Question about tank cycling

SethSPST · 04/25/2006, 10:55 AM

I started my 75 gallon about a month ago. I don't have live rock and I have cc 2-3" thick on the bottom. My filtation is a wet/dry system with bioballs. I put 2 green chromis and 2 sargent majors (about 1/2" each) in to cycle the tank. about 2 weeks later I added 15 hermits. In the past month my highest ammonia reading was .01. Now it's back to zero. I didn't test for nitrites until about a week ago. I got a zero on my test. I tested my water yesterday and got:
ammonia= 0
nitrite= 0
nitrate= 5

So does this mean my tank has cycled? I thought it would take more than a month. Thank for the help.
Seth

John@JP · 04/25/2006, 11:45 AM

Yeah it seems to have. You should still stock slowly for the next few months though.

Avi · 04/25/2006, 11:54 AM

I would agree with John. A couple of suggestions, though...I had a three-inch crushed coral substrate in my reef when I set it up, but I found that it was a trap for detritus and led to elevated nitrates in my tank. I ultimately changed over to a shallow sand bed which I like a lot better. Something to think about. Also, you don't mention how much live rock you have, but if it's a substantial amount, you needn't maintain the bio-balls in your system. Those are generally considered to lead to some elevation of nitrates, as well. I'm skeptical that either your substrate or the bio-balls could be elevating your nitrates this quickly....but something is. (That's not to say that 5ppm is dangerous.) Still, you should shoot for zero, so make sure that you aren't overfeeding, you start doing frequent water changes, and you should have a good quality protein skimmer on the reef. That, IMO, is essential.

SethSPST · 04/25/2006, 12:00 PM

I don't have live rock. I'm in the military and will transfer back to the mainland from hawaii in 3 years and it would all die, So I'm waiting to get some when I get back. I'm doing 20% water changes every 2 weeks and just hooked up my AquaC Urchin protien skimmer 3 days ago. I guess it still isn't broken in yet because it's not getting much skim. I had no choice with the crushed coral. My wife really likes the way it looks and as long as she's happy I can spend more money on the tank.

SethSPST · 04/25/2006, 12:01 PM

Thanks for the replies.

CarmieJo · 04/25/2006, 12:11 PM

If Momma's happy everybody is happy!!!

aynoT79 · 04/25/2006, 12:20 PM

Just take your time, the biggest mistake in tank failure is moving too fast and worrying about things.. add one thing at a time and if something tests a lil high dont worry...

Tonya

Bluemorningwind · 04/25/2006, 01:30 PM

Most of the cycle is due to the die off on live rock. However, you still need a working population of bacteria. Your readings are fine and the fish are still alive, so I guess you have a working population of bacteria.

All the best with it.

fishguy83 · 04/25/2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SethSPST
I put 2 green chromis and 2 sargent majors (about 1/2" each) in to cycle the tank.

I wouldn't recommend cycling with live fish though - its pretty cruel. You can cycle the tank with patience, letting everything run with the LR - or speed it up with a little raw shrimp (although some people disagree with this).

also, if your spike wasn't too large - you might not have a large amount of bacteria, so I 2nd everyone's suggestion of adding slowly...

Avi · 04/25/2006, 01:50 PM

I would say that you shouldn't worry about the cycling with the fish...the ones you chose are almost always hardy enough for it and even though it might not be the best idea, you've done it already so...that's life. On the other hand, I don't know that you'd want to keep them in the tank once your convinced it's totally cycled. Damsels can very easily turn out to be nuisance in a fishtank and so you might want to opt for better community fish, though you may be all right with the Chromis.

If you don't have live rock, then I'd say you're doing all right with the bio-balls. Lots of people do it successfully that way. Something to supplement the protein skimmer, which you should have working effectively soon, is a good idea.

fishguy83 · 04/25/2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Avi
I would say that you shouldn't worry about the cycling with the fish...the ones you chose are almost always hardy enough for it and even though it might not be the best idea, you've done it already so...that's life.

I agree, its already done - but just spreading the word. Just because the fish survived the cycle, doesn't mean it was pleasant for them....

Bluemorningwind · 04/26/2006, 12:14 AM

Without the die off from live rock the ammonia and nitrite levels would have been quite low. Really only the levels created by the fish and food. I doubt the fish suffered at all.

