder how they get little ones)---and given ample food and rock spires to claim, they're happy chasing each other. You could even add a couple of the crankier clowns (who are also damsels) to the mix. I've had such a tank, and it generally gets oooh-ahs from non-reefers. Damsels get a lot of disrespect from the reefing community, but I think entirely undeservedly: they're big-ish fish (5 inches in your tank, ultimately, for many) and they want to run: they need that room. I had that mix (except the jeweled and the garabaldi, who weren't available to me) for years and only lost the occasional chromis.

[Circesfire]

First off, I have to say thanks for the wonderful site and to all the help you are providing to newcomers like me. Our tank is still filling up with water so it will be quite a while until it's ready for any inhabitants but here's my wish list.

The Setup
90 gallon tank w/ 30 gallon sump (w/ refugium containing live rock and sand)
Protein skimmer (haven't bought one yet was thinking of maybe the AquaC)
Also looking at adding 100 lbs live sand and around 120 lbs live rock as well as various SPS and LPS corals (I'll save that for another post to ask about those)

The Fish
Black capped basslet
Hippo Tang
Purple Tang (I know that he'll probably have to go in last)
Mandarin Goby (after 6 months and when I'm sure I'll have enough 'pods for him)
Mated pair of false percula clownfish (would love it if someone could suggest something that they would claim for a home other than an anemone)
Purple filefish
Neon Goby
4 wheel drive (signal) goby

I also plan on getting a large cleanup crew including some snails and hermit crabs. I'd love to have a lot of shrimp in the tank but was wondering if my idea of 4 cleaner shrimp, 2 fire shrimp and a mated pair of coral banded shrimp was too many for a 90 gallon?

Would a serpent star be ok for this setup? I was thinking about a linkia but after reading several posts decided against those?

Is that too much of a bioload for the tank? Anyone see any niches that I am missing?

All advice is appreciated. I have done a lot of research online, but nothing is as valuable as personal experience.

[Sk8r]

Go for a black/white serpent star: greens have some bad eating habits. The purple and hippo are likely to have issues. You may have to pick which one you want most.
Do you mean filefish or firefish? Firefish no problem: they are jumpers at any opportunity. Filefish would eat all your shrimp and cleanup crew, and I'm not sure about the corals.
geta skimmer rated for 180 gallons and you should be ok. I wouldn't spend for live sand: sand in contact with live rock becomes live sand pdq.
Beware of the coral banded shrimp: they've been known to take after small fish. I'd replace them with peppermints, if you want just a BIT of aggravation: they're characters.
Outside of that, you're good.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Circesfire
First off, I have to say thanks for the wonderful site and to all the help you are providing to newcomers like me. Our tank is still filling up with water so it will be quite a while until it's ready for any inhabitants but here's my wish list.

The Setup
90 gallon tank w/ 30 gallon sump (w/ refugium containing live rock and sand)
Protein skimmer (haven't bought one yet was thinking of maybe the AquaC)
Also looking at adding 100 lbs live sand and around 120 lbs live rock as well as various SPS and LPS corals (I'll save that for another post to ask about those)

The Fish
Black capped basslet
Hippo Tang
Purple Tang (I know that he'll probably have to go in last)
Mandarin Goby (after 6 months and when I'm sure I'll have enough 'pods for him)
Mated pair of false percula clownfish (would love it if someone could suggest something that they would claim for a home other than an anemone)
Purple filefish
Neon Goby
4 wheel drive (signal) goby

I also plan on getting a large cleanup crew including some snails and hermit crabs. I'd love to have a lot of shrimp in the tank but was wondering if my idea of 4 cleaner shrimp, 2 fire shrimp and a mated pair of coral banded shrimp was too many for a 90 gallon?

Would a serpent star be ok for this setup? I was thinking about a linkia but after reading several posts decided against those?

Is that too much of a bioload for the tank? Anyone see any niches that I am missing?

All advice is appreciated. I have done a lot of research online, but nothing is as valuable as personal experience.

To Reef Central

with regards to the hippo or purple tang---you will probably get a year to a year and a half with a 90gal and then will be looking for an upgrade. The blue(hippo) tang is a 13 inch fish.

