Live sand

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 01:45 PM

Hey everyone

My freshwater fish just got moved from the 150gal to the 55gal tank and I am going to start building my reef in my 150gal. I use crushed coral in my 46gall reef right now and thinking about going with live sand in my 150gal.

My questions are:

1. What are the benefits if any of using live sand compared to crushed coral?

2. What are the best types of live sand to use? If there is really only one type of sand what do you think is the best and where could I get some for a reasonable price?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

kraze3 · 06/02/2006, 02:02 PM

1. CC traps nitrates, not recommended. LS provides beneficial bacteria and critters. Sand is also better for any critters that like borrowing or digging.

2. IMO buying LS is a waste, the life in the bagged LS is minimal. Your much better off using dry sand and seeding it with some LS from a one or more fellow reefers. You will end up with a better collection of bacteria etc.
If you choose to go the dry sand route. There are names like southdown and oldcastle if you can find them. Kolorscape has also been used succesfully by many hobbiests. Its packaged by old castle and you should be able to find it at a local HD or walmart. I use kolorscape in my tanks.

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 02:08 PM

Crushed coral is generally considered a lousy substrate in SW ... tends to harbor debris - not considered friendly to the critters that tend to live in the sand - and harbors a small fraction of the beneficial bacteria a smaller grained substrate can handle. The only SW tank where I think this make sense is predator type tank which is by nature a "dirty tank" and the substrate tends to need regular deep cleaning ... other than that I would suggest staying away from CC.

Live sand definitions vary. To many experienced aquarist live sand is any sand that comes from a mature tank .. its loaded with beneficial infauna (pods/bristleworms, spaghetti worms, etc) as well as the beneficial bacteria. Live sand sold in bags is simply sand that the mfg has added a bit of bacteria and ammonia and many would say its a waste of money.

The downside of using sand from a mature tank is the potential for that sand to carry disease. If you take sand from someones tank that has an ich problem you have a signficant chance of transfering that problem to your tank. Its OK to use sand from another tank when your setting up your new tank .. just make sure you don't add fish for at least 5 weeks - ich need fish to perpetuate their life cycle and a fishless tank will wipe out the ich.

Hope this helps.

kurt72 · 06/02/2006, 02:14 PM

if i may jump in here, i started with crushed coral, and i all i read is negative stuff. bout 20 minutes ago i had to move something around and a bunch of smelly "gunk" protruded form the CC bed. nasty. plus my watchman gody doesn't like to sift through it cuz i think the coral is too big for it's lil' goby gills. how would you go about adding sand to existing CC? can i use some base sand on mixed with the CC, or get some live sand and mix it with CC. should i take everything out to add it. putting the CC was easy cuz there was noting in there. thanks!!

kraze3 · 06/02/2006, 02:20 PM

dont want to vary away from cantfindnemo's thread but you can mix the cc and sand if thats what you like, i prefer just sand. If you want to remove it I would siphon it out over a few water changes then use the pvc method to add sand afterwards.

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 02:21 PM

Kurt

Your best bet is to remove the CC .. placing a finer substrate on top of CC is a short term cosmetic fix and the finer substrate will always end up on the bottom.

Switching out substrates is kinda of a pain .. but with a bit of planning you can get it done in a pretty short period of time. Many will remove & save most of the water (new rubbermaid trashcan comes in handy) .. place your LR in the rubbermaid .. put your livestock in a suitable container .. remove the crushed coral .. toss the residual nasty water .. put in your new substrate .. then LR/water and eventually the livestock when water temp/specs OK.

If you save some of the top layer of your old CC in some nylon stockings you can then place those stocking on top of your new substrate .. will help seed the new substrate and help mitigate water quality issues. You can toss the stockings after a couple weeks.

Hope this helps.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 02:29 PM

So since my tank is just starting out I could use "dead" sand or what ever you want to call it, and add live rock around 150lbs worth and all the little oraganizims that live in the rock will soon get all in my sand making the sand "live".

Am I confused or is this correct?

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 02:37 PM

That's largely true .. live rock has some and perhaps most of the common infauna that people associate with live sand .. however its not a mutually exclusive decision and if you have access to a mature tank a sand infusion combined with the proper waiting period may also be beneficial.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kevin2000
That's largely true .. live rock has some and perhaps most of the common infauna that people associate with live sand .. however its not a mutually exclusive decision and if you have access to a mature tank a sand infusion combined with the proper waiting period may also be beneficial.

