Ich problem

[Ron Cote]

I've had my 120g tank up for 3 months. I've now lost a Kole and Yellow Tangs and appear to be losing another Kole tang. I'm not so advanced to also have a QT yet, but looks like that will now come sooner than later and before any other fish hit the display tank.

So what should I do to this display tank. The last Tang was lost just about 1 week ago and the new tang that was put into the tank on Saturday now has Ich. I guess that the parasites where still within there life cycle. I did install a 25w UV Sterilizer 10 days ago.

Currently have only a Wrasses, Blenny and two Clowns. They don't have any current ich signs for the moment.

So what are your suggestions? My immediate feelings is that I should now wait at least 3 weeks in hopes that my criters, which include two Skunk Scrimps and the UV clean things up and hopefully will end this Ich life cycle.

Thanks to all who can help this newbie.

[Urchinhead]

Unfortunately if you really want to get rid of the ich for sure you are going to be investing in a QT/Hospital tank and not be adding any more fish for a long time.

As I recall Tangs are particularly vulnerable to ich btw.

Right now your tank is infested with ich and all of your fish, regardless of lack of symptoms, are infected with it and will need to be treated.

Skipping over allot of detail that you can look up if you are so inclined ich is present in the water column, the fish, etc and a UV sterilizer is only going to catch what is in the water column and then only kill it if the hang time in front of the UV light is at the right speed. For a 25w I think that is about 65 gph but may be wrong.

What you will need to do is setup a QT tank that is large enough to support all of the fish you presently have regardless of symptoms. Attach the UV sterilizer to this tank after giving it a good flushing with hypo salinity RO water. Do not use anything from your infected tank in the QT tank.

Next take all of your fish out of the tank and give each one a Formalin dip (I am partial to Formalin but there are other things you can use) using a 5ml to 1L ratio solution of salt water for 5 minutes. Monitor the fish and remove if it appears to be having problems.

Next put the fish in the QT tank and repeat dips every three to four days for about 10 days.

Keep the fish in the QT tank for a total of 6 to 8 weeks and run the main tank fallow. This means no fish in it but inverts and corals are fine.

After you are sure you are symptom free on all fish (and you should be) re introduce the fish to the main tank.

Each new fish you get do a Formalin dip and keep it in a QT tank for 10 days treating for various things as needed.

[WaterKeeper]

Good post Urchin.

Ron,

Adding fish after fish to an ich infected tank is cruel and unusual punishment for an innocent fish. The ich parasite has a life cycle of about 6 weeks in 80° F water. Therefore it takes the same amount of time for the reefkeeper to eliminate it from the infected fish. ANY fish exposed to the infected tank will become ill or carry the parasite.

Urchin favors formalin dips and I like copper; the third choice is hyposalinity. To use copper, get a tank large enough to hold all your fish, a heater and a biowheel (any HOB filter is fine), copper ich medication and a copper test kit. Fill the tank with water from the display and warm to 82°F. Start the filter without any media, it is mainly for circulation, and add the infected fish. Add the proper amount of copper solution according to the package dosing direction. After it is mixed check the copper level; it should be between 0.2 and .25 ppm. If low, add more medication, if high, remove some water and replace with water from the display.

Make up some saltwater mix and add the proper dose of copper. With this solution you will replace 20% of the hospital tank water each day. This keeps nitrogen levels under control during the treatment period. Every day check the copper level and adjust to the proper 0.2-0.25 range if needed. You do this for a full month then you can stop the copper additions. Observe the fish in the hospital tank for another two weeks to make sure they are parasite free.

Good luck.

Anyone whats to explain the hypo treatment, feel free.

[Urchinhead]

Cheers WaterKeeper

Actually I think they found that the Hyposalinity treatment is far less optimal than Copper or Formalin.

I am a fan of Formalin for two reasons. First is that it kills everything and second is it is slightly less toxic than Copper.

[dustin273]

Sorry to hear about the Ich problem. I've been there and done that a few times. Very Stressful....on me as well as the fish!!!

Now, I decided it was cheaper to invest in a QT. My experience is that the Ich takes about 6 week to get rid of as mentioned above. I just recently made a stupid mistake of putting a fish in without QT first, because of being impatient....it ended up costing me big $$$$$ again. ( when do I learn !! ) I ended up losing two expensive fish and the others where on there way. I ended up removing the the other two fish and let the tank sit while the fish were being treated. In the QT tanks, I used Cupramine on one fish and I had to use Paragurad on the other, because it's a puffer and they don't take copper well at all. I only used the chemicals for about 15 day and then did a water change and started to do daily dips in a 5 gallon bucket with medication. 6 weeks later ( about one month ago ) I reintroduced the two fish back into the tank. They seem to be doing great... so far!!

Whatever you do, don't get impatient and stick those fish back into the tank to early...they will get ich again. ( I've done it ) The UV sterilizer will help but will not completely kill the ich cycle. Good luck!!

[WaterKeeper]

Tell that to the people in those formaldehyde laced trailers in New Orleans.

[Urchinhead]

Heheh. Yeah. Thats why I said dips mate.