Brown serpant stars have a very good rep for being an asset as a clean up crew.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Sk8r
Just as a note, there is one good way to keep damsels: one of a kind.
You can do a very beautiful tank in the 100g range with nothing BUT damsels: my fish list would be a jeweled damsel, a velvet, a yellowtail, a blue devil, a domino, a three-stripe, a handful of chromis (I prefer the blue: and they WILL school in this terrifying company ) ----a couple of miscellaneous damsels, and, if you have excellent water quality and are feeling flush, maybe a garibaldi. Your tank would be in constant motion through the rockscape. None of these guys bother corals (can't vouch for clams, but maybe no problem) and the most likely source of fatal violence is the chromis toward each other. Toss in a yellow dottyback for pure low cunning and mayhem, and you will have a tank with a black-with-blue-dots (jeweled); black with white vertical stripes (3-stripe); pure blue or green pastel: chromis; brilliant blue (blue devil and yellow tail); black with white dot (domino); black with white vertical and electric blue V (velvet); an orange with blue dots (garabaldi) and canary yellow (dottyback). And never still. It's kind of like the arms race: all those fish tend to be fatally violent only to their own species (gotta wonder how they get little ones)---and given ample food and rock spires to claim, they're happy chasing each other. You could even add a couple of the crankier clowns (who are also damsels) to the mix. I've had such a tank, and it generally gets oooh-ahs from non-reefers. Damsels get a lot of disrespect from the reefing community, but I think entirely undeservedly: they're big-ish fish (5 inches in your tank, ultimately, for many) and they want to run: they need that room. I had that mix (except the jeweled and the garabaldi, who weren't available to me) for years and only lost the occasional chromis.

+1 damsels only tanks can be very beautiful

[LeGaCYWinZ]

Alright so I'm going to be setting up my 125g in the very near future and am trying to plan what I want to stock. As far as corals I'm going to do a mixed reef with a focus on SPS. Assorted CUC.


Flame Angel
Lyretail Anthias(maybe)
Some kind of butterfly(maybe)
Some kind of Jawfish(maybe)
Royal Gramma
Lawnmower blenny
School of chromis
Pair of Percs
Green Mandarin(eventually)
A sandsifting goby
Blue tang
Yellow tang
Some kind of wrasse

How does this sound?

Also a question. Right now in my 29g the only fish I have in there is 1 damsel(not sure what kind...black with a yellow tail). I want to use the 29g as my QT tank once I set this up. Would the damsel be ok in the 125g since it is so much bigger?

[Circesfire]

Thanks all for the quick reply. I did mean firefish by the way. Filefish = nightmare in my future tank LOL.

[Everyones Hero]

I need to get a sand sifter for my 55g.

I was thinking about getting a Pistol Shrimp because I heard they're great for mixing up the sand bad.

Are they reef safe?

Are they sensitive to phosphates? (I still have brown algae growing in the tank so I'm assuming it's phosphates.)

Will it try to eat my Dottyback or Lawnmower Blenny?

Will they eat algae?

[Sk8r]

legacyWinz---a flame angel is future trouble for sps. They might ignore softies, but will lunch on polyps or will end up doing so, even if well-behaved at first. someday i fear it will be hungry, and your tank would be its candy store. Butterflies have the same habits, excepting one, which is the pyramid butterfly---which eats clams, so be warned: specialty diet and obviously not safe with a tank clam. The rest of your fish list should do just fine.


Everyone's Hero, your brown algae is probably cyanobacteria (a whole new problem: almost everybody gets it in their first year---and once a year thereafter.)
If you get a pistol shrimp, you need to be specific about type. The tiger pistol, for instance, pairs with a yellow watchman. They work together and are pretty good for a 55: I have the same.
They're pretty hardy, and tolerate most reasonable tank conditions. They don't eat algae: just detritus. I have seen the pistol nab a bit of algae for himself, but not a lot of it. Mostly they eat the brown fluff that accumulates in the bottom of tanks and help keep the sandbed in good condition.
A pistol can attack a persistent invader of the burrow, and there might be some dispute with the dottyback, but I doubt it. Lawnmower blenny and yellow watchman might do some blustering about, but no serious battle, IME, just posturing. I'd be a little worried about the dottyback if he decided to push the pistol shrimp, but I really think he'd have better sense after getting his nose bopped once. They learn fast.

[Everyones Hero]

Thanks for the reply.

I was starting to think I had an issue with my water because I knew about the cyano in the first month or so, but the tank has been going for a couple of months now & it's still growing. No green algae yet.

One of the reasons I went with the Springer's Dottyback vs the Neon or Sunrise is because the Springer's is supposed to be a good community fish, as long as there aren't similar looking fish in the tank.

[Green'n'Gold]

What a great thread . . .