You don't need to add fish if you are cycling with live rock, though.

fishguy83 · 04/26/2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bluemorningwind
Without the die off from live rock the ammonia and nitrite levels would have been quite low. Really only the levels created by the fish and food. I doubt the fish suffered at all.

You don't need to add fish if you are cycling with live rock, though.

I'm not trying to sound like a pro - cuz i am a newbie, but have done plenty of reading/research...

so tell me if I'm wrong.. but

basically the scenario then is not a great cycle, low levels of bacteria to handle ammonia, any ammonia is toxic to fish - just because you don't see them stressed or dead, doesn't mean the low levels of ammonia doesn't affect them. then if you add fish, without having a decent spike in the beginning of the cycle, even slowly, each time you will have a decent spike, less if you actually cycle the tank ghost feeding or allowing some rot somewhere to establish the colony of bacteria

I'd be interested to know if SethSPST is keeping the chromis and others or are they only "disposable" fish used to cycle the tank?

Kurt03 · 04/26/2006, 04:46 PM

is cylcling by dosing ammonia frowned upon with saltwater ? i just know alot of people use it with freshwater tank alot

fishguy83 · 04/26/2006, 04:58 PM

I don't see why it would be frowned upon - except maybe you have to make sure you get pure ammonia, and that you don't overdose so it is hard to cycle- it will eventually go through the nitrogen cycle though -

The smell isn't too good either...

Kurt03 · 04/26/2006, 06:30 PM

ive dosed some and after its in the tank or in your dripper i dont notice it. i might not have used very much though idk. but i agree going from the bottle to however your adding it isnt pleasent.

Bluemorningwind · 04/27/2006, 12:13 AM

An ammonia spike isn't needed to establish a viable population of bacteria. A soon as a spike subsides the bacteria begin to die and the population becomes balanced in terms of the bio-load.

In fact, a spike of any kind is undesirable. We want to establish an environment that is capable of supporting the fish and other creatures that we want to keep and that is all. A large spike will postpone these conditions and we gain nothing in return.

A spike is more of an issue when adding large amounts of LR that's been shipped and there's a lot of die-off as a result. Even still, you should manually remove as much die off as possible prior to adding it.

This system will gain nothing by creating an ammonia spike and doing so by adding raw ammonia or dead prawns is, in fact, harmful and unnecessary.

Just leave it alone and it will be fine. If you have to play with things, you could think about adding a fuge, auto top off or what ever, but please don't worry about the bacteria, that's all fine.

fishguy83 · 04/27/2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bluemorningwind
An ammonia spike isn't needed to establish a viable population of bacteria. A soon as a spike subsides the bacteria begin to die and the population becomes balanced in terms of the bio-load.

In fact, a spike of any kind is undesirable. We want to establish an environment that is capable of supporting the fish and other creatures that we want to keep and that is all. A large spike will postpone these conditions and we gain nothing in return.

A spike is more of an issue when adding large amounts of LR that's been shipped and there's a lot of die-off as a result. Even still, you should manually remove as much die off as possible prior to adding it.

This system will gain nothing by creating an ammonia spike and doing so by adding raw ammonia or dead prawns is, in fact, harmful and unnecessary.

Just leave it alone and it will be fine. If you have to play with things, you could think about adding a fuge, auto top off or what ever, but please don't worry about the bacteria, that's all fine.

this contradicts a lot of what I have read - how do the bacteria that push the nitrogen cycle along grow? Do they not need a source like ammonia (which is essentially what all waste breaks down to)?

Just trying to learn...

If this is the case, why can't you just start a tank with any 'ole fish? Just start a tank and throw in a trigger?

Kurt03 · 04/27/2006, 09:33 PM

I dont think he got the part that we were talking about setting up a new tank. Without live rock or anything.
" This system will gain nothing by creating an ammonia spike and doing so by adding raw ammonia or dead prawns is, in fact, harmful and unnecessary. "

I was talking about adding ammonia to a fresh tank to get the cycle going without live rock being added yet. Say if you were doing fish only and werent going to get any live rock you would need to get some bacteria going on your bio filter media before you get your fish.

Bluemorningwind · 04/28/2006, 08:01 AM

Oh...I get it alright.

If we ignore the original post (Seth has given up on this anyway)and imagine a situation where we have a bare glass box filled with fresh saltwater and the required equipment, then first you need to consider introducing the bacteria. Second, we need to consider surface area. Now, we need to consider bio-load.

