Corals not doing good

TREXRC · 02/01/2006, 03:26 PM

Hi I have had my SW for over 1.5 years. For the last 1 year I had a reef set up with beginner corals like mushrooms, Xenia, polyps etc. They thrived well and have had problems for the last month. Some of them died. Some closed up and in process of dying.

Can people help me here?

Set up:

- 46 Gal tank with Odeyssa 192 W PC lighting with 14K and 03 actinic bulbs. Lighting is only 6 months old.
- AquaC hang on skimmer
- 55 pounds of LR
- Emperor 400 filtration
- No sump or refugium

Maintenance:
- 5 gal or 10% water change every week
- Used to age tap water (TDS about 130) for 1 week with powerhead circulation, never had a problem
- Started using RO water from Walmart from 3 months ago and coincidentally that is when I started to see deterioration.
- Instant Ocean Salt used consistently

Additives used:
- Sometimes add Iodine (cap ful) but dont have a test kit for this
- Add Kent's Phytoplankton
- Dont add any other additives

Test results:

- All biological parameters are okay (0 ammonia and nitrites, very low nitrates)
- Ph is 8 - 8.2 during day and at night is about 7.8
- Alkalinity 8 dKH
- Calcium 300 ppm
- SG 1.023

Actions taken with no improvement:
- Changed 10 gal water change each week for the last month.
- Purchased Kent's buffer (white powder) and started to add with each water change

My local reefer friend brought his test kits too and had same results as above.

Can folks suggest what could be happening here?

ronkent · 02/01/2006, 03:33 PM

First off I would not trust the RO from walmart. I used to get mine there and i tested it usually was fine....TDS around 5. One day i tested it and it was 130! Invest in your own RO.

jimbo045 · 02/01/2006, 03:54 PM

Second, try boosting you salinity to around 1.025

Billybeau1 · 02/01/2006, 03:54 PM

I agree with the water and I would work on getting that calcium up too. IO is a fine salt mix (the one I use) but it is low on calcium.

bertoni · 02/01/2006, 05:19 PM

I'd be careful about adding iodine. It doesn't seem to be necessary, and too much can be a problem.

I agree that the SG and Ca are low. I'd target 1.026 and 400 ppm respectively. This article is a good starting point:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

In addition, I'd recommend using a water condition like Amquel Plus with tapwater, if you go back to that. Nowadays many cities treat their water with chloramines, which aging won't remove. Walmart RO might be fine, might not. Hard to say. You could try working on the other parameters first, or you could look into a TDS tester to see how clean the water is, although that might not tell you much.

ronkent · 02/01/2006, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimbo045
Second, try boosting you salinity to around 1.025

Dang!!! Can't believe i missed that!!!

Mariner · 02/01/2006, 06:19 PM

Does anyone think that a pH of 7.8 at night could be part of the problem?
The timing of the change to the Walmart water does sound suspicious, although I've used it for years with no problems.
Mariner

bertoni · 02/01/2006, 07:13 PM

Hmm, missed that part.

More aeration might help the night-time pH. Otherwise, a lime drip might be worth considering. Do you have the Remora or Remora Pro?

Also, raising SG, if you choose to do that, should be done gradually, maybe 0.001 units every other day.

Mariner · 02/01/2006, 08:57 PM

I agree with raising SG slowly. Usually you can just let evaporation do its thing -- don't top off with freshwater until SG is where you want it, then top off with saltwater of desired SG, then top off with freshwater thereafter.
And, I think Bertoni's idea of topping off with a Kalkwasser (limewater) drip at night would solve the night time pH drop; that's what I do, so it must be a good idea

Not sure if SG or pH is really the problem, but correcting both won't hurt.
HTH,
Mariner

TREXRC · 02/02/2006, 12:30 PM

Thanks for all your input and the article too. Here are answers to questions asked...
1. I have AquaC Remora (Not PRO)
2. I do use water conditioner (to remove chloramine) with my tap water on top of aging for 1 week.

My action items from above feedback:
- I will slowly increase SG to 1.0025.
- I will stop using iodine supplement
- I will increase Calcium levels
- Improve night time Ph

Any easy (not Calcium reactor) suggestions on increasing Calcium levels? Any off the shelf suggestions? Is Kalkwasser the answer to increase both my Calcium and maintain Ph?

Should I continue to add the Kent buffer (white powder stuff) during water changes?

Thankfully I found a reefer very close to home. He has an awesome system and is housing my affected Xenia and polyp.

