seachem reef salt

[FindingSalt]

Anyone Try this salt? Im thinking of changing from Oceanic to Seachem. Can you just change salts or do you have to mix them and little my little change over?

[VCoo71]

i made the change about a month and a half ago from oceanic to seachem and couldnt be happier.....ca and alk finally in balance
i havent had any probs just doing water changes with strictly seachem

charlie

[drock59]

how about Mg?

[Illusion]

Seachem uses an Abnormal amount of Borate in their salt mix to help buffer the pH.. That and That alone pushes me away from using it... I personally use Oceanpure and Its nice solid and stable in all aspects so far... Corals love it as well..

James

[dphins]

What is wrong with abnormal amounts of Borate? (Just asking and not attacking.)

[MSHUR]

Originally posted by dphinsx2
What is wrong with abnormal amounts of Borate? (Just asking and not attacking.)

tagging along

[Illusion]

IMO anything Abnormal Is a bad thing... Anything that is purposly added that Is beyond NSW levels... Who knows what the Borate does to the Eco system that we maintain in the long run... Might cause some sort of issues that we wont know about until 2yrs down the Road.. But heck It might not do anything at all... IMO there is no reason to add something way beyond NSW values as God Wanted the levels where they are at for a reason... So I personally Strive to try and keep them the best as possible..

James

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Illusion
Seachem uses an Abnormal amount of Borate in their salt mix to help buffer the pH.. That and That alone pushes me away from using it... I personally use Oceanpure and Its nice solid and stable in all aspects so far... Corals love it as well..

James

I went away from Seachem for the same reason....... but now they have a new formula that lowered the amount of borate. Actually, in this same forum there's people commenting on the good results with the new salt.

Next week I'm receiving a bag of the new Reef Salt to try it myself.

[drock59]

I was considering oceanpure and seachem but I think I am swinnging to oceanpure becuase of the great levels, price and people having good results. I guess i will keep my eyes posted to sechem salt threads.

[DMK]

thinking of switching from crystal seas salt to seachem reef salt. anyone use this salt? i'm convinced my STS and bleaching issues i have had are due mostly to crystal seas.

[Lunchbucket]

Travis has just started using it maybe 1-2months ago. he wasn't pleased w/ the values comming from his Salifert test kits...but i guess the seachem ones they sent him tested ok.

maybe talk to him

Lunchbucket

[DMK]

i will be starting zeo soon. seems like alot of those guys use either that, IO or oceanic. i'm disgusted w/ crystal seas.

[DMK]

i just sent a pm 2 him. thanks. do u mean he wasn't pleased before he started seachem? what brand do u use?

[CAreefer]

I have been using SeaChem Reef salt for around 6 weeks. I just ordered a Salifert Boron test kit and should receive it on wednesday or so. I will post the results when I have them. Just so it's out there, I have 340 net gallons and change 40 per week. I would think it would be building up if its a problem. I will also test a fresh mixed batch.

CAReefer

[Lunchbucket]

he was pleased will reef crystals. but he was ordering a bunch on dry goods and wanted only one order...so he tried reef salt. i think he is going back to RC but i am not for sure

Lunchbucket

[Fatboy]

CAreefer,

I'll be waiting for those results.......

Last year, I made a couple of questions to the Seachem guys and these were their answers.

" Borate is still used as part of the buffering ability. You will also find the same superior buffering ability in our new Marine Salt (due in part to borate). Borate helps to maintain an elevated pH and also is a player in ionic competition helping to maintain calcium in solution. The major differences between the 2 are slightly elevated levels of Ca, Sr & I in the Reef Salt. "

" Yes, the borate in our Reef Salt is about 2 - 3x NSW depending on the SG you mix to. Borate at this level is not toxic. There was an article written referencing borate levels of 28 ppm (6x NSW) potentially causing problems in 2 species. We do not contain near that much, in fact it is half as much or less depending on the SG mixed to. Factually, the increased amount of borate increases calcium solubility and aids in maintaining elevated pH levels....both pluses. "

" Borate increases the apparent solubility of calcium through ion paring, a “common ion� effect. The classic example of this effect involves the introduction of sulfate into a calcium-containing system. The pairing of the sulfate with some of the calcium decreases the amount of calcium available for precipitation in the form of calcium carbonate, thus increasing the apparent solubility of calcium carbonate.

