LFS Has New FAST Acclimation Process

leebca · 02/04/2006, 07:41 PM

The VENDOR EXPERIENCE FORUM is for on-line vendors, so I'm not posting this there, because the store doesn't sell on-line.

Acclimation of new fish/specimens to our fish tanks is a very important final effort to give our marine life a chance to live a long life in our glass cages. Done properly, with a healthy and suitable specimen, the aquarist can have years of enjoyment from that new addition, and the new addition will live a long and potentially healthy life. Done in haste, the new specimen could be doomed.

I buy fish from many different sources (for myself and for others). I'm in a local fish store (LFS) this last Friday at about noon and I happen to see a brand new acclimation technique. This is how it went:

Sealed bags floated in water for 20 minutes;
Bag cut open with a razor;
Fish and water poured through a net;
Water caught in bucket beneath net;
Netted fish is tossed into the LFS tank.

The process takes about 21 minutes.

Fishes that were acclimated like this:
Lionfish
Tangs (assorted)
Angelfish (assorted)

I asked for no explanation. Maybe there was reasoning behind it. But this is certainly one good reason not to buy from that LFS any specimen that hasn't been in its tank for at least a week (fish) or longer (inverts).

It differs quite a bit from my acclimation process:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=669022

So. . .has anyone done this or a 'faster' acclimation?

TerryB · 02/05/2006, 12:15 AM

It is quick and lazy, but not a good method at all. This is not a good way to acclimate fish when they are just coming from your LFS, let alone transported halfway across the world.

Terry B

Andrew · 02/05/2006, 08:23 AM

LFS don't want to spend the time to drip acclimate every single fish they get. There would be buckets everywhere. Most lfs only float the bag unless say it was a less harder fish or ect.

leebca · 02/05/2006, 08:38 AM

Andrew,

So. . .Figuring that the LFS went to LAX to get his fish (a process I've been through dozens of times), then the fish had been bagged no less than 4 hours. Under these circumstances, the only thing you think is important is that the temperature of the water is the same, and not worry about pH, specific gravity, or other water quality differences between the wholesaler's water system and the LFS water system? Should this not then apply also to the home aquarist bringing home the bagged fish in say, less than 2 hours? -- That is -- don't worry about salinity, pH, and other water quality differences, just make sure the temperature is the same and then drop the fish into the QT?

Where is the dividing line between the 'hardy' and 'not hardy' fishes where one can make the informed decision to dump or acclimate?

Thanks for your post Andrew.

Steven Pro · 02/05/2006, 01:27 PM

This method is fairly common. I have seen it done at a wide variety of stores and frankly it is not that bad in my experience.

Anyone that has freshwater dipped a fish knows that differences in salinity are not usually a problem for fish. Temperature differences are fixed by floating. The pH difference is surely to be stressful, but it is the lesser of two evils in my opinion. The low pH in the shipping bag helps to alleviate the toxicity of the ammonia that has buildup in the water as well. By dripping or adding cups of water to the shipping bags, you do slowly bring up the pH, but you also convert all the ammonia to its more toxic form.

kevin2000 · 02/06/2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
Anyone that has freshwater dipped a fish knows that differences in salinity are not usually a problem for fish

Been doing this alot of yrs and have seen plenty of fish show significant symptoms of stress during FW baths.

Like most things one needs to weigh the good vs the bad and your observation about ammonium/ammonia conversion is correct but probably more relevant for those purchasing fish that have been bagged for prolonged periods ... suspect the quick method is a poor choice for those who bring home fish from the LFS.

MiddletonMark · 02/06/2006, 09:37 AM

Given they regularly receive fish from the same wholesaler - perhaps they run their tanks at the same parameters to avoid SG changes?

I know from time to time when my LFS gets in a big shipment, they will clear one of their fish systems, change the SG to match ahead of time - and then can handle unpacking so many bags in limited time. Think they may change parameters otherwise, I'm unsure ... but something to think about.

Triggerfish · 02/06/2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
This method is fairly common. I have seen it done at a wide variety of stores and frankly it is not that bad in my experience.

Anyone that has freshwater dipped a fish knows that differences in salinity are not usually a problem for fish.

that is the common Petco method. that's what they do..float and pour.

IME - differences in increased salinity are a huge problem for fish. not talking a matter of minutes for dips and baths, but over the span of several hours/days.

accidently put my angel in 1.030 from 1.017 and he was p issed.
so p issed he refused to move or eat. could you explain or point me to one of your write-ups that indicate where that wasn't a problem??