BlueMiniS · 02/02/2006, 01:43 PM

Also, check the level of copper in your tank. I was using small amounts of water from the grocery store with no problem. It had always tested out ok independently, and never saw any big change in the tank. Over time, the level of copper built up, and eventually got to a level high enough that it caused issues in the tank. I guess they use copper piping or something that causes it to be in the supply.

After I discovered the copper, I temporarily moved some of the corals out of the tank into a smaller tank I had. Then I did a big water change, and scrubbing of the tank. I vacuumed the sand and all that good stuff. Eventually, with enough clean water changes, I was able to get the copper out, and my tank is getting back to where it was before the incident.

bertoni · 02/02/2006, 03:32 PM

Limewater will add both alkalinity and calcium to the tank, and help raise pH. In general, it can be used raise calcium only at a very slow rate. If dosed rapidly, the pH in the tank will spike and cause precipitation and other problems.

This article has more information:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

To raise your calcium, I'd recommend a calcium chloride product, like TurboCalcium, or some equivalent. Dow Flake will work, if that's available in your area.

TREXRC · 02/02/2006, 03:34 PM

One more observation on my problem.

During the last 1-2 months of problems I have had significant Coraline Algae build up in the back glass. Is that a cause for concern? Thanks.

bertoni · 02/02/2006, 03:42 PM

That indicates a presence of a fair amount of nutrients available to the coralline. I've been able to reduce coralline growth by growing and harvesting a macroalga. Such an approach might lead to cleaner water, and could reduce the calcium demand.

TREXRC · 03/07/2006, 12:13 PM

Hi all,
I still havent seen a noted improvement. For a brief time the corals looked good and now have started to not look very healthy.

I wanted to throw couple of other things that may cause a problem.

- Carbon: When I fill my carbon cartridges I leave it there for a month or so before replacing it. (It costs $9 to change a pair in my Emperor 400 unit)

- Due to severe coraline aglae build up in the back glass I sometimes try to scrape off an area like 3"x3" or so.

Can the above cause any problems to the corals?

Thanks.

bertoni · 03/07/2006, 06:49 PM

I would find a cheaper way to use carbon. The bulk prices are lower, and a simple filter bag for a few dollars might fit in the Emperor somewhere.

More carbon might help the corals if the problem is toxins in the water.

What are all your water parameters now?

02/01/2006, 03:26 PM	#1
TREXRC Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 195	Corals not doing good Hi I have had my SW for over 1.5 years. For the last 1 year I had a reef set up with beginner corals like mushrooms, Xenia, polyps etc. They thrived well and have had problems for the last month. Some of them died. Some closed up and in process of dying. Can people help me here? Set up: - 46 Gal tank with Odeyssa 192 W PC lighting with 14K and 03 actinic bulbs. Lighting is only 6 months old. - AquaC hang on skimmer - 55 pounds of LR - Emperor 400 filtration - No sump or refugium Maintenance: - 5 gal or 10% water change every week - Used to age tap water (TDS about 130) for 1 week with powerhead circulation, never had a problem - Started using RO water from Walmart from 3 months ago and coincidentally that is when I started to see deterioration. - Instant Ocean Salt used consistently Additives used: - Sometimes add Iodine (cap ful) but dont have a test kit for this - Add Kent's Phytoplankton - Dont add any other additives Test results: - All biological parameters are okay (0 ammonia and nitrites, very low nitrates) - Ph is 8 - 8.2 during day and at night is about 7.8 - Alkalinity 8 dKH - Calcium 300 ppm - SG 1.023 Actions taken with no improvement: - Changed 10 gal water change each week for the last month. - Purchased Kent's buffer (white powder) and started to add with each water change My local reefer friend brought his test kits too and had same results as above. Can folks suggest what could be happening here?

02/01/2006, 05:19 PM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I'd be careful about adding iodine. It doesn't seem to be necessary, and too much can be a problem. I agree that the SG and Ca are low. I'd target 1.026 and 400 ppm respectively. This article is a good starting point: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php In addition, I'd recommend using a water condition like Amquel Plus with tapwater, if you go back to that. Nowadays many cities treat their water with chloramines, which aging won't remove. Walmart RO might be fine, might not. Hard to say. You could try working on the other parameters first, or you could look into a TDS tester to see how clean the water is, although that might not tell you much. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/01/2006, 06:19 PM	#7
Mariner Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: North Alabama Posts: 3,952	Does anyone think that a pH of 7.8 at night could be part of the problem? The timing of the change to the Walmart water does sound suspicious, although I've used it for years with no problems. Mariner __________________ DESIGN DEMANDS A DESIGNER. ~The perception is that perception is reality, but the reality is that it isn't. Current Tank Info: 75g mixed reef; 135g mixed reef