There is a mountain of evidence to support the concept of ion pairing, and some of the best comes from manufacturers of water treatment chemicals for industrial boilers. One over-predicts the tendency of a process water to form a calcium scale if one uses just the saturation index (the ratio of the product of ionic activities to the solubility product), but accuracy of scale prediction is improved when some form of ion pairing is included in the model.

If we restrict our attention to borate, and its interactions with calcium and magnesium, I suggest the following two references. The first is Millero’s Chemical Oceanography, 2nd Ed. I recommend this book with some reservations, as there are a number of errors in the relevant chapter, chapter four, that cannot all be typographical errors. Some are trivial (e.g., labeling calcium as a transition metal, p. 139), some must be typos (listing the dielectric constant of SO2 as 140, when it is in fact 14.1, p. 127), and yet others require explanations (again, p. 127, not specifying the vastly different temperatures that produce the dielectric constants he quotes.) I could understand the presence of these errors in the first printing of a first edition, but I am alarmed that they are present in the second edition. This leads me to treat the data that Millero presents as provisional data, needing verification.

If, however, we accept the data in Table 4.6, p. 154, as correct, we see that the ion pairing constant for CaB(OH)4 is on the same order as (in fact, is slightly greater than) the ion pairing constant for CaSO4 (13.28 vs. 11.04), which indicates that borate should play a role similar to sulfate in increasing apparent calcium solubility.

The second reference I recommend only to the serious scientist who has the time to go through the details of various ion pairing and specific ion interaction models. It is J. M. Simonson, R. N. Roy, D. Mrad, P. Lord, L. N. Roy, and D. A. Johnson, “The Thermodynamics of Aqueous Borate Solutions. II. Mixtures of Boric Acid with Calcium or Magnesium Borate and Chloride,� J. Solution Chem. Vol. 17 No. 5, 435-446 (1988). The authors work with a variety of ionic strengths and solution temperatures, and determine the parameters necessary to use Pitzer’s virial expansion for Ca(B(OH)4)2 and Mg(B(OH)4)2. They compare the results of Pitzer’s expansion with other methods, and reach the conclusion that the b(2) parameter (usually set equal to zero in most models) must be non-zero in the case of calcium and magnesium borates. They attribute this to the presence of the CaB(OH)4+ and MgB(OH)4+ species.

Taken together, these two references lead me to conclude that calcium-borate ion pairing, while not overwhelming, is certainly not negligible, and that it lends a measurable benefit in terms of calcium solubility in a reef/saltwater environment. The magnitude of the benefit is about the same as the magnitude of the benefit from calcium-sulfate ion pairing.

The final question you had concerns the absence of calcium-borate pairing in Millero’s pie chart. That would be figure 4.28 on p. 157. The figure below it, figure 4.29, also on p. 157, “The speciation of anions in seawater,� contains the missing calcium-borate complex. "

[Theace50]

I use it and love it

[DMK]

i don't know what's up w/ crystal seas. when i set up tank 3 years ago it was supposedely "the " salt. since then i haven't heard anything positive on it, and i have had some problems w/ STN, while all parameters on point and stable. i'm just wondering if i switch, is it going to throw tank off?

[Fatboy]

Same subject been discussed here.....

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=738680

[opihi]

Originally posted by Illusion
IMO anything Abnormal Is a bad thing... Anything that is purposly added that Is beyond NSW levels... Who knows what the Borate does to the Eco system that we maintain in the long run... Might cause some sort of issues that we wont know about until 2yrs down the Road.. But heck It might not do anything at all... IMO there is no reason to add something way beyond NSW values as God Wanted the levels where they are at for a reason... So I personally Strive to try and keep them the best as possible..

