Reef Crystals Salt Mix Problems

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally posted by jasoncampbell83
I will no longer buy Reef Crystals... I bought a 5 gallon bucket from them last August, it must have been a bad batch because all my fish and coral died, in only the two tanks I used it in for a water change. They had me send a salt sample, after 4 months of calling and calling they just said "your salt was fine, we cant give you the parameters because if its fine we dont keep them, but its fine" Well that wasnt good enough for me. I turned them into the Better Business Bureau and then I get the water parameters in the mail about 3 months after they told me they didnt have any way of giving the results to me because they didnt keep them. They ended up sending me a tank kit that was double worth the salt that I bought (it sells online for 120.00), still it didnt replace the 600.00 worth of fish and corals I lost... So I wouldnt be surprised what comes up with their salt. I definately wouldnt recomend it at all. I now use Coral Pro Salt and have had no problems!

You know when I was on the phone with them today I noticed that they had very poor customer service... Almost like they were expecting people to call in. I talk to an engineer the second time and he even said a lot of people were calling reporting similar issues. He said one even said they thought the salt water mix smelled like fertilizer (which is true, I agree). So I would not be surprised by this. Very poor customer service, they wanted to argue with me rather than try and fix the issue, they also wanted me to send a sample in so they could test it, but I had to pay to ship it to them. As I stated before this is sad, even a good friend of mine who has used this stuff forever (the one who turned me on to it) thinks there is a quality control issue. Thats just my educated opinion... Everyone can use what they wish in their systems, I know that I won't be using RC anymore. By the way I have 2 and 3/4 buckets of RC up for grabs, anyone interested?

[gooyferret]

Originally posted by BigJay
The formula has changed in the last year or so. IO started adding more calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity to their RC salt mix. Most people would agree that's probably a good thing.

However, higher Calcium + Mag + Alk = more precipirate. It's brown. It's the same color that forms on your pumps, skimmer, and heaters. Get over it already. Randy is a real-life scientist. His article is based on scientific fact and knowledge. "Brown = ugly and bad" is a stupid argument to make because it lacks both science and common sense.

If you want to use a designer salt, then go ahead and buy one, but don't sit here and tell everyone that they are going to kill their tanks with this salt. Good reefers will test every new bucket of salt, and make adjustments as necessary for water changes.

Can you give me the exact date they changed their formula? Who told you the added more calc, Mag and Alk?

I dont "think" you know! Just like last year or so.....VERY broad statement. Personally I wouldnt post or even consider saying this without hard PROOF! I personally dont know or never heard of "Randy" but if he is a "real life scientist" is that saying there is an imaginary one also? Science and common sense shouldn't even be used in the same sentence... Alot of things done by scientists have been done by accident, not on purpose!

As for common sense, if I poop in my toilet I dont think thats a good thing.....BUT ITS BROWN!

My point to this post is not to tease, or pick at a conversation, but to get some hard FACTS! Randy probably is a great guy but has he tested every single salt mix on the market? Is that what he specializes in is testing salt? Probably not.

I too have the brown film in my mixing tanks, on my heater, and pump. I dont feel that its the cause of algae blooms, but could it be? I feel this question should go to Dr Foster Smith and other suppliers. It seems from this thread that the company dont care about the consumers concern, but may do something if the distributors say or do something!

Just my opinion and I also would like to know what the "brown" stuff is!

[dzhuo]

I have seen this as well. In fact, I reported this almost 2 years ago:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1208977

But no one can confirm as if I am the only one who has this issue. Once I saw what's left, I pretty much stopped using it.

BTW, it's not how you mix. It really does look like "dirt" to be honest.

[BigJay]

Originally posted by gooyferret
Can you give me the exact date they changed their formula? Who told you the added more calc, Mag and Alk?

I dont "think" you know! Just like last year or so.....VERY broad statement. Personally I wouldnt post or even consider saying this without hard

Umm, it's right there on the bucket. "Now with more Calcium!" A year ago when I first tried RC, that label wasn't there. The new batches are also testing higher than they used to, read the salt thread in the reef chemistry forum. Yes, those people did test every brand and they posted the results.

Originally posted by gooyferret
I personally dont know or never heard of "Randy" but if he is a "real life scientist" is that saying there is an imaginary one also?