02/01/2006, 07:13 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Hmm, missed that part. More aeration might help the night-time pH. Otherwise, a lime drip might be worth considering. Do you have the Remora or Remora Pro? Also, raising SG, if you choose to do that, should be done gradually, maybe 0.001 units every other day. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/01/2006, 08:57 PM	#9
Mariner Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: North Alabama Posts: 3,952	I agree with raising SG slowly. Usually you can just let evaporation do its thing -- don't top off with freshwater until SG is where you want it, then top off with saltwater of desired SG, then top off with freshwater thereafter. And, I think Bertoni's idea of topping off with a Kalkwasser (limewater) drip at night would solve the night time pH drop; that's what I do, so it must be a good idea Not sure if SG or pH is really the problem, but correcting both won't hurt. HTH, Mariner __________________ DESIGN DEMANDS A DESIGNER. ~The perception is that perception is reality, but the reality is that it isn't. Current Tank Info: 75g mixed reef; 135g mixed reef

02/01/2006, 03:33 PM	#2
ronkent Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: weston, WI Posts: 678	First off I would not trust the RO from walmart. I used to get mine there and i tested it usually was fine....TDS around 5. One day i tested it and it was 130! Invest in your own RO.

02/01/2006, 03:54 PM	#3
jimbo045 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Aiea, HI. Posts: 1,788	Second, try boosting you salinity to around 1.025

02/01/2006, 03:54 PM	#4
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	I agree with the water and I would work on getting that calcium up too. IO is a fine salt mix (the one I use) but it is low on calcium.

02/02/2006, 12:30 PM	#10
TREXRC Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 195	Thanks for all your input and the article too. Here are answers to questions asked... 1. I have AquaC Remora (Not PRO) 2. I do use water conditioner (to remove chloramine) with my tap water on top of aging for 1 week. My action items from above feedback: - I will slowly increase SG to 1.0025. - I will stop using iodine supplement - I will increase Calcium levels - Improve night time Ph Any easy (not Calcium reactor) suggestions on increasing Calcium levels? Any off the shelf suggestions? Is Kalkwasser the answer to increase both my Calcium and maintain Ph? Should I continue to add the Kent buffer (white powder stuff) during water changes? Thankfully I found a reefer very close to home. He has an awesome system and is housing my affected Xenia and polyp.

02/02/2006, 01:43 PM	#11
BlueMiniS Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cincinnati, Oh Posts: 23	Also, check the level of copper in your tank. I was using small amounts of water from the grocery store with no problem. It had always tested out ok independently, and never saw any big change in the tank. Over time, the level of copper built up, and eventually got to a level high enough that it caused issues in the tank. I guess they use copper piping or something that causes it to be in the supply. After I discovered the copper, I temporarily moved some of the corals out of the tank into a smaller tank I had. Then I did a big water change, and scrubbing of the tank. I vacuumed the sand and all that good stuff. Eventually, with enough clean water changes, I was able to get the copper out, and my tank is getting back to where it was before the incident.

02/02/2006, 03:32 PM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Limewater will add both alkalinity and calcium to the tank, and help raise pH. In general, it can be used raise calcium only at a very slow rate. If dosed rapidly, the pH in the tank will spike and cause precipitation and other problems. This article has more information: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php To raise your calcium, I'd recommend a calcium chloride product, like TurboCalcium, or some equivalent. Dow Flake will work, if that's available in your area. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/02/2006, 03:34 PM	#13
TREXRC Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 195	One more observation on my problem. During the last 1-2 months of problems I have had significant Coraline Algae build up in the back glass. Is that a cause for concern? Thanks.

02/02/2006, 03:42 PM	#14
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	That indicates a presence of a fair amount of nutrients available to the coralline. I've been able to reduce coralline growth by growing and harvesting a macroalga. Such an approach might lead to cleaner water, and could reduce the calcium demand. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

03/07/2006, 12:13 PM	#15
TREXRC Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 195	Hi all, I still havent seen a noted improvement. For a brief time the corals looked good and now have started to not look very healthy. I wanted to throw couple of other things that may cause a problem. - Carbon: When I fill my carbon cartridges I leave it there for a month or so before replacing it. (It costs $9 to change a pair in my Emperor 400 unit) - Due to severe coraline aglae build up in the back glass I sometimes try to scrape off an area like 3"x3" or so. Can the above cause any problems to the corals? Thanks.

03/07/2006, 06:49 PM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I would find a cheaper way to use carbon. The bulk prices are lower, and a simple filter bag for a few dollars might fit in the Emperor somewhere. More carbon might help the corals if the problem is toxins in the water. What are all your water parameters now? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni