LFS Has New FAST Acclimation Process

[gobygoby]

Originally posted by leebca
Remember Goby. . .The topic is acclimation, not quarantine. What is the cost of acclimation compared to the dump method? (excluding quarantine).

I realize that. however as Steven said, acclimation or(quarintine) would require a seperate system.

if you propose to say "drip" acclimate livestock where would you do this.

at one LFS, we took a styro box and dumped lots of fish in there and dripped water from the fish system in to the box. therefore the fish could get adjusted to the water.

but that caused stryo boxes and airline tubing to be all over the place. customers basically couldnt get with 3 feet of the tanks for up to 2 hours because the boxes were sitting in front of them.

even if done this way, you would still have to replenish the lost salt water ($$) from the from drip and potentially lose sales because people cant really get up to the sales tanks. also, numerous fish in a box about the size of a 30 gal tank. there are bound to be fights, fish gfetting stressed, and nipped fins..etc...now in the process of acclimation some fish may die and or be exposed to infections...

I do agree, and think it would make the world a better place if LFS's were able to acclimate fish "properly" but, sorry to say, most LFS's arent catering to the fish, they are catering to the customer, who spend $$. its cost effective for them float and dump. they want to move product fast, and can make more doing it that way.

sorry to say but thats the reality of the american dream.

[leebca]

TerryB.

It's easy to make non-specific generalities, e.g.:

I find large changes in the pH and temperature to cause the most problems with fish health and stress.

but I don't think this is helpful. What's the pH difference that's a concern? what's the temperature difference that's a concern? what's your reference(s)? Without the facts can we make the decision of which method reduces fish loss?

If the above can't be answered without further investigation, then we're back to having to perform a standard acclimation, EXCEPT that Adam's post indicates a reduced fish loss from the fast acclimation process vs. the drip method. I believe one of the worst acclimation processes would be the drip method in the case of marine fishes, but what of the 'fast' v. 'highly advocated' acclimation 1.5-2 hour process?

Another question along this line. . .What if I added an ammonia absorbent to the bag water, then raised the pH of the (floating)bag water without mixing aquarium water with it, then dumped the fish after the pH was adjusted over an hour or X time period? But the time would still rely upon knowing what is an important/significant/unacceptable difference in pH between tank and bag waters.

Some shippers use an ammonia blocker in their shipping water. Some are commercially available.

That's my target discussion.

[gobygoby]

Originally posted by leebca
I believe one of the worst acclimation processes would be the drip method in the case of marine fishes,

whats wrong with that? dripping tank water into the fishes original water will slowly adjust the water to the same params....

[gobygoby]

Originally posted by leebca
Another question along this line. . .What if I added an ammonia absorbent to the bag water, then raised the pH of the (floating)bag water without mixing aquarium water with it, then dumped the fish after the pH was adjusted over an hour or X time period? But the time would still rely upon knowing what is an important/significant/unacceptable difference in pH between tank and bag waters.

Some shippers use an ammonia blocker in their shipping water. Some are commercially available.

That's my target discussion.

I dont think adding anything to such a small closed environment can be good.

what if the ammonia blocker was tainted in some way and the shipper used this on every single bag....then 100% of that shipment would be at risk, even before the "acclimation" process started.

when you start complicating things, you start adding risks. even adding oxygen to a bag has a risk, upon open the bag, and the air mixes with c02, the ammonia will spike...and virtually no time for any type of acclimation

[leebca]

gobygoby Hi!

First, an efficient drip method:
I've seen wholesalers do this on a massive scale:
Bagged fish & bag water dumped into container; container floats in wholesaler tank; drip tube dropped into container; drip begun; container overflow water goes into wholesaler tank.

The container is left unmonitored.

At the proper time, operator turns off drip; dumps fish and water into wholesaler tank; stores container on rack above tanks; goes to next floating container.

No water loss. In fact, a water gain from adding bag water to wholesaler tanks.

The drip water comes from a low-pressure pipe running the length of the row above and out of sight of the wholesaler tank. Pipe 'risers' at intervals are fitted with tubing with a plastic flow control or just tied in knots to limit flow.

The LFS you worked at wasn't prepared for this kind of handling. But the above is done without mess, is efficient (for this process) and has very little time consumption. It takes some preparation and planning, but once setup it isn't offensive to the eye. In fact, looking over such operations, I came to the conclusion that too little attention was given the fishes handled like this. I could see suffering and dying fish in these containers compared to other processes.