I meant that he's a real scientist as opposed to some armchair internet pretender that barely passed high school chem or bio.

Originally posted by gooyferret
Science and common sense shouldn't even be used in the same sentence... Alot of things done by scientists have been done by accident, not on purpose!

You heard it first here on the internet, so it must be true. Science is an accident.

Originally posted by gooyferret
Randy probably is a great guy but has he tested every single salt mix on the market? Is that what he specializes in is testing salt? Probably not.

You do realize that testing salt is just simple qualitative and quantitative analysis right? I only had to take three semesters of chem in college and we went through that.

Look you can ignore fact all you want, it doesn't make me look any worse. RC isn't loading their salt buckets up with fecal matter. It is entirely possible that there is a bad batch out with low calcium, inadequate magnesium, and alkalinity that's far too high. That needs to be reported and addressed. The residue is calcium, magnesium, and carbonate that precipitates when the salt is mixed. I'm sorry that the brown color of the stuff makes you feel bad, but that's all that it is.

[BigJay]

Originally posted by ChrisKirkland
You know when I was on the phone with them today I noticed that they had very poor customer service... Almost like they were expecting people to call in. I talk to an engineer the second time and he even said a lot of people were calling reporting similar issues. He said one even said they thought the salt water mix smelled like fertilizer (which is true, I agree). So I would not be surprised by this. Very poor customer service, they wanted to argue with me rather than try and fix the issue, they also wanted me to send a sample in so they could test it, but I had to pay to ship it to them. As I stated before this is sad, even a good friend of mine who has used this stuff forever (the one who turned me on to it) thinks there is a quality control issue. Thats just my educated opinion... Everyone can use what they wish in their systems, I know that I won't be using RC anymore. By the way I have 2 and 3/4 buckets of RC up for grabs, anyone interested?

There probably is a QC issue on the boxed stuff. Anyone rememeber when Kent shipped buckets of salt with no alkalinity added? It happens, and IO should replace the bad batch. Sorry to hear that their customer support is so bad.

PS: What did the magnesium test? Magnesium inhibits the precipitation of calcium carbonate. I'm thinking that if their mag is too low then more residue may end up in the bottom of your mixing bucket.

[rigleautomotive]

another possibility is simply that there is some dust and dirt in the warehouse where it is made or stored.These buildings are not a sterile environment and i am sure there are a certain ppm of dust or dirt allowed.I get a brown residue on my mixing barrel after a few months using red sea coral pro,RC and back when i used IO also but i cant attribute any negative side effects from it.I am not a big fan of RC,but its because i dont love the high alk readings ,not because there is a residue left in the mixing barrel.

[rigleautomotive]

Originally posted by gooyferret
Can you give me the exact date they changed their formula? Who told you the added more calc, Mag and Alk?

I dont "think" you know! Just like last year or so.....VERY broad statement. Personally I wouldnt post or even consider saying this without hard PROOF! I personally dont know or never heard of "Randy" but if he is a "real life scientist" is that saying there is an imaginary one also? Science and common sense shouldn't even be used in the same sentence... Alot of things done by scientists have been done by accident, not on purpose!





Just my opinion and I also would like to know what the "brown" stuff is!

I dont mean to pick an argument here but if you never heard of randy holmes farley you may need to do a little more reading and research before you make any decisions on reef tank chemistry.

[goldmaniac]

I started using Red Sea Coral Pro about 3 years ago when i started with corals, it's always been great.

I didn't know anyone else who uses it and here I see two recent posts of RC'ers using it too, thought I'd chime in, as well.

[mpoletti]

Originally posted by rigleautomotive
I dont mean to pick an argument here but if you never heard of randy holmes farley you may need to do a little more reading and research before you make any decisions on reef tank chemistry.

Ditto. Randy has done more for us hobbyists that have no clue about chemistry than anyone one else in the hobby.

As for the RC salt, I have been using it in a mix of salts since the beginning. Yes, there is some brown film, but I have not ever lost any corals to my salt mix.

[gophia]

Originally posted by gooyferret
I personally dont know or never heard of "Randy" but if he is a "real life scientist" is that saying there is an imaginary one also? Science and common sense shouldn't even be used in the same sentence... Alot of things done by scientists have been done by accident, not on purpose!

