No Sick Fish, No QT, No water change

[thrlride]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
rather than just trying to debunk whats been stated with accusations. "The best defense is a good offense" would work wonders here.

I'd have a hard time responding objectionably if I was the owner of NSF after reading some of the attacks here.

[cduran02]

Responding objectionably is a must if a company is to show that they are profesionals and not just some hacks that mixed some stuff and call it a cure for everything.

[Anthony Calfo]

charming sig line, thrlride:

"Why do they call it an asteroid when it's outside the hemisphere, but call it a hemorrhoid when it's in your butt?"

as it pertains us (all) pondering each others' insight/perspective/maturity on the posts we make

"I'd have a hard time responding objectionably if I was the owner of NSF after reading some of the attacks here."

In the words of Don Dewey, "You may be right."

[Anthony Calfo]

Hmmm... rereading my own last post and some others recently, I am wondering how useful it is (the spin of the thread)?

I will make a concerted effort to stay more on topic.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
In the words of Don Dewey, "You may be right."

You are showing your age (in aquarium years). I am betting most people are saying to themselves, Don who?

[thrlride]

Before we get back on topic, I think I got that quote in my sig line in email from someone and found it humerous.

I agree this chemical concoction is probably too good to be true and the way they go about keeping the ingredients secret goes over just as good as... well zeovit. I also agree cduran02, that they need to respond in a professional manner if to be taken seriously. I guess I feel they are now labeled as guilty before given the chance to prove innocence.

I'll hide in the background now.

[dcoufal]

Five pages before the "z" word came up..... pretty good.

Dwain

[thrlride]

LOL

The tone is the same though. For the record, I have used neither.

[puter]

NSF (Tyler?) -

Let me give you an opportunity to make, perhaps, more constructive comments:

First, can you describe how your product came to be? Are you a hobbiest, biologist, chemist, LFS owner?

Second, can you disclose some things your product does NOT contain? For instance, I'd like to know if, in using your product, I'd be adding 1) Malachite Green, 2) Formalin, 3) Vinegar, or 4) Pepper extract to my tank?

I don't think anybody would hold it against you if you're a hobbiest, who did a bunch of research (reading), developed a list of potentially effective ingredients, and created a concoction of those ingredients that you believe is effective against ICH... as long as you're up front about it.

Then, we can make a decision to use or not use your product on that basis. Surely, you understand that having a website with no physical address listed, no principal officers, no substantive product information, and misquoted testimonials raises serious credibility questions?

[cduran02]

Originally posted by puter
NSF (Tyler?) -

Surely, you understand that having an anonymously registered website, with no physical address listed, no principal officers

Man, I completely forgot to do a whois on their site, thats usually the first thing I do on a questionable site.

[puter]

Actually, Tucows didn't pass that info through to the registrar I checked from... it isn't anonymous, my mistake and I edited my post to reflect that.

[Jamesurq]

Anthony,

Have you ever used Flatworm Exit?

[puter]

From: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flatwrmfaq3.htm

If it's Planaria, do you recommend the Flatworm Exit product from Salifert? [I would never recommend it or anything like it. No such product has been demonstrated to my satisfaction to kill one nuisance invertebrate while not harming some others of like kind but desirable.]...I read a lot of thread on RC and almost people didn't have any problem with this product.[does the product list its ingredients? If not, I'm not inclined to use or recommend any products if unknown composition on the live creatures in my care...Anthony]

Anthony's comments bolded. (Not that the credibility of one product reflects on another...)

[cduran02]

Ok, did a little research on the administrative contact listed for nsf website. Didnt find anything useful in idetifying the origing of NSF all I found out was that he once rented out a house to college students and is or was into kite flying.

BTW, I found this stuff by simply googling the email address and phone number listed under the administrative contact.

[Jamesurq]

Originally posted by puter
From: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flatwrmfaq3.htm


Anthony's comments bolded. (Not that the credibility of one product reflects on another...)

Thank you for digging that up and saving Anthony the time of repeating it

An equal opportunity skeptic - good to hear.

[Anthony Calfo]

heehee... yes, an equal opportunity skeptic indeed

...and I will say too that Habib (Salifert) is one of the most intelligent and affable human beings I have ever known. I have tremedous regard for him inside and outside the industry. And I have very high regard for his product line at large.

But friend or no friend... I will not use a product in my aquarium that I do not understand or know the ingredients. Thats my choice as a consumer.

And as a mentor, I aspire to be honest to a fault. I expect to be regarded as opinionated (I am) but not unfairly biased (I try not to be).

Another difference here too is that Habib does not shill or plaster testimonials, violate the UA etc to advance his product line. Instead, his products stand easily on their own merit and are enhanced by his industry reputation.

IMO... NSF, me and anyone else in the hobby/industry would do well to abide by that strategy and ethic.

Anth-

[GTR]

cduran02... It took me a while to learn so only about half the domains I have registered list any owner or partner as the Adminstrative Contact.

SteveU

[Jamesurq]

Well there goes that joke

[kevin2000]

Walks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck, looks like a Duck .. chances are its not an Eagle. There is sufficient evidence within this thread alone to question the marketing practices of this Company ... the old adage of "consumer beware" still makes sense to me.

[riptidesreef]

Dwain,

When I said we wanted to be left out of this, I meant just that. I would prefer to not find myself or my business name dragged into these discussions where people argue tirelessly over proof or lack of proof that something may or may not work. There is no way for this discussion to ever end agreeably for either side. One person says it works great, another says it couldn't possibly, both without evidence.