James--
this is not necessarily a response to your comment above, as you have a valid point. i just wanted to mention that the make up of most, if not all, artificial salt mixes are drastically different from NSW.

here are a pair of articles that try to explain:

Advanced Aquarist: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study Part II

Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study Part II

[geo]

This thread has been merged.

This thread has been moved to the current forum.

[Illusion]

yes I am aware of the differences from NSW values to ASW values... I still feel that No directly added elements beyond NSW values is needed nor should it be done.. The closer I can keep my tank to NSW the better I feel... Extra Borate, Extra Mg, Extra Ca (oceanic levels) Is all just bogus... Why would you want to add an Element beyond NSW values on purpose... We all have to deal with the Elements that we have no control over but why deal with Elements put in deliberatly by a mfg when It beyond NSW values... Their claim as to better buffering capabilities Is a joke as well.. I am sure It helps but in a properly maintained Reef tank you shouldnt have issues with the buffering anyways... I am not knocking Seachem... I use a few of their products however I wont use their Salt due to the borate Levels.. Same reason why I moved away from Oceanic... I dont want the 600+ppm of CA and the 1600ppm of Mg... Its not needed in these levels why not shoot for 450 or 500 for Ca and 1300ppm for Mg at NSW salinity? Seems more logical... Anyone running at posted Sg levels on the packaging is more than Likely not running a reef tank as 1.023 is a bit low for most avid reefers...

James

[alrha]

Originally posted by Fatboy
I went away from Seachem for the same reason....... but now they have a new formula that lowered the amount of borate. Actually, in this same forum there's people commenting on the good results with the new salt.
Next week I'm receiving a bag of the new Reef Salt to try it myself.

Seachem's site shows that both "Reef Salts" (old and new) have 16 ppm Boron.

New Salt (Purple)
http://www.seachem.com/products/pro...ReefSalt05.html

Old salt (Blue)
http://www.seachem.com/products/pro...s/Reefsalt.html

[CAreefer]

From SeaChem site
Composition of Seachem ReefSaltâ„¢


Ion Concentration (ppm)
Chloride 19336
Sodium 10752
Sulfate 2657
Magnesium 1317
Potassium 421
Calcium 442
Carbonate/Bicarbonate 142
Strontium 9.5
Boron 16
Bromide 64
Iodide 0.060
Lithium 0.3
Silicon <0.1
Iron 0.0098
Copper 0.0003
Nickel <0.015
Zinc 0.0107
Manganese 0.0023
Molybdenum 0.0098
Cobalt 0.0004
Vanadium <0.015
Selenium <0.019
Rubidium 0.118
Barium <0.04

Well, testing is completed. First a few params,

Tank

Sg 1.025

CA 425

Alk 8.0

Mg 1280

Temp 77

Ph 8.07

The titration of the tests says 1 drop = .5 ppm boron. I titrated 20 drops 1 at a time swirling 10 seconds between drops into each of the two samples equaling 10 ppm boron. I never even saw a hint of the requisite color change.

I didn't run the test to color change to try and make the test last. After reading that, I will test the tank water only to find the actual value for a baseline.

The fresh mixed batch was mixed to 1.025 sg. Keep in mind that the sample was not at tank temp nor had it been aerated. I will mix the 40 gallons for the weekly water change tommorrow and test it after 24 hrs. Will be at temp and "aged"

I tested samples of both, tank and FRESHLY mixed salt.
I stopped at 10 ppm on both samples.
I just ran a test on a tank sample to completion and got a result of 18 ppm boron. 4x above NSW levels.

I would have to guess that the fresh mixed would have easily equalled that and probably gone closer to 20 ppm. Again, I will test a batch of properly mixed, heated and aerated on friday or so.

CAReefer

[Fatboy]

Results don't look very promissing on boron...........