Where will we get the bacteria from?

By adding some sand, decoration (live rock or not), filter media or whatever from an established tank we will provide the seed for our future population.

Where will they grow?

Any surface, including glass, plastic, rock, sand and whatever else is within the water column.

Where will we get a food source for our population?

From the livestock we intend to add, slowly.

A very simple plan that will provide very good and consistent results. This can not be improved by adding raw ammonia or dead things. It also assumes that you stock slowly, as you should in any case, and that the system is satisfactory.

All the best with it.

fishguy83 · 04/28/2006, 08:34 PM

ok - so you say adding something from an established tank - well that adds the bacteria then ---

but, in a new tank, that isn't able to obtain that bacteria, how does it cycle? (tanks have been started w/o having something in it from an established tank)

- ammonia, which is what the live shrimp, ghost feeding, whatnot produces - will "feed" the bacteria and allow it to grow

these seems right to me, but maybe i'm just crazy?

water just sitting out, in a jug, where (in perfect conditions) it is unable to have a source of ammonia (waste) - will not cycle, will it?

Bluemorningwind · 04/29/2006, 09:44 AM

OK...Anything, including livestock, carries bacteria.

This cycle you continue to push is really a non issue. We're not dealing with LR. There's no reason for, or need for, any type of spike or cycle.

All we need is a viable population of bacteria. It isn't complicated or tricky and is, in fact, the most basic and simple of things when keeping any captive aquatic system. We can hardy stop it really. It happens without our help. Just let it be and it will be fine.

I wish you all the best with it.

Kurt03 · 04/30/2006, 04:40 PM

In a new tank there will always be a spike during its initial cycle. The only way to avoid this that i can think of is if you had media from a established tank that you could use. Even then you could still have a small spike. The only thing we are changing by adding ammonia, shrimp or anything else besides fish is that the spike occurs with out your new expensive live fish in there. You get your bioload up so that you can add your new fish into the established tank. If done properly there would be no or little spike for your new fish. The less stress i can put on a new fish i buy the better imo.

Bluemorningwind · 05/04/2006, 07:37 AM

No, there will not always be a spike.

I strongly doubt that you have any real experience.

Nothing is gained by adding ammonia or dead things.

I hope that you can continue to gain experience and also continue to post as you do.

All the best.

Kurt03 · 05/04/2006, 08:52 AM

there will not be a spike if your not using seeded media from another tank? There has to be a spike while the bacteria is growing to handle the load that you have in the tank, while its populating you will have a buildup of ammonia then when that bacterias there and starts turning it into nitrite you will have a slow build up of that untill there is enough of that bacteria to keep it all converted to nitrate. The bacteria isnt just there when you put the fish in. If theres a way to cycle a new tank with out any media from any other tank, and not have any spikes, please tell me how. I am somewhat new but i do alot of reading.

04/25/2006, 10:55 AM	#1
SethSPST Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: St. Petersburg > Honolulu > New Orleans Posts: 199	Question about tank cycling I started my 75 gallon about a month ago. I don't have live rock and I have cc 2-3" thick on the bottom. My filtation is a wet/dry system with bioballs. I put 2 green chromis and 2 sargent majors (about 1/2" each) in to cycle the tank. about 2 weeks later I added 15 hermits. In the past month my highest ammonia reading was .01. Now it's back to zero. I didn't test for nitrites until about a week ago. I got a zero on my test. I tested my water yesterday and got: ammonia= 0 nitrite= 0 nitrate= 5 So does this mean my tank has cycled? I thought it would take more than a month. Thank for the help. Seth

04/25/2006, 11:54 AM	#3
Avi Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 7,327	I would agree with John. A couple of suggestions, though...I had a three-inch crushed coral substrate in my reef when I set it up, but I found that it was a trap for detritus and led to elevated nitrates in my tank. I ultimately changed over to a shallow sand bed which I like a lot better. Something to think about. Also, you don't mention how much live rock you have, but if it's a substantial amount, you needn't maintain the bio-balls in your system. Those are generally considered to lead to some elevation of nitrates, as well. I'm skeptical that either your substrate or the bio-balls could be elevating your nitrates this quickly....but something is. (That's not to say that 5ppm is dangerous.) Still, you should shoot for zero, so make sure that you aren't overfeeding, you start doing frequent water changes, and you should have a good quality protein skimmer on the reef. That, IMO, is essential. __________________ I'd keep the whole ocean if my den were big enough Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef with 210 lbs. of live rock, Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer, Aquactinic double 250W MH with blue plus t5 support; 58 gallon freshwater planted tank using CO2 and T5s; 30-gallon cube with a few fancy goldfish; and a 110 gallon FOWLR