FYI, Just a few of Randy's "little" articles

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=102605

[mpoletti]

Originally posted by downhillbiker
RC is not going out of business. I dont remember the details but there was a big thread on here a few months ago about it. The parent company of RC, has filed bankruptsy and is dropping some of their product lines, but they are not going to stop making RC, IO and RC are their biggest money makers.

Yep, Here is a little insider information

"United Pet Group is a profitable, healthy business, which is unfortunately owned by Spectrum Brands, which is currently operating under chapter 11 bankruptcy. We have not had to, nor do we ever intend to, cut corners or try to lessen the quality of our sea salts. Period.
We improved the formula of Reef Crystals about 3 months ago (early March) by adding more Calcium. When properly prepared to 35ppt, Reef Crystals should yield readings of 455-470 Calcium, 1400 Mag, and 13dkh, with a tolerance of +/- 5%."

[lucas73]

Not a Reef Crystals user,but I receive a slight brown residue from my Red Sea Coral Pro after mixing 24 to 48 hours with no ill effects on any of my tank inhabitants.Nor any algae issues associated with the brown residue either.






Ditto. Randy has done more for us hobbyists that have no clue about chemistry than anyone one else in the hobby.
+ 1



__________________

[downhillbiker]

Originally posted by gooyferret
I personally dont know or never heard of "Randy" but if he is a "real life scientist" is that saying there is an imaginary one also? Science and common sense shouldn't even be used in the same sentence... Alot of things done by scientists have been done by accident, not on purpose!

I am sorry that you dont know who Randy is. His name is Randy Holmes-Farley and he is probably the biggest reef chemist in the industry. He is extremely knowledgable and writes his own articles, articles for reefkeeping magazine, and many others. You should google his name and read some of his articles. You will be shocked at what you've been missing. He is also responsible for some of the best reef chemistry calculators on the web. You just insert water volume, parameters and choose from a list of chemicals to supplement with, and it tells you how much to add, and any side effects or time frames involved. he has made this hobby a lot easier on all of us.

[RRaider]

When I used Coralife I got the same thing. I really doubt RC is the cause of your dino's or many more of us would be seeing the same thing. Since switching to RC my sps is coloring up better.

[PhilTeau]

Originally posted by lucas73
Not a Reef Crystals user,but I receive a slight brown residue from my Red Sea Coral Pro after mixing 24 to 48 hours with no ill effects on any of my tank inhabitants.Nor any algae issues associated with the brown residue either.

__________________

Same here...and same with D-D H2Ocean. I remember reading where both Red Sea and H2Ocean are supplied with their salt from the same desalinization plant over in Middle East. The residue is a byproduct of the desalinization...and is harmless. In fact, a customer representative told me that it should have a positive effect on skimming. I've had great experiences with both salts.

[HumbleLobster]

I've been using reef crystals for about two years now and I've had the same hard brown precipitate form onto my mixing tank heaters/pump/container. The amount that forms is always a very thin amount, and usually comes as a result of adding my salt too fast to my mixing container, resulting in localized precipitation.

I always test my salt before performing a water change, and I have noticed small variations in the mag or calcium here and there, but I just supplement and use it. I haven't had any ill effects in the last two years that I would attribute to the salt.

I agree, that if there are quality control issues with the salt they should be adderssed as they are discovered, but as others have stated, other mixes also have this brown hard stuff coming out of their mixing water. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that this is normal or good, but I wouldn't say its bad either. Without a full chemical analysis of the brown stuff, its difficult to say what exactly it is. Randy's cursory testing shows what the basic form of it is, and thats good enough for me.

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally posted by gooyferret
Can you give me the exact date they changed their formula? Who told you the added more calc, Mag and Alk?

I dont "think" you know! Just like last year or so.....VERY broad statement. Personally I wouldnt post or even consider saying this without hard PROOF! I personally dont know or never heard of "Randy" but if he is a "real life scientist" is that saying there is an imaginary one also? Science and common sense shouldn't even be used in the same sentence... Alot of things done by scientists have been done by accident, not on purpose!

As for common sense, if I poop in my toilet I dont think thats a good thing.....BUT ITS BROWN!

My point to this post is not to tease, or pick at a conversation, but to get some hard FACTS! Randy probably is a great guy but has he tested every single salt mix on the market? Is that what he specializes in is testing salt? Probably not.