The drip method is not generally considered an optimal acclimation process for marine fishes. The fishes suffer for the confinement for such a long time. They are producing more ammonia while acclimating, which the drip system may not catch up on. In essence, too much time and the stress too great for this to be the preferred method. This is the desired method though for some inverts.

But, my point of the thread is what are the facts and which method reduces fish losses? I'm not sure any acclimation beyond temperature matching is needed unless the bag water has parameters that are too far off from the tank water they will be added, then one needs to know what difference(s) are significant and what procedure to best use.

[gobygoby]

Originally posted by leebca

No water loss. In fact, a water gain from adding bag water to wholesaler tanks.

well. I can understand your point except this part.

so now that you have acclimated the new fish to current tank water you are willing to risk existing fish by exposing them to water with higher params then that they are used to, not to mention introducing any unwanted parasites, bacteria, viruses....that might be in the bag water?

afterall, dripping water doesnt actually make the bag water the exact same as tank water. its only a 50% mix so its closer to the tank, but not the same.

and hey back at ya.

[billsreef]

Interesting discussion. I've been at this for some 20 years at the retail level in one capacity or another, and always hands on with the livestock. I've seen some differences between the "theories" and what really happens. Over the years I've discovered that when acclimating overnight shipped fish, the float and drop method actually increased survival as opposed to using lengthy drip acclimation procedures. Also my experiences coincide with what has been said about fish tolerating a sudden drop in salinity better than a fast increase. As for pH differences, I find getting the fish back to normal pH values fast is better than slow. I liken it to leaving a very smog filled room and going outside for some fresh air

[TerryB]

Hi Lee,

A change in pH of more than .3 in a 24-hour period is going to be highly stressful with biochemical consequences to the fish. Temperature should be adjusted 2F per day, possibly 4F if the temperature is rising rather than falling. The second part of my series in Advanced Aquarist is due on the 15th. It may answer a lot of questions and it does have several references. As you can see by my response here, I believe SLOWER acclimation to temperature and pH changes are in order.

Terry B

[Gobie]

Ammonia becomes more toxic at a higher ph, the bag has more co2 in it supplied by the fish’s respiration causing the pH to fall in the bag. As you do a drip method this will raise the ph in the bag and expose the fish in it to a lethal dose of ammonia. Float, cut, drain and drop is a better way to acclimate a shipped fish. IMO

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Just an FYI as I didn't read all of the post but did skim them. Temp diferences of about 8 degress dosen't seem to bother fish, inverts or corals. Case is point is that I rotuinly do 50% water changes on my tanks. I use NSW and store it outside until needed. I do nothing to the water before using it, including heat or aireaite it. I just siphon out the old and pour in the new. I can see temp swings on my therometer of up to 8 or 9 degress. I've been doing this for years and it hasn't bothered any of my inhabitants.

Matter of fact, everything is back out and opened in a few hours after a water change. I never had that happen when I was using ASW, mixing it up and letting it sit for a day.

So in my personal experience, I don't think tempature makes that big of a difference as everyone thinks. What they are doing for acclimation seems like nothing less than what I do during a water change.

[baobao]

Terry,
I've been adapting method of adjusting PH, temperature to fish bag and then dropping fish in qt. however, the air bubbles in qt brings the PH back up quickly, my hunch is that it is definitely faster than 0.3 in a 24 hour period. how do i ensure that PH is brought up slowly?

[leebca]

Thanks to all who are participating in this thread. Welcome to the ones who have just shown up. I encourage those who 'watch' or 'lurk' to contribute their experience, even if it might be anecdotal. Now, to some posts of my own. . .

[leebca]

gobygoby,

Remember, I was writing about wholesalers. They also have massive UV and skimmer systems and often run copper in their systems. (A couple use ozone, too). What do they fear of disease? The fish are sold within a couple of days and even in a few hours! That's how fast the fish can turn over. (I know retailers that visit wholesalers daily because prize specimens don't last much longer than a day.)

Here's the real kick --- what the retailers don't buy, the wholesaler bags and ships to mailorder customers. If it's moving; it's bagged! [And a couple that aren't, too]. So after the walk-ins pick over the goods, the rest are shipped out.