04/25/2006, 12:11 PM	#6
CarmieJo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NC Posts: 390	If Momma's happy everybody is happy!!! __________________ Carmie Only disasters happen fast! Current Tank Info: 54 gal AGA corner tank with a Solaris LED fixture; NanoCube 24

04/25/2006, 01:50 PM	#10
Avi Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 7,327	I would say that you shouldn't worry about the cycling with the fish...the ones you chose are almost always hardy enough for it and even though it might not be the best idea, you've done it already so...that's life. On the other hand, I don't know that you'd want to keep them in the tank once your convinced it's totally cycled. Damsels can very easily turn out to be nuisance in a fishtank and so you might want to opt for better community fish, though you may be all right with the Chromis. If you don't have live rock, then I'd say you're doing all right with the bio-balls. Lots of people do it successfully that way. Something to supplement the protein skimmer, which you should have working effectively soon, is a good idea. __________________ I'd keep the whole ocean if my den were big enough Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef with 210 lbs. of live rock, Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer, Aquactinic double 250W MH with blue plus t5 support; 58 gallon freshwater planted tank using CO2 and T5s; 30-gallon cube with a few fancy goldfish; and a 110 gallon FOWLR

04/25/2006, 11:45 AM	#2
John@JP Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Menasha WI Posts: 68	Yeah it seems to have. You should still stock slowly for the next few months though.

04/25/2006, 12:00 PM	#4
SethSPST Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: St. Petersburg > Honolulu > New Orleans Posts: 199	I don't have live rock. I'm in the military and will transfer back to the mainland from hawaii in 3 years and it would all die, So I'm waiting to get some when I get back. I'm doing 20% water changes every 2 weeks and just hooked up my AquaC Urchin protien skimmer 3 days ago. I guess it still isn't broken in yet because it's not getting much skim. I had no choice with the crushed coral. My wife really likes the way it looks and as long as she's happy I can spend more money on the tank.

04/25/2006, 12:01 PM	#5
SethSPST Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: St. Petersburg > Honolulu > New Orleans Posts: 199	Thanks for the replies.

04/25/2006, 12:20 PM	#7
aynoT79 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Kinston, NC - USA Posts: 51	Just take your time, the biggest mistake in tank failure is moving too fast and worrying about things.. add one thing at a time and if something tests a lil high dont worry... Tonya

04/25/2006, 01:30 PM	#8
Bluemorningwind Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tokyo Posts: 441	Most of the cycle is due to the die off on live rock. However, you still need a working population of bacteria. Your readings are fine and the fish are still alive, so I guess you have a working population of bacteria. All the best with it.

04/26/2006, 12:14 AM	#12
Bluemorningwind Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tokyo Posts: 441	Without the die off from live rock the ammonia and nitrite levels would have been quite low. Really only the levels created by the fish and food. I doubt the fish suffered at all. You don't need to add fish if you are cycling with live rock, though.

04/26/2006, 04:46 PM	#14
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	is cylcling by dosing ammonia frowned upon with saltwater ? i just know alot of people use it with freshwater tank alot

04/26/2006, 04:58 PM	#15
fishguy83 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern WV Posts: 28	I don't see why it would be frowned upon - except maybe you have to make sure you get pure ammonia, and that you don't overdose so it is hard to cycle- it will eventually go through the nitrogen cycle though - The smell isn't too good either...

04/26/2006, 06:30 PM	#16
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	ive dosed some and after its in the tank or in your dripper i dont notice it. i might not have used very much though idk. but i agree going from the bottle to however your adding it isnt pleasent.