Steven Pro · 02/06/2006, 11:00 AM

For one, 1.030 is pretty high. That could explain a significant portion of that fish's adverse reaction. Secondly, I have never heard of any wholesale facility that operates routinely at hyposalinity. Dumping a fish straight into 1.025 from 1.009 could be problematic, but that is not what we are talking about here. At worst, it is probably something like 1.018 to 1.025. In my opinion and experience, that is not a big deal.

Triggerfish · 02/06/2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
For one, 1.030 is pretty high. That could explain a significant portion of that fish's adverse reaction.

unlikely that would be cause alone for Red Sea specimens.
it was an Asfur.

Steven Pro · 02/06/2006, 12:11 PM

I can think of other reasons for a fish to react negatively if you want.

TerryB · 02/06/2006, 12:15 PM

Steven,

In response to your comment below:

"Secondly, I have never heard of any wholesale facility that operates routinely at hyposalinity. Dumping a fish straight into 1.025 from 1.009 could be problematic, but that is not what we are talking about here."

I know this is not a wholesaler, but this aquarium has dropped the salinity rapidly without any problems.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/short.htmb

You may be interested in my article on the subject of acclimation in the January 2006 issue. Part two is due out soon.

Terry B

leebca · 02/06/2006, 12:32 PM

What MiddletonMark suggested is actually, IMHO a probable set of circumstances warranting this procedure. If the source (wholesaler's) water is nearly the same sp. gr. and pH as the LFS water, then there shouldn't be a major concern. But are the three parameters of sp. gr., temp., and pH all to be concerned about?

I can envision an experiment where the fish, gathered from an old/seasoned system is kept in a bag for 4 hours, floated in freshly prepared saltwater from a mix and, the temp., pH, and sp. gr. being the same, then the fish being strained and dumped into the fresh mix. This might be one test.

But I think the reality of the matter is closer to what Steven Pro has mentioned. I can vouch for the fact that I have tested temp., pH, and sp. gr. of more than 5 wholesaler's waters at LAX. Most run a sp. gr. of around 1.018 I also noted this similar sp. gr. for mailorder fishes.

I have also tested LFS system water in the So. CA area. They run about 1.022 except those using ocean water off the coast of So. CA.

This leads me to conclude that the 'practical' difference between supplier and LFS sp. gr. is about .004, with the transition being from the lower to the higher (probably the worst direction for fish health).

pH has a difference of up to about 0.3 pH units, with direction evenly distributed (higher or lower).

Given the above, the swing could be 0.004 sp. gr. units up and 0.3 pH units (up or down) [not taking into account changes in the bag water pH] between wholesaler's and LFS's water.

Is this a problem for marine fishes?

Steven Pro · 02/06/2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerryB
Steven,

In response to your comment below:

"Secondly, I have never heard of any wholesale facility that operates routinely at hyposalinity. Dumping a fish straight into 1.025 from 1.009 could be problematic, but that is not what we are talking about here."

I know this is not a wholesaler, but this aquarium has dropped the salinity rapidly without any problems.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/short.htmb

You may be interested in my article on the subject of acclimation in the January 2006 issue. Part two is due out soon.

Terry B

I don't have a problem rapidly lowering salinity. Actually, in an email Dr. Colorni stressed to me that the salinity should actually be lowered quickly versus hobbyist tendencies to do it gradually. But, I have noticed that fish seem to do better if brought back up to normal salinity from hyposalinity slowly. But again, we aren't likely talking about dumping fish from a true hyposalinity into full strength salinity. On the contrary, in my experience both wholesalers and retailers are prone to run at slightly under normal seawater salinity. So, the salinity differences are very likely small during this transition.

I am waiting to read your article on acclimation. I am very much interested in it. I was able to give part one a quick glance, enough to tease me for part two.

TerryB · 02/06/2006, 04:06 PM

I believe the parameters that are most often problematic and take the longest to acclimate to are changes in temperature and pH. You certainly don't want to slowly raise the oxygen level if it is too low. I would never slowly acclimate fish out of water with ammonia. The point is that how quickly the fish should be acclimated depends on what parameters the fish are being acclimated for. If the transport water is the same temperature and pH as the quarantine tank, then there isn't much reason for a long acclimation. I find large changes in the pH and temperature to cause the most problems with fish health and stress.