I don't disagree with your observations about disease. I find what they do personally appalling, but. . .that's what they do and they don't care anymore than using a UV, skimmer, and copper. Their goal is to make the fish look good to the wholesale purchaser (who sometimes does or doesn't care, too). If you don't want to buy their fish, get out of their way -- but they sell, sell, sell.

This is even a bigger reason for the aquarist to quarantine, IMHO. After what I've seen. . .

Thanks for your participation here!

[leebca]

billsreef,

Glad to see you here. I appreciate your experiences and insights.

I am beginning to be convinced that the 'float and drop' method might reduce losses of marine fish in the long run.

I'm once again quarantining some fish for a friend. I buy them and QT them. Some delicates and hardy. This is my recent list:

Chevron Butterfly (lumulatus)
Declivis
Muellers
Rainfordi
Regal Angel
Bennet's Butterfly
Sinagpore Angel
Kole Tang
Spotted Yellow Eye Tang

Each I've 'floated and dropped.' Still working with them, but after a week none have expired; half are eating.

Bag pH differences were as great as 0.5 pH units; salinity was as high as 0.005 differences. Temperatures were equalized.

billsreef: Do you have any actual numbers in the sense of the 'float and drop' method regarding pH and salinity differences between bag and tank waters?

[leebca]

TerryB,

I find those number interesting, but unrealistic. They are much too conservative from my experience and the actual practice.

I'll look forward to reading/seeing supporting data. But after acclimating fish with the 'float and drop' method with pH differences of 0.5 units (in 22 minutes), I haven't found any effects yet.

Are you sure that billsreef comment about getting them to the right pH is more important than a slow transition? I understand some of the biochemical/physiological ramifications, but the fishes I work with (mostly butterflyfishes, angelfishes, and tangs) seem to handle it.

[leebca]

Gobie,

Do you by any chance have any data/information about just how low the pH has been in the bags you 'float and drop?' compared to the tank pH?

[Gobie]

No I do not, I don’t work at a fish store. this is what I have learned from some one who does. That when they get their orders transshipped they float the bags to match temperature. These fish have been in the bags a long time usually there are a few dead in the bags and some just hanging on. They are more concerned about lowering the co2 levels and having the higher ph from their system cause an ammonia spike. When this happens the fish will die in the bags or buckets or die later in the sale tank or after purchase. I have seen these fish, they are shipped in enough water to cover their backs and that’s it. In this small volume of water you can see that they will be starving for oxygen and the water quality will be terrible. This is why they do it this way. I acclimate drip when I buy my fish because it is the ideal way to do it. These fish are in a big bag with oxygen along with plenty of clean oxygen rich water and have only been in the bag for 10 minutes to 2 hours tops depending on fish store.

[billsreef]

Originally posted by leebca

billsreef: Do you have any actual numbers in the sense of the 'float and drop' method regarding pH and salinity differences between bag and tank waters?

Hi Lee,

I do indeed have some numbers for the discussion. I've recorded pH down to 7.4 and temps down to 68F in shipping bags. After floating for about an hour for temp (ideally in subdued lighting), the fish are removed from the shipping water and FW dipped. After FW dip they placed immediately into the system with pH of 8.2 to 8.4 and a temp of 78-80F. Fish going into a dedicated fish system are generally kept at slightly hyposaline conditions of around 1.020 (less is good, but freaks out the consumer too much), with bag salinity often been between 1.020 and 1.025 depending on the supplier. In any event, I've not had any problems from those differences in salinity. In cases where the fish have been obviously distressed in the bag upon arrival, my survival rates have drastically increased from the days of long drip acclimations.

I have recorded lower pH's and even temperatures, but in those cases most fish have already been dead or so close to it that they never survived more than a day or two after shipping, no matter what acclimation procedure has been used.

IMO the most important thing is how the fish are packed. Large bags and plenty of water and O2 along with use of ammonia binders. I've always had the best luck with animals coming from suppliers that are not shy with bag sizes and water volume. Might cost me a little more in shipping, but the animals have always done better than the ones from suppliers that use a shoe horn and Vaseline to get the critter in a bag and than spare the water to boot. In essence, you get what you pay for

Almost forgot, I touched on subdued lighting earlier in this post. I've definitely noticed that fish unpacked/acclimated under subdued lighting settle in much quicker and with less obvious stress than those unpacked/acclimated under bright lighting. IME that single, seemingly insignificant little detail can have more impact than a few points of pH, salinity or temperature can.