I finally received an email from an RC member asking me my opinion. Not a customer of mine or anyone I've ever spoken to previously. I explained, in detail, what experience I've had with NSF and the product and said "Feel free to post this email...but we would like to be left out this completely". The entire email may have answered what I meant by that, not just the last sentence. Here is the email in it's entirety:

Honestly, I cannot remember it has been so long ago. We dont focus much on fish and the ones we do are normally farm raised so we rarely have a problem with ich. I do remember being referred to this person selling the "transit" shipping treatment. I ordered a bottle as a test and he included a bottle of
the ich treatment for free. All he asked me was that if it worked well to let people know. He was a very pleasant individual and they did expedite shipping without my request. I know that we had a pair of whipfin wrasses that we bought from an outside wholesaler and they didnt look so hot. We used the ich treatment. One died and one lived. It has been months since then and I still have the one whipfin. At that time, that particular fish system was connected to a sump that shared with a coral system and no corals suffered. I cannot be certain if the ich treatment worked or if the whipfin that survived just fought it off. Likewise, I use the "transit" on every fish I ship and have not lost any fish that were delivered on time. Is that
because I'm using the transit or because I use plenty of water and oxygen in every bag and only ship hardy, farm raised fish? I dont know but it hasnt hurt them.

Like I said before, the person I dealt with was very nice and helpful. I sincerely do not want to be a part of a "bash session" on RC. I do remember writing an email right after I received the order from them and thanked them for the fast shipping. I do not recall writing the part about the fairy wrasse but that doesnt mean I didnt write it, I just dont recall. I would like to draw attention to the fact that some of these people posting have most likely never used the product.

Feel free to post this on RC. We would like to be left out of this
completely!!!

Perhaps I should've said "We would've like to have been left out of this completely". I agree this is a superb way to exchange information but when it seems to become personal, with no acceptable outcome, then I think it's time to move on to more productive topics.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by riptidesreef

Feel free to post this on RC. We would like to be left out of this
completely!!!

Well in your next life you might think twice before you give explicit permission to quote you on the internet.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by riptidesreef
There is no way for this discussion to ever end agreeably for either side. One person says it works great, another says it couldn't possibly, both without evidence.

I don't think you properly grasp our (if I may be so bold to speak for the group here) objections. We are not saying it can't work. On the contrary, I don't know nearly enough about the product to even hazard a guess as to whether or not it might work. Instead, we are simply (and repeatedly) asking for proof that it is safe and effective.

[riptidesreef]

I understand exactly what you are saying Steven. But many of the previous posts have not been that simple question. Take kevin2000's sarcastic response to my post for prime example. I think this is a great way to exchange information but then it seems to take a sour turn here and there. Before you know it, we're off topic and some people resort to taking cheap shots. I wouldn't mind knowing what's in the stuff myself. lol

[NSF]

Anthony,



I have no intentions of breaking the rules, but help me out. Aaron23 said that we lied, and made up the testimonial. How am I supposed to clear the air and PROVE that we did nothing to alter the testimonial, but to show the actual testimonial as a picture of my inbox. It has shows the date, time stamp, everything…. written directly from Mr. Brock. There is no way that I could change it. I then backed it up even further with a letter from Mr. Brock talking about the original testimonial that he wrote. I do all of this, using the facts, and then I am told that I only did it to advertise. If I was trying to advertise, I would post my website each time under my name, and put up a recent flyer promoting our products.



I don’t know how to give a better response, than what I did. I used the facts, and facts alone.



That goes for all comments made up about N.S.F. How do I give appropriate responses to these questions, if you are going to delete them each time and say that I am advertising…I am wasting my time responding to questions, when my answers are deleted?



Thrlride- The ingredients are proprietary information to protect our investment from other manufactures. I wouldn’t care if you or any other individual new how we developed our products and what was in it. The reason that they are not being released is to prevent other manufacturers from stealing our ideas.



Puter- Thanks for direct questions, and being respectful. I did not make the product. 2 chemists worked on the product for roughly 3 years before we began to sell. The ich medicine is composed of 11 different ingredients. If I made the medicine I would be more than happy to take credit for it. I can’t. The complexity involved in creating the formula is more advanced than most chemists could handle or understand. It isn’t malachite green or formalin. It isn’t some concoction that we made in the basement using vinegar and peppers.



I wish I could give out the names of business’s that use our medicine and there contact information. If you heard the things they tell me you wouldn’t ever think twice about the medicine. I just get off the phone with Jud McCracken. Some of you may know who he is. He has been in the industry for a long time, and knows a lot about reef systems. I met him at MACNA, in D.C. this year. He was working in the Carib Sea booth. At that time he told me that he had used my medication on 3 different tanks infected with ich. He told me it worked great each time. After speaking with him on the phone he told me that he used it one other time since then. 4 successful treatments with one bottle! I called him to ask if it was ok to leave his email address on the thread so others could email him. His email address is: declevis@hotmail.com. When someone emails him please forward the email onto the thread, so every one can read it.





I sincerely apologize to any one that took offense from reading my previous response, but stand in my shoes and you might respond very sternly as well if you were being spoken to, the way I was. Some users noted it. Thank you.

thanks riptide for the post. I sincerely appreciate it!

[NicoleC]

Tyler,

Do you have the results and methodology of a controlled scientific study that proves the effects of the medicine? If you spent 3 years creating it, I would think that some sort of series of controlled studies to test the effectiveness of the product MUST have been done. Said studies would then cumulate in a study that shows the effectiveness of the final product -- and would be far more persuasive than testimonials.

If you haven't done those studies, how did you finalize the formula? And if you have done them, why have you not shared them? Granted you may need to change the names somewhat to "Ingredient X," "Formula Y," etc.

Clearly in independant study would carry much more weight, but any study -- proved the methodlogy was clearly explained -- would be a valuable tool to prospective customers. And might, in fact, shut up the critics.