I actually think that a quick reduction in salinity helps the fish recover from stress and the inherent osmoregulatory dysfunction quickly. It probably helps them to regain feeding behaviors more quickly also.

I would agree to be more conservative when raising the salinity back to NSW.

Terry B

Steven Pro · 02/06/2006, 06:00 PM

Ideally, one would get the fish out of the bags and the nasty shipping water as soon as possible and the new water they are introduced into would be adjusted to match the pH of the water in the bags. If you have ever visited a wholesaler operation, you will see this is common practice. But, at a LFS, where price conscientious consumers are already complaining about the retail cost of livestock versus buying off the internet, the money to add the equipment, time training employees, and time implementing these procedures would have to be reflected in the final purchase price. Hence, you see this modified technique more and more at the retail level.

leebca · 02/06/2006, 08:54 PM

Steven,

You're close to making the point that if it costs the LFS $100 to acclimate slowly, but by acclimating fast he might lose $50 in wholesale fish costs, that he's ahead by risking fish loss in the chosen process.

I understand the economics, but where's the ethics?

The above position would be good grist for those who say our fish prices are too low and, if they were higher, the ornamental fish industry would be less wasteful; less affects on the world's reefs and seas.

Hmmm

Steven Pro · 02/07/2006, 07:58 AM

I believe the costs would be far higher. One would need an entire quarantine facility to hold all freshly shipped fish in low pH water until they could be slowly brought up. This would cost thousands of dollar to buy and install, even more to maintain, plus rent, taxes, utilities, etc. on that space. While the costs/losses are, in my experience, much lower.

I do understand you ethical objections, but this is still a business. And unfortunately, it is an industry dominated by mostly ignorant (as in uninformed, not rude) consumers that purchase animals to match their curtains or couch and do so at the cheapest price possible.

adamprice271 · 02/07/2006, 10:14 AM

I used to work at an LFS, and their method was float the bags untill everything was floating in the proper tank. Once all bags were in, you take a scissors, cut each bag and dump in the fish and its water into the new tank. (The system was easily 800 gallons per side...2 sides each with own sump). My friend and I who worked there wanted to start doing the drip method, so we did it for 2 months (SW order 2-4 times per month) and our death rate was higher than normal. We lost 2-3 fish out of 35 in one night, and then one here or there for till the next order. With the float, cut, dump method, we lost less than 10 fish total in 5 months. Our salt section was in the back in a large room. We would put the fish in their new tank (as described above..dump) and then turn off the lights, and close the section down. The next morning 80% or better were all eating and very healthy. And you can't change the tank SG to match the bags because each bag was different. This method worked for all of our inverts, fish, sharks, rays, etc everything from a volitan lionfish to a powder blue tang.

Adam

MiddletonMark · 02/07/2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adamprice271
And you can't change the tank SG to match the bags because each bag was different. This method worked for all of our inverts, fish, sharks, rays, etc everything from a volitan lionfish to a powder blue tang.

I don't have the experience here - but that seems odd to me. Are wholesalers running many systems, with significant change from one to the other in terms of SG?

As stated before - I don't know. I do know when a LFS near me gets stuff in [esp transhipped] they alter their water parameters to match ... but that's what they tell me, given what I've seen in the past from them - they could be 1000% mistaken.

gobygoby · 02/07/2006, 10:39 AM

having worked at serveral LFS's....float and dump is what is standard. atleast the bag water was discarded and not put into the systems.

you would be hard pressed to find any LFS that has enough space to Q'tine anything. not to mention the extra $$$ in utilities, man power, and equipment needed.

I would imagine that if Q'tining was common practice, the cost of livestock would be much higher.

and think about it this way. if on any random order to an LFS they have a 25% death rate (which is prettyt high) on a $1000 order they lose $250. and lets say the order s 50 fish.

so they lost 12 fish.

the amount of money to house and Q'tine 50 fish for a week is way more then losing $250. if figure that some of the losses are DOA, so they get credit back from the supplier. so they may have only lost $150.

the money to pay an employee, mediation, salt,....any resource that needs to be renewed will cost more then the loss.

.02

Goby

leebca · 02/07/2006, 10:44 AM

Remember Goby. . .The topic is acclimation, not quarantine. What is the cost of acclimation compared to the dump method? (excluding quarantine).

