Sump Advice

Milhouse · 08/05/2009, 08:53 PM

I tried posting this in the DIY forum, but it doesn't seem to get as much action as this one. So I figured I'd give it a shot here.

I'm putting together a 58g build at the moment. Things have slowed down a bit due to plumbing/sump design. I have a 29g tank that I'm going to use for a sump. The skimmer is an I-Tech 100 w/Tunze. The return will be an Oceanrunner 3500...which is a pretty big pump size wise(at least it seems big to me compared to my Mag 7). So that problem I'm currently having is trying to figure out if I really need to put baffles in. I'm just worried that if I put baffles in, the return compartment is gonna be tiny. It's a 30" long tank but the inner dimension is closer to 29". I think I figured the skimmer area to be about 15". So if I added baffles, that would be about 3-4"? The return pump is about 4" wide and the area it would be left with is about 10". Seems kinda small. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill? Would I need to do three baffles? I know going baffle-less isn't ideal because of the skimmer needing consistent water level, but I do have a reef fanatic ATO to hook up as well. Advice?

Shane Hoffman · 08/05/2009, 09:47 PM

10 inches wide is plenty of room for a return section...Im using a 20 long for a sump and my return sectuion is 8 inches by 12 inches...only 9 or 10 inches deep......you wont have alot of evao everyday with a 58 gallon system

sedor · 08/05/2009, 10:05 PM

You don't need to add baffles, but if your don't your going to have problems with microbubbles, and you won't be able to add a fuge. Its better to do it now, because down the road its not going to be easy to remove the tank, put baffles in and wait 24 hours for the silicone to cure, and then if you have a leak wait another 24 hours.

Its really easy to make a sump, just find a local glass cutter and get prices on your baffles and make sure they polish the edges (they won't charge for this) then just silicone them in.

Milhouse · 08/05/2009, 10:51 PM

What about just doing two baffles instead? It's just that the OR 3500 looks so damn big. And no worries about adding a refugium...there's no way I'd have room for that.

edit: Out of curiosity, when ordering the glass for the baffles, is there a standard amount of "give" that people use when ordering the glass? How much smaller should I make it then the inside measurement?

Toddrtrex · 08/05/2009, 11:41 PM

I wouldn't go with 2 baffles, it will defeat the purpose of them. Go with 3 -- over/under/over.

I would still try to have a little fuge area if you can, could just throw some some live rock in there and maybe some marco.

All of my sumps that I have made (( 10g 20Hg & 30g )) I used acrylic (( 1/4 inch )) for all the baffles, it will stay in place with silicone -- my oldest sump is 7+ years old. Acrylic is easy to cut and IMO easier to use.

wantacookie · 08/06/2009, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milhouse
What about just doing two baffles instead? It's just that the OR 3500 looks so damn big. And no worries about adding a refugium...there's no way I'd have room for that.

edit: Out of curiosity, when ordering the glass for the baffles, is there a standard amount of "give" that people use when ordering the glass? How much smaller should I make it then the inside measurement?

For my 29 gallon sump I had the glass for the baffles cut to 11 5/8 inches wide. Perfect fit.

noahm · 08/06/2009, 06:33 AM

I just had baffles cut yesterday for a 40g breeder sump. I just told the guy they needed to be as close as possible but absolutely not bigger. Silicone will take care of 1/8" easily.

15" is a big skimmer footprint for a tank that size.

mullinsd2 · 08/06/2009, 08:39 AM

I'd say make room for the refugium if you can. It doesn't have to be huge. I aware by mine and it is cheaply put together.

Milhouse · 08/06/2009, 11:14 AM

Todd, good to hear about the acrylic. I'd rather use the acrylic because that would give me more "do it yourself" ability. I can cut my own glass but I'd need to have someone polish it for me. Out of curiousity, how did you cut the acrylic and where did you get the 1/4"? I used to run a frame shop, we'd score it and snap it. Did you do that or use a saw?

And my skimmer doesn't need a ton of area...I just don't want it to be a tight squeeze. I might need to take the skimmer out of my current sump and put it in there again to check for size. It probably doesn't need more than about 10x12 for the I-tech...but I wanted extra space. I might also decide to use the Mag 7 I have instead of the OR 3500. The OR is 900gph vs 700gph. I just don't know that I want to dedicate that much space to the pump inside the sump(seriously, I think this thing is HUGE in comparison to the Mag).