04/27/2006, 12:13 AM	#17
Bluemorningwind Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tokyo Posts: 441	An ammonia spike isn't needed to establish a viable population of bacteria. A soon as a spike subsides the bacteria begin to die and the population becomes balanced in terms of the bio-load. In fact, a spike of any kind is undesirable. We want to establish an environment that is capable of supporting the fish and other creatures that we want to keep and that is all. A large spike will postpone these conditions and we gain nothing in return. A spike is more of an issue when adding large amounts of LR that's been shipped and there's a lot of die-off as a result. Even still, you should manually remove as much die off as possible prior to adding it. This system will gain nothing by creating an ammonia spike and doing so by adding raw ammonia or dead prawns is, in fact, harmful and unnecessary. Just leave it alone and it will be fine. If you have to play with things, you could think about adding a fuge, auto top off or what ever, but please don't worry about the bacteria, that's all fine.

04/27/2006, 09:33 PM	#19
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	I dont think he got the part that we were talking about setting up a new tank. Without live rock or anything. " This system will gain nothing by creating an ammonia spike and doing so by adding raw ammonia or dead prawns is, in fact, harmful and unnecessary. " I was talking about adding ammonia to a fresh tank to get the cycle going without live rock being added yet. Say if you were doing fish only and werent going to get any live rock you would need to get some bacteria going on your bio filter media before you get your fish.

04/28/2006, 08:01 AM	#20
Bluemorningwind Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tokyo Posts: 441	Oh...I get it alright. If we ignore the original post (Seth has given up on this anyway)and imagine a situation where we have a bare glass box filled with fresh saltwater and the required equipment, then first you need to consider introducing the bacteria. Second, we need to consider surface area. Now, we need to consider bio-load. Where will we get the bacteria from? By adding some sand, decoration (live rock or not), filter media or whatever from an established tank we will provide the seed for our future population. Where will they grow? Any surface, including glass, plastic, rock, sand and whatever else is within the water column. Where will we get a food source for our population? From the livestock we intend to add, slowly. A very simple plan that will provide very good and consistent results. This can not be improved by adding raw ammonia or dead things. It also assumes that you stock slowly, as you should in any case, and that the system is satisfactory. All the best with it.

04/28/2006, 08:34 PM	#21
fishguy83 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern WV Posts: 28	ok - so you say adding something from an established tank - well that adds the bacteria then --- but, in a new tank, that isn't able to obtain that bacteria, how does it cycle? (tanks have been started w/o having something in it from an established tank) - ammonia, which is what the live shrimp, ghost feeding, whatnot produces - will "feed" the bacteria and allow it to grow these seems right to me, but maybe i'm just crazy? water just sitting out, in a jug, where (in perfect conditions) it is unable to have a source of ammonia (waste) - will not cycle, will it?

04/29/2006, 09:44 AM	#22
Bluemorningwind Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tokyo Posts: 441	OK...Anything, including livestock, carries bacteria. This cycle you continue to push is really a non issue. We're not dealing with LR. There's no reason for, or need for, any type of spike or cycle. All we need is a viable population of bacteria. It isn't complicated or tricky and is, in fact, the most basic and simple of things when keeping any captive aquatic system. We can hardy stop it really. It happens without our help. Just let it be and it will be fine. I wish you all the best with it.

04/30/2006, 04:40 PM	#23
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	In a new tank there will always be a spike during its initial cycle. The only way to avoid this that i can think of is if you had media from a established tank that you could use. Even then you could still have a small spike. The only thing we are changing by adding ammonia, shrimp or anything else besides fish is that the spike occurs with out your new expensive live fish in there. You get your bioload up so that you can add your new fish into the established tank. If done properly there would be no or little spike for your new fish. The less stress i can put on a new fish i buy the better imo.

05/04/2006, 07:37 AM	#24
Bluemorningwind Moved On Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tokyo Posts: 441	No, there will not always be a spike. I strongly doubt that you have any real experience. Nothing is gained by adding ammonia or dead things. I hope that you can continue to gain experience and also continue to post as you do. All the best.

05/04/2006, 08:52 AM	#25
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	there will not be a spike if your not using seeded media from another tank? There has to be a spike while the bacteria is growing to handle the load that you have in the tank, while its populating you will have a buildup of ammonia then when that bacterias there and starts turning it into nitrite you will have a slow build up of that untill there is enough of that bacteria to keep it all converted to nitrate. The bacteria isnt just there when you put the fish in. If theres a way to cycle a new tank with out any media from any other tank, and not have any spikes, please tell me how. I am somewhat new but i do alot of reading.