Steven Pro · 02/07/2006, 10:58 AM

The tanks needed to bring the low pH up water back to normal over 24 hours would necessarily be QT tanks. You couldn't use the regular for sale tanks as there are inevitably fish still there from previous orders. Plus, you couldn't send fish home to buyers in water that had a pH of 7.0. So, to implement a slow pH adjustment would require additional tanks to receive fish into, adjust them up over 24 hours, and then eventually move them to the for sale tanks.

Steven Pro · 02/07/2006, 10:59 AM

It may not last a full month or longer that a true quarantine period would require, but it would necessitate a separate system.

leebca · 02/07/2006, 11:55 AM

Steven,

You're wavering from the topic. The topic is the fast acclimation. No one has proposed (?) a 24-hour acclimation process for pH adjustment, unless I'm missing a post. I'm talking about the 'fast method' vs. the standard 1.5 to 2 hour method after the 15-20 minute float. I've performed the 1.5 to 2 hour method and had pH within 0.1 units of each other.

What's the cost to the LFS of dumping the fish in the for-sale tank vs. a 1.5 to 2-hour acclimation period?

Within that 2 hour acclimation process most advocated, the salinity and pH comes very close to matching the water the fish are going into.

02/04/2006, 07:41 PM	#1
leebca Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: So. CA Posts: 2,902	LFS Has New FAST Acclimation Process The VENDOR EXPERIENCE FORUM is for on-line vendors, so I'm not posting this there, because the store doesn't sell on-line. Acclimation of new fish/specimens to our fish tanks is a very important final effort to give our marine life a chance to live a long life in our glass cages. Done properly, with a healthy and suitable specimen, the aquarist can have years of enjoyment from that new addition, and the new addition will live a long and potentially healthy life. Done in haste, the new specimen could be doomed. I buy fish from many different sources (for myself and for others). I'm in a local fish store (LFS) this last Friday at about noon and I happen to see a brand new acclimation technique. This is how it went: Sealed bags floated in water for 20 minutes; Bag cut open with a razor; Fish and water poured through a net; Water caught in bucket beneath net; Netted fish is tossed into the LFS tank. The process takes about 21 minutes. Fishes that were acclimated like this: Lionfish Tangs (assorted) Angelfish (assorted) I asked for no explanation. Maybe there was reasoning behind it. But this is certainly one good reason not to buy from that LFS any specimen that hasn't been in its tank for at least a week (fish) or longer (inverts). It differs quite a bit from my acclimation process: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=669022 So. . .has anyone done this or a 'faster' acclimation?

02/05/2006, 12:15 AM	#2
TerryB Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,032	It is quick and lazy, but not a good method at all. This is not a good way to acclimate fish when they are just coming from your LFS, let alone transported halfway across the world. Terry B __________________ Knowledge first. A large water change can cover a multitude of sins against your aquarium.

02/05/2006, 01:27 PM	#5
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	This method is fairly common. I have seen it done at a wide variety of stores and frankly it is not that bad in my experience. Anyone that has freshwater dipped a fish knows that differences in salinity are not usually a problem for fish. Temperature differences are fixed by floating. The pH difference is surely to be stressful, but it is the lesser of two evils in my opinion. The low pH in the shipping bag helps to alleviate the toxicity of the ammonia that has buildup in the water as well. By dripping or adding cups of water to the shipping bags, you do slowly bring up the pH, but you also convert all the ammonia to its more toxic form. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/06/2006, 09:37 AM	#7
MiddletonMark Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 14,441	Given they regularly receive fish from the same wholesaler - perhaps they run their tanks at the same parameters to avoid SG changes? I know from time to time when my LFS gets in a big shipment, they will clear one of their fish systems, change the SG to match ahead of time - and then can handle unpacking so many bags in limited time. Think they may change parameters otherwise, I'm unsure ... but something to think about. __________________ read a lot, think for yourself Current Tank Info: 58g stony reef [250w10k, 250w 20k MH, 2x vho act, Octopus150, 6060 + 6000] ; 60g mixed tub

02/06/2006, 11:00 AM	#9
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	For one, 1.030 is pretty high. That could explain a significant portion of that fish's adverse reaction. Secondly, I have never heard of any wholesale facility that operates routinely at hyposalinity. Dumping a fish straight into 1.025 from 1.009 could be problematic, but that is not what we are talking about here. At worst, it is probably something like 1.018 to 1.025. In my opinion and experience, that is not a big deal. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/05/2006, 08:23 AM	#3
Andrew Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 13,640	LFS don't want to spend the time to drip acclimate every single fish they get. There would be buckets everywhere. Most lfs only float the bag unless say it was a less harder fish or ect.