Terry,

I know that part of your article isn't out, but would you be willing to send me your list of references on the pH issue. Either by PM or email to billsreef@reefcentral.com

[leebca]

Much appreciated Bill.

When I am getting in fish from a shipper, I too am very conscientious about lighting. I first open the box in an almost dark room. Without disturbing the box contents (other than to remove any packing covering the tops of the bag(s)) I turn one room light on at a time (3 room lights) over a period of an hour.

When the light in the room matches the subdued light in the room with my QT, I then take the bags out of the box and let them lie in the open a few more minutes. Then I start the floating in the QT, in the QT room with no lighting (other than halides, see below).

The QT room also contains my main system refugium with halide lighting so although the room has no lights on in the process and at night, the halides are always on, across the room, shedding some light into the QT.

I too believe that lighting plays a significant role in the acclimation process (especially when fish are coming out a totally darkened box). I also try and use a dithering fish in the QT.

Thanks for the numbers, Bill!

[TerryB]

Baobao,

If you are purchasing fish from a LFS, then your quarantine tank should be adjusted to match the pH and temperature of the tank at the LFS where they come from BEFORE you bring the fish home. You should NOT be adjusting the pH and temperature of the water in the shipment bag.

Below is a snippet from part one of my article. It should help you with pH differences:

“You can use phosphoric acid packaged by Aquarium Pharmaceutical’s as pH Down™ to reduce the pH. Muriatic acid , used in pool supplies, will also reduce the pH of water. Numerous products are available to buffer water and bring the pH up including Seachem’s Marine Buffer™. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will also raise the pH. When adjusting the pH be careful not to change it too much at one time or too quickly.�

Terry B

[TerryB]

Hi Lee,

I am sure that the small changes in temperature and salinity that I suggest sound impractical to most. I can only recommend what I see as being safe for the fish. I don’t consider them to be acclimated until they have recovered from the stress of transport and handling, regained normal homeostasis again, have full immune function (severely suppressed by stress), are eating normally and have adjusted to their tankmates and the aquarist. Most people think they are done acclimating once the fish are in any tank.

The effects of stress on the health and longevity of the fish are my first concern. I think that you will agree that the survival rate at 30 days after capture and transport is poor. I believe this is due in large part to improper acclimation and handling, leading to Delayed Mortality Syndrome. The fish can appear to be fine for weeks and then die suddenly. Ignoring the needs of the fish because they are “unrealistic� is why I think the fish die so often in the first month. The consequences of stress last far after the fish have been placed in a tank. The reality of it is that we cannot ignore things like lactic acid build up, high levels of stress hormones in the blood, blood pH drops, osmotic dysfunction and suppressed immune function and expect survival rates to improve much. Usually it comes down to “its just too much trouble to do what is best for the fish.�

I cannot agree that it is better to get the pH to 8.3 quickly than to raise it slowly. Using the water parameters that Bill provided as an example, it would take three days to raise the pH from 7.4 to 8.3. If the water temperature is 68F, then it would take 3 to 5 days to raise it to 78F. I realize most wholesalers want to do what it quick, but that doesn’t foster the best long-term survival for the fish.

Terry B

[leebca]

Hi Terry,

I thought you'd post the reasoning you did. It's the 'down the road' results that verify or refute the acclimation process used, and not the immediate survival rate. But, our hobby is fixated on 'the now.' With people's experience of less immediate fish loss it's hard to get them to do something they can't 'see' is needed. Surveys to determine the survival rate at 15 and 30 days after acclimation by each method would be useful information.

It's the

I believe this is due in large part. . .

where the snag lies. We need to move from the "I believe" to the data which links the two.

-------

As an aside, your quotation above. ..Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid. This acid is far too strong for adjusting pH down in small quantities of water, IMHO. I wouldn't worry about the acetate molecule in such a need, and thus would recommend the use of distilled, pure vinegar (acetic acid) which is available at most grocery stores.

Live long and prosper!

[baobao]

Terry,

Sorry, I think I'm not being clear. Let me try an example. I recently received fish that were in very low PH ~ 7.4. Ok, let's say I've matched the PH, temperature of QT, and dropped bagged fish into this tank.

How do I prevent PH from increasing quickly? And further, what do you mean by too quick? The problem is that once I start aerating the tank, the PH increases and it is usually around 8 within half a day.

Would I need to monitor the PH and add muratic acid to lower the PH periodically?