I too have the brown film in my mixing tanks, on my heater, and pump. I dont feel that its the cause of algae blooms, but could it be? I feel this question should go to Dr Foster Smith and other suppliers. It seems from this thread that the company dont care about the consumers concern, but may do something if the distributors say or do something!

Just my opinion and I also would like to know what the "brown" stuff is!

And thats why I started this thread, not to cause wars or a pandemic just to find out what the h#$% is going on... We pay for this and I pay for quality. I agree with you totally.

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally posted by mpoletti
Yep, Here is a little insider information

"United Pet Group is a profitable, healthy business, which is unfortunately owned by Spectrum Brands, which is currently operating under chapter 11 bankruptcy. We have not had to, nor do we ever intend to, cut corners or try to lessen the quality of our sea salts. Period.
We improved the formula of Reef Crystals about 3 months ago (early March) by adding more Calcium. When properly prepared to 35ppt, Reef Crystals should yield readings of 455-470 Calcium, 1400 Mag, and 13dkh, with a tolerance of +/- 5%."

And who did you get this from...??

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally posted by RRaider
When I used Coralife I got the same thing. I really doubt RC is the cause of your dino's or many more of us would be seeing the same thing. Since switching to RC my sps is coloring up better.

Just switched last month from Red Sea Coral Pro to RC... Thats why I blame RC...

[mpoletti]

Originally posted by ChrisKirkland
And who did you get this from...??

Somebody who has worked in the industry for 14 years

[ChrisKirkland]

Let me put a blanket statement out here, I know that we all have our opinions and I respect that, but please understand that the RC salt in each container we each order is from a different batch, which means some of you all have a hidious issue like me, and some of you have not a problem. So with that being said I only started this tread to find out what the heck is going on, not to scare anyone or dog RC. It is when a company is so hard headed that make me begin to doubt them. If you refer to a few posts earier from me about my phone conversation, they blamed everything on me, and sat on their high horse and said we are the expert (when probably very few have even owned a reef tank, yet along cared for one) . Thats where I draw the line, your customers are FIRST, they did not do that. At one point in my conversation with the rep. she told me that she had no more time to explain this and that I should just deal with it. Thats NOT how I do business and that why I am dogging RC now because it's makers are not giving us reefers the customer experience we deserve, whether we are seasoned or not.

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally posted by mpoletti
Somebody who has worked in the industry for 14 years

So mark why am I getting reading of calcium at about 380-400 between an, API, Hagan, and Salfart Test Kits that are brand new from the store? Not only in my buckets but in the box stuff we use at work... (about 420 for it)

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally posted by lucas73
Not a Reef Crystals user,but I receive a slight brown residue from my Red Sea Coral Pro after mixing 24 to 48 hours with no ill effects on any of my tank inhabitants.Nor any algae issues associated with the brown residue either.






Ditto. Randy has done more for us hobbyists that have no clue about chemistry than anyone one else in the hobby.
+ 1



__________________

To be honest, and this is my opinion but Randy is a awesome chemist and is great at what he does but I believe there is more to reefing than just chemistry. I mean I have tested this saltwater in our labs at UK and with a Electronic Calcium meter it reads within + or - 20ppm... and how can you PROVE there is no issues related to the brown scum, that is nutrient (go test it) and what does algae feed on? Nutrients... Thats what I mean... The salt may work out to the correct params but the nutrient content in the salt is too high... When tested with a TDS meter the mix comes out to about 550-600ppt. Which is too high for that mix...

[mpoletti]

Originally posted by ChrisKirkland
So mark why am I getting reading of calcium at about 380-400 between an, API, Hagan, and Salfart Test Kits that are brand new from the store? Not only in my buckets but in the box stuff we use at work... (about 420 for it)

I have no idea. I do know that I switched to bag only for all of my salts as I was getting different reading from the top of the bucket to the bottom of the bucket.

FWIW, The last time I tested RC, it tested out at 400, 12, 1200 (elos).

I do agree that if you are not happy with the product, then you should switch.

What were the parameters of the residue you tested?

[ChrisKirkland]

The "scum" is a nutrient, which chemical compound is still unknown until we do further chemical analysis. The sediment tests out to be both a silicate and calcium carbonate. However it is composed more of the silicate than the CaCo. Again this is was was found by dissolving the sediment in a solution that calcium carbonate is soluble in.