Toddrtrex · 08/06/2009, 11:20 AM

I got my 1/4 from Home Depot, and yea, I just scored it a couple of times, and snapped it, was pretty easy. One thing to remember is that most tanks (( your sump )) have silicone along the bottom, so you might have to cut off the corners of the baffles to get you a better fit.

Like this,

Actually I think both of those pumps are going to be too much for a 58. I have an external pump on my (( Velocity T5, 650 GPH )), and have to have it throttled back, about 1/3. Those overflows are only rated for 600 GPH, and it seems more like 500 to me. I would shoot for a 500 GPH pump, and with headloss should be perfect, or just throttle back a bit. Plus, I am of the school of thought of slower flow through the sump.

Milhouse · 08/06/2009, 12:04 PM

I'll have to look at my Home Depot. I bought a piece of acrylic once to make a "top" for my betta tank at work. I did the score and snap method....didn't work too well for me but that had more to do with the fact that I was using a safety razor, lol. The problem is that the acrylic I used had to be less than 1/4". It was for picture frames. The reason I say that is that it bows like there is no tomorrow.

As far as the flow..well, my tank wasn't predrilled so I'm using a glass-holes overflow on it. It's a 700gph, 1 1/2 overflow. So I'm sure it can handle the flow. I'm using the Mag 7 right now on my 37g Oceanic. The sump is much smaller, but it's fed in to a SCWD. I'll probably just end up trying the mag 7. That should give me much more room in my sump. Now I just need to figure out how I should set it up. I'm assuming if I put the refugium in there I'd "T" off the return to the refugium? That would use some of the water too.

Klaus777 · 08/06/2009, 01:22 PM

One tank I have is a 35 gallon display with another 35 gallon as a sump/fuge. I only use two baffles between each of the three sections with no micro bubble issues (they are also glass and were not polished, just safety edged which saves cash and 1/16" less than the inside distance for front to back length). I also use a SCWD powered by a mag 9.5 with a glass holes 700gph overflow. And the fuge gets all that flow through it and works great. Had I plumbed it better I could have used an in sump skimmer rather than a HOB.

Milhouse · 08/07/2009, 04:05 PM

So does anyone have a good layout I could use if I decided to add a refugium? Not 100% sure on that but I am leaning towards using my Mag 7 instead. That should free up some room.

Toddrtrex · 08/07/2009, 04:09 PM

Here is my 30 sump for my 75 (( the baffles are hidden by the return pipes )) from RIGHT to Left -- skimmer/info baffles fuge single baffle with slots return section.

And my 20 high sump for my 58 (( same layout as the 30 ))

Milhouse · 08/07/2009, 04:42 PM

So I'm assuming it's 3 baffles(over, under, over), then the refugium, then 1 baffle(is that one a little lower than the "over" baffles?), then the return section? I'm gonna hit up Lowes/HD this weekend for some acrylic and try to figure this thing out. I really need to have it plumbed and ready to go this weekend. Thanks again.

Toddrtrex · 08/07/2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milhouse
So I'm assuming it's 3 baffles(over, under, over), then the refugium, then 1 baffle(is that one a little lower than the "over" baffles?), then the return section? I'm gonna hit up Lowes/HD this weekend for some acrylic and try to figure this thing out. I really need to have it plumbed and ready to go this weekend. Thanks again.

You are correct. And here is a close up of the one baffle b/t the fuge and return section and the slots I cut. The PVC shelf is to hold a bag of carbon.

Milhouse · 08/07/2009, 05:38 PM

So the last baffle between the refugium and the return area isn't actually lower than the other "over" baffles, it's just got teeth cut in it? So is there any advantage of doing that vs maybe making it about 1/4" lower for example? Thanks again. You are a gentleman and a scholar!

Toddrtrex · 08/07/2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milhouse
So the last baffle between the refugium and the return area isn't actually lower than the other "over" baffles, it's just got teeth cut in it? So is there any advantage of doing that vs maybe making it about 1/4" lower for example? Thanks again. You are a gentleman and a scholar!

"You are a gentleman and a scholar!" Thanks, but you obviously don't know me all that well.

Yea, that is right, the teeth set the water level in that section (( unless there is extra water in the sump )). I want to say that the water level in the fuge is a 1/2 lower then the last baffle b/t the skimmer/inflow and fuge section. There reason wasn't any reason for that height difference, it just ended up that way. And the teeth/slots are there just to help prevent any macro algae from getting in to the return pump.