02/05/2006, 08:38 AM	#4
leebca Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: So. CA Posts: 2,902	Andrew, So. . .Figuring that the LFS went to LAX to get his fish (a process I've been through dozens of times), then the fish had been bagged no less than 4 hours. Under these circumstances, the only thing you think is important is that the temperature of the water is the same, and not worry about pH, specific gravity, or other water quality differences between the wholesaler's water system and the LFS water system? Should this not then apply also to the home aquarist bringing home the bagged fish in say, less than 2 hours? -- That is -- don't worry about salinity, pH, and other water quality differences, just make sure the temperature is the same and then drop the fish into the QT? Where is the dividing line between the 'hardy' and 'not hardy' fishes where one can make the informed decision to dump or acclimate? Thanks for your post Andrew.

02/06/2006, 12:11 PM	#11
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	I can think of other reasons for a fish to react negatively if you want. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/06/2006, 12:15 PM	#12
TerryB Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,032	Steven, In response to your comment below: "Secondly, I have never heard of any wholesale facility that operates routinely at hyposalinity. Dumping a fish straight into 1.025 from 1.009 could be problematic, but that is not what we are talking about here." I know this is not a wholesaler, but this aquarium has dropped the salinity rapidly without any problems. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/short.htmb You may be interested in my article on the subject of acclimation in the January 2006 issue. Part two is due out soon. Terry B __________________ Knowledge first. A large water change can cover a multitude of sins against your aquarium.

02/06/2006, 12:32 PM	#13
leebca Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: So. CA Posts: 2,902	What MiddletonMark suggested is actually, IMHO a probable set of circumstances warranting this procedure. If the source (wholesaler's) water is nearly the same sp. gr. and pH as the LFS water, then there shouldn't be a major concern. But are the three parameters of sp. gr., temp., and pH all to be concerned about? I can envision an experiment where the fish, gathered from an old/seasoned system is kept in a bag for 4 hours, floated in freshly prepared saltwater from a mix and, the temp., pH, and sp. gr. being the same, then the fish being strained and dumped into the fresh mix. This might be one test. But I think the reality of the matter is closer to what Steven Pro has mentioned. I can vouch for the fact that I have tested temp., pH, and sp. gr. of more than 5 wholesaler's waters at LAX. Most run a sp. gr. of around 1.018 I also noted this similar sp. gr. for mailorder fishes. I have also tested LFS system water in the So. CA area. They run about 1.022 except those using ocean water off the coast of So. CA. This leads me to conclude that the 'practical' difference between supplier and LFS sp. gr. is about .004, with the transition being from the lower to the higher (probably the worst direction for fish health). pH has a difference of up to about 0.3 pH units, with direction evenly distributed (higher or lower). Given the above, the swing could be 0.004 sp. gr. units up and 0.3 pH units (up or down) [not taking into account changes in the bag water pH] between wholesaler's and LFS's water. Is this a problem for marine fishes?

02/06/2006, 04:06 PM	#15
TerryB Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,032	I believe the parameters that are most often problematic and take the longest to acclimate to are changes in temperature and pH. You certainly don't want to slowly raise the oxygen level if it is too low. I would never slowly acclimate fish out of water with ammonia. The point is that how quickly the fish should be acclimated depends on what parameters the fish are being acclimated for. If the transport water is the same temperature and pH as the quarantine tank, then there isn't much reason for a long acclimation. I find large changes in the pH and temperature to cause the most problems with fish health and stress. I actually think that a quick reduction in salinity helps the fish recover from stress and the inherent osmoregulatory dysfunction quickly. It probably helps them to regain feeding behaviors more quickly also. I would agree to be more conservative when raising the salinity back to NSW. Terry B __________________ Knowledge first. A large water change can cover a multitude of sins against your aquarium.