[sml41]

you have a lot of good advice ; you need to QT ; I had to for 6 weeks and treated with quick cure for my clowns; leaving my main tank fishless ; it is hard but the best way or after awhile when the fish start dropping off , it is cheaper than buying more stock and watching their demise ; I then added in a UV sterilizer and kept up on maintenance on the tank ; I fed garlic soaked food which I guess disguises the fish from ich parasites ; there will always be ich in the tank but the key is that the fish have an immunity to fight it off; a weaken state , means infection ; also, vary foods, it is key to good health; fish don' t eat the same thing in the wild ; I heard that fish dips are too traumatic for the fish and can cause death by trauma; I didn't fW dip ; just quick cure and quarantine and everyone survived ; my lesson , treat fast , don't wait for stage 4 disease before treating ; first sign, treat; I QT all new fish and treat before adding to main tank ; patience pays off

[Lyfey]

quick question.. with the HOB filter, that was being used on the DT, then you transfer it over to the HT or QT.. for the beneficial bacteria reasons.. if you are running copper on your QT/HT.. can you re-use the HOB filter and biowheel back to your DT? or should you chuck the bio wheel?.. the filter will be cleaned reguardless.. but does the bio-wheel get thrown away after the qt process? or can you just put it back on your dt?

[kevin2000]

My 02

While I agree Urchins recommendation of QTing I do not agree with the recommendation for a series of 5 minute formalin baths. Once you have all the fish in QT you should treat with either copper or hyposalinity.

Formalin used in high concentrations by experienced aquarist can be effective against ich .. but it has limited pratical value for hobby aquarist who are in no rush (need to keep their DT fallow for 5-6 weeks anyways). Your best bet is to use copper or hyposalinity.

[kevin2000]

My 02

While I agree with Urchins recommendation of QTing I do not agree with the recommendation for a series of 5 minute formalin baths. Once you have all the fish in QT you should treat with either copper or hyposalinity.

Formalin used in high concentrations by experienced aquarist can be effective against ich .. but it has limited practical value for hobby aquarist who are in no rush (need to keep their DT fallow for 5-6 weeks anyways). Your best bet is to use copper or hyposalinity.

[Urchinhead]

Kevin,

No worries here but I do need to point out that Formalin kills everything and is slightly less toxic to the fish when used as I mention. Copper overall is the better treatment for ich specifically but in the long run can do more harm overall and runs a higher risk of being used incorrectly.

Of course to play Devil's Advocate Formalin, if used incorrectly, is very quickly fatal to fish. And one must be careful not to see everything as a nail because all one has is a hammer.

In my mind its six of one half dozen of the other. I am fond of Formalin because of its 100% lethality to all parasites and other organisms. I use it on all fish before they go into QT and to treat all parasitic infestations.

And I can be allot more loose with my treatment protocol. Loose because I am using dips and not dosing the QT/Hospital tank so I am not having to monitor the QT tank for strength of medication.

My long winded point being that in my experience its easier to use and much more effective than Copper.

For bacterial infections of course I use something else.

Hyposalinity on the other hand I believe to be almost worthless per studies done in marine commercial fisheries (specifically salmon) infested with ich. Just like feeding garlic is worthless.

Also keep in mind that contrary to popular belief it is possible to rid the tank of ich. Ich has a 45 to 60 day life cycle and if it has no host it will ultimately die off. It just takes about 6 to 8 weeks with 8 weeks being safest. Again this is born out by scientific study.

[tmz]

I prefer copper, particularly cupramine which is chelated ( sort of timed release)and gentler. I also find it easier to maintain a therapuetic level.

For copper sensitive fish such a puffers hyposalainty or the tank transfer method will work. The later invovles moving the fish from one tank to another with clean water every three days. Four transfers usually leaves the fish ich free. This is an elegant approach though somewhat labor intensive ,since you just keep leaving the free swimming parasites behind,similar to what would happen in the sea as they would be washed away in currents. Developing gentle capture techniques is important as is matching the water from tank to tank to avoid heavy stress on the fish.
For me hyposalinity takes a long time and is sometimes effective and sometimes not . It may be a nice alternative to removing fish from a fish only tank though if you don't have invertebrates or significant microfualna ,all of which will die in a a hypotonic environment.

[Ron Cote]

Great advice from everyone. I will re-read everyone's input when I have more time later on today to decide which specific treatment to pursue.

Most importantly, I will take a step back and get a QT started immediately and no new fish for at least 6 - 8 weeks. I'm actually a very patient guy when I know what needs to be done.

I'll keep you all posted, hopefully of my progress and not my failure.

Many thanks/Ron

[otrlynn]

Perhaps you have read this already but there is more information about ich to be found here. It is from the "First time" sticky at the top of this forum.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[tmz]

Another thought. As you research your treatment options, don't stop at ich. Ich gets all the press,but flukes, brooklynella and amyloodinium are very common too and require different treatments. Sometimes distinguishing these can be tricky but can be done.

[Urchinhead]

I should have been more clear in my posting on hyposalinity. My apologies. I was thinking hypo-dips and baths when I typed my responses and for some reason that didn't get into the message. Most likely due to old age.

If you run your QT tank at a SG level that is (if I remember it right) at 1.015 to 1.018 continuously then hypo is a good method to use and safer than copper.

TMZ is right. That is one of the reasons I like formalin so much. It knocks down everything. The only time not to use it is if the fish have open wounds or sores as it can irritate and kill the injured flesh.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by Urchinhead
If you run your QT tank at a SG level that is (if I remember it right) at 1.015 to 1.018 continuously then hypo is a good method to use and safer than copper.

The current numbers are 1.009.

[Urchinhead]

Originally posted by kevin2000
The current numbers are 1.009.

Wow! That is low! Good to know.

[tmz]

Originally posted by Urchinhead
Wow! That is low! Good to know.

Careful. Be sure you have an accurate salinity measure. If you hit or go below 1.008, the internal salinity of the fish, you could do serious harm.