Milhouse · 08/08/2009, 11:34 AM

So are there any real disadvantages of having the refugium right after the skimmer section? I've seen some that have the skimmer, return, and then refugium(with the refugium fed from the return pump). I'm just curious what the advantage of doing it that way is. I dunno, doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me. I saw on Melev's site he had a 20g design. It was skimmer first, then refugium. But the refugium section had a small acrylic divider(not really a baffle since it was just used to keep the sand out of the return pump) and some eggcrate. So essentially the refugium and return are all one big section. This kinda seems like a good set up to me. Comments?

08/05/2009, 08:53 PM	#1
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	Sump Advice I tried posting this in the DIY forum, but it doesn't seem to get as much action as this one. So I figured I'd give it a shot here. I'm putting together a 58g build at the moment. Things have slowed down a bit due to plumbing/sump design. I have a 29g tank that I'm going to use for a sump. The skimmer is an I-Tech 100 w/Tunze. The return will be an Oceanrunner 3500...which is a pretty big pump size wise(at least it seems big to me compared to my Mag 7). So that problem I'm currently having is trying to figure out if I really need to put baffles in. I'm just worried that if I put baffles in, the return compartment is gonna be tiny. It's a 30" long tank but the inner dimension is closer to 29". I think I figured the skimmer area to be about 15". So if I added baffles, that would be about 3-4"? The return pump is about 4" wide and the area it would be left with is about 10". Seems kinda small. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill? Would I need to do three baffles? I know going baffle-less isn't ideal because of the skimmer needing consistent water level, but I do have a reef fanatic ATO to hook up as well. Advice?

08/05/2009, 09:47 PM	#2
Shane Hoffman Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 45 mins from Chicago Posts: 2,009	10 inches wide is plenty of room for a return section...Im using a 20 long for a sump and my return sectuion is 8 inches by 12 inches...only 9 or 10 inches deep......you wont have alot of evao everyday with a 58 gallon system __________________ A wise man once said "Never play leap frog with a unicorn" Current Tank Info: 150 gallon glass with 20 gallon sump, 175lbs of coraline covered live rock, EuroReef skimmer rated for 250gal, 25watt Aqua UV sterilizer, Fluval FX5, Hamilton 3x250watt MH, 160 watt Blue actinic....Mixed reef

08/05/2009, 10:05 PM	#3
sedor Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 4,689	You don't need to add baffles, but if your don't your going to have problems with microbubbles, and you won't be able to add a fuge. Its better to do it now, because down the road its not going to be easy to remove the tank, put baffles in and wait 24 hours for the silicone to cure, and then if you have a leak wait another 24 hours. Its really easy to make a sump, just find a local glass cutter and get prices on your baffles and make sure they polish the edges (they won't charge for this) then just silicone them in. __________________ Ryan

08/05/2009, 11:41 PM	#5
Toddrtrex Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Carol Stream, IL Posts: 23,162	I wouldn't go with 2 baffles, it will defeat the purpose of them. Go with 3 -- over/under/over. I would still try to have a little fuge area if you can, could just throw some some live rock in there and maybe some marco. All of my sumps that I have made (( 10g 20Hg & 30g )) I used acrylic (( 1/4 inch )) for all the baffles, it will stay in place with silicone -- my oldest sump is 7+ years old. Acrylic is easy to cut and IMO easier to use. __________________ Click my name and then "visit toddrtrex's homepage" for tank pictures Current Tank Info: 210g reef and 65g reef

08/06/2009, 11:20 AM	#10
Toddrtrex Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Carol Stream, IL Posts: 23,162	I got my 1/4 from Home Depot, and yea, I just scored it a couple of times, and snapped it, was pretty easy. One thing to remember is that most tanks (( your sump )) have silicone along the bottom, so you might have to cut off the corners of the baffles to get you a better fit. Like this, Actually I think both of those pumps are going to be too much for a 58. I have an external pump on my (( Velocity T5, 650 GPH )), and have to have it throttled back, about 1/3. Those overflows are only rated for 600 GPH, and it seems more like 500 to me. I would shoot for a 500 GPH pump, and with headloss should be perfect, or just throttle back a bit. Plus, I am of the school of thought of slower flow through the sump. __________________ Click my name and then "visit toddrtrex's homepage" for tank pictures Current Tank Info: 210g reef and 65g reef

08/05/2009, 10:51 PM	#4
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	What about just doing two baffles instead? It's just that the OR 3500 looks so damn big. And no worries about adding a refugium...there's no way I'd have room for that. edit: Out of curiosity, when ordering the glass for the baffles, is there a standard amount of "give" that people use when ordering the glass? How much smaller should I make it then the inside measurement?