I have a 90g bowfront with a 30g sump that's about 3 weeks into cycling. I have 2 X 250W MH's with 2 X 96W actinics. In time, I'd like this to be an SPS dominated tank, but I'd also like a few fish that will have to be reef-safe. I'd really appreciate everyone's opinion on some fish I'd like to eventually have . . .

1. Powder Blue Tang
2. Powder Brown Tang
3. Yellow Tang

Is there anyway to introduce tangs at separate times? From what I've read, it seems like they always have to be introduced at the same time.

4. Long nose butterfly

Are these guys truly reef-safe? People I've talked to say yes, but I've heard they can be a little "chompy".

5. Mandarin (well down the road)
6. Lawnmower blenny

Thanks for the help!

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Green'n'Gold
What a great thread . . .

I have a 90g bowfront with a 30g sump that's about 3 weeks into cycling. I have 2 X 250W MH's with 2 X 96W actinics. In time, I'd like this to be an SPS dominated tank, but I'd also like a few fish that will have to be reef-safe. I'd really appreciate everyone's opinion on some fish I'd like to eventually have . . .

1. Powder Blue Tang
2. Powder Brown Tang
3. Yellow Tang

Is there anyway to introduce tangs at separate times? From what I've read, it seems like they always have to be introduced at the same time.

4. Long nose butterfly

Are these guys truly reef-safe? People I've talked to say yes, but I've heard they can be a little "chompy".

5. Mandarin (well down the road)
6. Lawnmower blenny

Thanks for the help!

Three tangs in a 90 gal is pushing it. IMO order of possible agression would be power blue, the yellow and finally the most non agressive--the brown tang.
As long as they are small you can introduce them together--and hopefully quarantine them first.

As with most butterflies it is a risk you take as to being reef safe towards corals

[Sk8r]

Re brown algae: one of the things that makes online description difficult is that light spectrum makes a big difference in how we see it: is it red, is it brown, is it pale brown? If you turn out the lights for 3 days (4th actinic) and it goes away, it was cyano: if it doesn't, it isn't. The best thing you can do with cyano is lights-out once a month and skim hard during those times. Above all, don't try a chemical solution on a new tank: a big risk unless you've got a potent skimmer, and even so weakens the sandbed.

reefsafe butterfly: the pyramid is the only one we've turned up in this thread, but it does eat clams---apparently it needs or strongly wants a diet of clams.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Sk8r
Re brown algae: one of the things that makes online description difficult is that light spectrum makes a big difference in how we see it: is it red, is it brown, is it pale brown? If you turn out the lights for 3 days (4th actinic) and it goes away, it was cyano: if it doesn't, it isn't. The best thing you can do with cyano is lights-out once a month and skim hard during those times. Above all, don't try a chemical solution on a new tank: a big risk unless you've got a potent skimmer, and even so weakens the sandbed.

reefsafe butterfly: the pyramid is the only one we've turned up in this thread, but it does eat clams---apparently it needs or strongly wants a diet of clams.

alot of people have success with copper banded butterflies--providing they get them to feed in quarantine
Have you not found that Sk8R??

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Sk8r
Re brown algae: one of the things that makes online description difficult is that light spectrum makes a big difference in how we see it: is it red, is it brown, is it pale brown? If you turn out the lights for 3 days (4th actinic) and it goes away, it was cyano: if it doesn't, it isn't. The best thing you can do with cyano is lights-out once a month and skim hard during those times. Above all, don't try a chemical solution on a new tank: a big risk unless you've got a potent skimmer, and even so weakens the sandbed.

+1 red slime remover should not be used for a tank under a year.
Cyano is a bacteria--red slime will kill it but the good bacteria can also take a hit --in a well established tank the good bacteria will bounce right back quickly(cycle)

Cyano likes low flow areas where phosphates and nitrates can accumulate. Taking a turkey baster to reef rock and the substrate--lightly basting it--will help remove the accumulation of its food source.
With excellent flow rates these phosphates and nitrates can easily be removed from the tank via your filtration system.
When basting it is also a good idea to run a filter sock over the drain for 12 hours later--this helps the skimmer remove some of the organics.

there are some links to fighting algae and cyano by eliminating phosphates and nitrates, on my log book:

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=346

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=346

[kdc527]

hi everyone i have a 55 gallon tank with a 29 gal sump a bermuda 3-c some live rock in my sump soon will be turning it into a sump/fuge. My question is there any way to put a mandrin in after my fuge gets stableized with a pod population. My tank has been up and running for about 8 months now. My live stock is as follows.Pair of false percs pair of cleaner shrimp skunks. A bi color psedo.a couple rics gsps and some yellow polyps.