02/06/2006, 06:00 PM	#16
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	Ideally, one would get the fish out of the bags and the nasty shipping water as soon as possible and the new water they are introduced into would be adjusted to match the pH of the water in the bags. If you have ever visited a wholesaler operation, you will see this is common practice. But, at a LFS, where price conscientious consumers are already complaining about the retail cost of livestock versus buying off the internet, the money to add the equipment, time training employees, and time implementing these procedures would have to be reflected in the final purchase price. Hence, you see this modified technique more and more at the retail level. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/06/2006, 08:54 PM	#17
leebca Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: So. CA Posts: 2,902	Steven, You're close to making the point that if it costs the LFS $100 to acclimate slowly, but by acclimating fast he might lose $50 in wholesale fish costs, that he's ahead by risking fish loss in the chosen process. I understand the economics, but where's the ethics? The above position would be good grist for those who say our fish prices are too low and, if they were higher, the ornamental fish industry would be less wasteful; less affects on the world's reefs and seas. Hmmm

02/07/2006, 07:58 AM	#18
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	I believe the costs would be far higher. One would need an entire quarantine facility to hold all freshly shipped fish in low pH water until they could be slowly brought up. This would cost thousands of dollar to buy and install, even more to maintain, plus rent, taxes, utilities, etc. on that space. While the costs/losses are, in my experience, much lower. I do understand you ethical objections, but this is still a business. And unfortunately, it is an industry dominated by mostly ignorant (as in uninformed, not rude) consumers that purchase animals to match their curtains or couch and do so at the cheapest price possible. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/07/2006, 10:14 AM	#19
adamprice271 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sunset Hills Posts: 256	I used to work at an LFS, and their method was float the bags untill everything was floating in the proper tank. Once all bags were in, you take a scissors, cut each bag and dump in the fish and its water into the new tank. (The system was easily 800 gallons per side...2 sides each with own sump). My friend and I who worked there wanted to start doing the drip method, so we did it for 2 months (SW order 2-4 times per month) and our death rate was higher than normal. We lost 2-3 fish out of 35 in one night, and then one here or there for till the next order. With the float, cut, dump method, we lost less than 10 fish total in 5 months. Our salt section was in the back in a large room. We would put the fish in their new tank (as described above..dump) and then turn off the lights, and close the section down. The next morning 80% or better were all eating and very healthy. And you can't change the tank SG to match the bags because each bag was different. This method worked for all of our inverts, fish, sharks, rays, etc everything from a volitan lionfish to a powder blue tang. Adam

02/07/2006, 10:39 AM	#21
gobygoby Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indianapolis - Indiana Posts: 1,340	having worked at serveral LFS's....float and dump is what is standard. atleast the bag water was discarded and not put into the systems. you would be hard pressed to find any LFS that has enough space to Q'tine anything. not to mention the extra $$$ in utilities, man power, and equipment needed. I would imagine that if Q'tining was common practice, the cost of livestock would be much higher. and think about it this way. if on any random order to an LFS they have a 25% death rate (which is prettyt high) on a $1000 order they lose $250. and lets say the order s 50 fish. so they lost 12 fish. the amount of money to house and Q'tine 50 fish for a week is way more then losing $250. if figure that some of the losses are DOA, so they get credit back from the supplier. so they may have only lost $150. the money to pay an employee, mediation, salt,....any resource that needs to be renewed will cost more then the loss. .02 Goby __________________ Goby Current Tank Info: 1/8 gal. super-mega nano

02/07/2006, 10:44 AM	#22
leebca Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: So. CA Posts: 2,902	Remember Goby. . .The topic is acclimation, not quarantine. What is the cost of acclimation compared to the dump method? (excluding quarantine).

02/07/2006, 10:58 AM	#23
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	The tanks needed to bring the low pH up water back to normal over 24 hours would necessarily be QT tanks. You couldn't use the regular for sale tanks as there are inevitably fish still there from previous orders. Plus, you couldn't send fish home to buyers in water that had a pH of 7.0. So, to implement a slow pH adjustment would require additional tanks to receive fish into, adjust them up over 24 hours, and then eventually move them to the for sale tanks. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/07/2006, 10:59 AM	#24
Steven Pro Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 9,376	It may not last a full month or longer that a true quarantine period would require, but it would necessitate a separate system. __________________ Steven Pro, yep that is my real name. Current Tank Info: Twelve 600 gallon tubs located in a greenhouse

02/07/2006, 11:55 AM	#25
leebca Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: So. CA Posts: 2,902	Steven, You're wavering from the topic. The topic is the fast acclimation. No one has proposed (?) a 24-hour acclimation process for pH adjustment, unless I'm missing a post. I'm talking about the 'fast method' vs. the standard 1.5 to 2 hour method after the 15-20 minute float. I've performed the 1.5 to 2 hour method and had pH within 0.1 units of each other. What's the cost to the LFS of dumping the fish in the for-sale tank vs. a 1.5 to 2-hour acclimation period? Within that 2 hour acclimation process most advocated, the salinity and pH comes very close to matching the water the fish are going into.