08/06/2009, 06:33 AM	#7
noahm Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,736	I just had baffles cut yesterday for a 40g breeder sump. I just told the guy they needed to be as close as possible but absolutely not bigger. Silicone will take care of 1/8" easily. 15" is a big skimmer footprint for a tank that size.

08/06/2009, 08:39 AM	#8
mullinsd2 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 753	I'd say make room for the refugium if you can. It doesn't have to be huge. I aware by mine and it is cheaply put together.

08/06/2009, 11:14 AM	#9
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	Todd, good to hear about the acrylic. I'd rather use the acrylic because that would give me more "do it yourself" ability. I can cut my own glass but I'd need to have someone polish it for me. Out of curiousity, how did you cut the acrylic and where did you get the 1/4"? I used to run a frame shop, we'd score it and snap it. Did you do that or use a saw? And my skimmer doesn't need a ton of area...I just don't want it to be a tight squeeze. I might need to take the skimmer out of my current sump and put it in there again to check for size. It probably doesn't need more than about 10x12 for the I-tech...but I wanted extra space. I might also decide to use the Mag 7 I have instead of the OR 3500. The OR is 900gph vs 700gph. I just don't know that I want to dedicate that much space to the pump inside the sump(seriously, I think this thing is HUGE in comparison to the Mag).

08/06/2009, 12:04 PM	#11
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	I'll have to look at my Home Depot. I bought a piece of acrylic once to make a "top" for my betta tank at work. I did the score and snap method....didn't work too well for me but that had more to do with the fact that I was using a safety razor, lol. The problem is that the acrylic I used had to be less than 1/4". It was for picture frames. The reason I say that is that it bows like there is no tomorrow. As far as the flow..well, my tank wasn't predrilled so I'm using a glass-holes overflow on it. It's a 700gph, 1 1/2 overflow. So I'm sure it can handle the flow. I'm using the Mag 7 right now on my 37g Oceanic. The sump is much smaller, but it's fed in to a SCWD. I'll probably just end up trying the mag 7. That should give me much more room in my sump. Now I just need to figure out how I should set it up. I'm assuming if I put the refugium in there I'd "T" off the return to the refugium? That would use some of the water too.

08/06/2009, 01:22 PM	#12
Klaus777 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kitchener, ontario Posts: 244	One tank I have is a 35 gallon display with another 35 gallon as a sump/fuge. I only use two baffles between each of the three sections with no micro bubble issues (they are also glass and were not polished, just safety edged which saves cash and 1/16" less than the inside distance for front to back length). I also use a SCWD powered by a mag 9.5 with a glass holes 700gph overflow. And the fuge gets all that flow through it and works great. Had I plumbed it better I could have used an in sump skimmer rather than a HOB.

08/07/2009, 04:05 PM	#13
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	So does anyone have a good layout I could use if I decided to add a refugium? Not 100% sure on that but I am leaning towards using my Mag 7 instead. That should free up some room.

08/07/2009, 04:09 PM	#14
Toddrtrex Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Carol Stream, IL Posts: 23,162	Here is my 30 sump for my 75 (( the baffles are hidden by the return pipes )) from RIGHT to Left -- skimmer/info baffles fuge single baffle with slots return section. And my 20 high sump for my 58 (( same layout as the 30 )) __________________ Click my name and then "visit toddrtrex's homepage" for tank pictures Current Tank Info: 210g reef and 65g reef

08/07/2009, 04:42 PM	#15
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	So I'm assuming it's 3 baffles(over, under, over), then the refugium, then 1 baffle(is that one a little lower than the "over" baffles?), then the return section? I'm gonna hit up Lowes/HD this weekend for some acrylic and try to figure this thing out. I really need to have it plumbed and ready to go this weekend. Thanks again.

08/07/2009, 05:38 PM	#17
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	So the last baffle between the refugium and the return area isn't actually lower than the other "over" baffles, it's just got teeth cut in it? So is there any advantage of doing that vs maybe making it about 1/4" lower for example? Thanks again. You are a gentleman and a scholar!

08/08/2009, 11:34 AM	#19
Milhouse Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 722	So are there any real disadvantages of having the refugium right after the skimmer section? I've seen some that have the skimmer, return, and then refugium(with the refugium fed from the return pump). I'm just curious what the advantage of doing it that way is. I dunno, doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me. I saw on Melev's site he had a 20g design. It was skimmer first, then refugium. But the refugium section had a small acrylic divider(not really a baffle since it was just used to keep the sand out of the return pump) and some eggcrate. So essentially the refugium and return are all one big section. This kinda seems like a good set up to me. Comments?