[Jay1982]

well I finally got my straightline bristletooth out. So i brought it back to the store, and they had a stunning flamehawk.

Thing is, I love my cleaner shrimp, and the snails do a great job at cleaning. Will the flame hawk keep off for a little while, or is it a guarentee that they'd be dinner sooner rather than later

[Sk8r]

Kdc527. The only worry will be the pseudochromis, aka dottyback---not as bad as a wrasse about pod-scarfing, but kind of watch if your pod population doesn't get up where you'd like it. I have had dottybacks and mandys at the same time, however, and I think you can do it. Right now I run a 20g fuge in my sump and have a very fat mandy in my 54g.

Re cyano, there are a lot of threads on it, but everybody should learn to spot it. It's bacteria. It's ancient. And it can crawl. Proving it's not a plant, unless you count kudzu. It's a eukaryote, along with diatoms. Cyanobacteria gave us our planet's oxygen atmosphere after the Permian; it IS the origin of the photosynthesizing element in green plants; and it's incredibly variable: it can change color to absorb whatever spectrum of light it can find; it 'fixes' nitrogen and thrives on carbon dioxide, giving off oxygen as it does so. So its three life requirements are sunlight, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide...only one of which we can successfully deny them: light. It can adapt to use other chemicals, too...so it's a pita to get rid of. Almost every tank gets it. Diatoms: pretty much the same, BUT it uses silica to make its structures. And then there's coralline algae, which everybody WANTS, unlike poor unloved cyano...yet it and cyanobacteria behave a lot the same, in that they change the ph of surrounding water to lay down a carbonate crust...
All these things date from way back in Earth's history, and are a very interesting study. Look up "cyanobacteria" and "eukaryote" on the web, and settle back for some real paleontology.
The good news is, yes, you can beat it. But you will see it now and again. I've learned to be fairly philosophical about it, since it doesn't hurt anything: it's just kind of untidy. When it gets bad enough I do something to get rid of it. I DON"T like the chemical cleaners: too dangerous for a new tank. Basically they're erythromycin. And you know what I think about dosing your display tank with meds. Don't do it. ;P

[Sk8r]

Flame hawkfish---has no swim bladder, perches, will shelter in coral branches or in a Magnifica anemone; will eat small crustaceans, and small fishes. Don't put Neon Gobies with this one. Shrimp are probably at risk eventually, depending on relative size. They will go after snails and hermit crabs ASAP.

If this gets to be a problem for your tank chemistry, you may need to establish a remote sandbed in a fuge where you can house your inverts. That way you maintain two environments: one in the display tank for the hawkfish, where he's safe and kept from predation on your cleaning crew; and one for small invertebrates who will maintain that second sandbed, redundant stability for your tank.

[Everyones Hero]

Thanks everyone. I'm not really worried about it. It scrapes right off with my scraper (I've got a magnet on the way to make it easier.)

For flow I've got a K2 & a Penguin (300gph) along with my C-160 (coming off when my K3 gets here) & my 300gph return from my sump.

That's a total of about 1300gph in a 55g at the moment.

You guys are saying no chemicals in a new tank: Are you saying Phosban is not a good idea? Or are you referring to chemicals just to kill the algae/bacteria? I have 45lbs of Florida dry rock coming in. Once some of that seeds I plan on putting it into my sump so I have more surface area for algae grown in the sump, which I'm hoping will prevent some of the growth in my display.

[Sk8r]

There is a very short list of things that are ok in a new tank.
1. garlic, as a fish tonic. Crushed raw garlic from the grocery does just fine.
2. phosban--gfo (granular ferric oxide) for phosphate removal.
3. kalk (pickling lime) used to maintain ph/calcium/alkalinity (used in autotopoff, among other methods: test, and get advice about this)
4. regular additives like calcium, magnesium, dkh buffer (but Test for these things!)
5. carbon, for removing organics and ammonia
6. polyfilter (at any hint of metallic contamination or just anything you suspect but can't figure what could be wrong).
I can't think of any others. My list of safe things deliberately excludes miracle cures for ich, copper, antibiotics, red slime removers, and trace element additives. Take care of your sandbed and it will take care of you. Also do not spray Windex in the same room as your tank (go to the hall to spray a cloth to use: ditto furniture polish, etc.); do not put your hands in the tank if you have been using motor oil, hand creme, Purell sanitary wash or the like, or perfumed soaps, or soaps with oils and conditioners. Or soaps. Rinse abundantly after soap use. Medical exam gloves not only protect your hands, they protect your tank: when in doubt, glove up. HTH.