So adding a 150lbs of uncured rock, dead sand, and some "live"sand from another reef would be a ok, good, or great start?

And how much "live" sand would I need from another tank in your opinion........its for 150gal.

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 02:55 PM

If your a patient person that's a pretty good method for starting many reef tanks .. you will likely maximize the beneficial infauna within the tank. The use of uncured live rock will provide the best potential for "life" but will also provide you with the greatest amt. of dead/dying material so you are going to have greater water quality issues until that dead/dying stuff has fully decomposed - no big deal but something to understand and plan for.

You don't need any special amt. of live sand .. the greater the volume the greater likelihood for infauna diversity .. sometimes a very small amt. works .. sometimes more is better. Often a small sand infusion from a variety of tanks is more beneficial than a large one from one tank.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kevin2000
If your a patient person that's a pretty good method for starting many reef tanks .. you will likely maximize the beneficial infauna within the tank. The use of uncured live rock will provide the best potential for "life" but will also provide you with the greatest amt. of dead/dying material so you are going to have greater water quality issues until that dead/dying stuff has fully decomposed - no big deal but something to understand and plan for.

"maximize the beneficial infauna within the tank" sorry that hit the wall right behind me over my head?

Yes it will create dead/dying material as you say but if I use this for my cycle it should be all good then right, I mean my water quality should not be an issue after I cycle righ?

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 03:10 PM

One way of thinking about infauna is to visualize thousands of super small critters within a tank that act like a hidden clean up crew and help break down debris and maintain/accelerate the biological functions of the tank. In general your striving to maximize the diversity and quantity of these critters.

Many people purchase uncured live rock to try and obtain corals and other "hidden treasures" within the live rock. Unfortunately uncured live rock has a boatload of dead/dying material still on the live rock which often ends up with some extreme ammonia levels (much higher than cured LR) .. and if you don't mitigate those ammonia spikes with some water changes your going to end up killing off any of those "hidden treasures" - that make using uncured rock kinda of a PIA for many people.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 03:23 PM

So would it be best to use cured live rock? Or is there a draw back to doing that as well.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 03:24 PM

Also how much live sand would I need to get from an established tank to help with my dead sand?

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 03:28 PM

See my prior post ... must have made an edit after you read.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 03:30 PM

Sorry I see it now........

So would it be best to use cured live rock? Or is there a draw back to doing that as well.

kraze3 · 06/02/2006, 03:34 PM

if your starting a new tank uncured is fine. It will help your tankt o cycle just watch ammonia levels and be ready for water changes. I would suggest keeping the sand out while curing the LR in tank, it will make it easier to siphon off any gunk that comes off the rock. Once the gunk stops comming off you can add your sand around the rock. This will laos help prevent rockslides if you get any borrowing critters

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cantfindnemo
So would it be best to use cured live rock? Or is there a draw back to doing that as well.

I think that most people are disappointed with the lack of corals and "hidden treasures" found of uncured live rock ... I suspect that there a very few people who have ever gotten anything they could not have readily purchased for about $10 at their local reef club frag swap .. but that's just my opinion. Some purchase just because uncured is less expensive than cured ... that's a matter of finance and one has to weight his wallet with the "smell" of decomposing material and the expenses of additional water changes.

Long ago I switched to using inexpensive base rock combined with a few pieces of good cured rock ... that combined with some live sand infusions from a few tanks gives me an inexpensive setup with a boatload of diverse infauna.

cantfindnemo · 06/02/2006, 03:39 PM

I sure do appricate all this info kev thanks alot

If I were to buy approx 180lbs of cured live rock where would you suggest buying.....with a good price and great product?

bertoni · 06/02/2006, 03:40 PM

Whether or not live sand helps much depends on your goals for it. If you want a truly live sandbed, I would recommend stocking with some good-quality kits like those from ipsf.com or the refugium kit from InlandAquatics.com. BillsReef.com also gets good reviews for live sand. Getting some live sand from other reefers can be a good idea, and if you don't want a live DSB, that'll probably work well enough.

I would avoid mixing sand and CC since the CC will work its way to the top over time, kill the sand, and become the general nuisance that I found it to be.

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cantfindnemo
If I were to buy approx 180lbs of cured live rock where would you suggest buying.....with a good price and great product?

Buying live rock on the internet is often a big crap shoot .. first off shipping cost is a significant issue for many and one of the first things you need to determine .. you should also note that your "cured" LR is usually shipped "dry" which generally means you pay the price for "cured" but get semi cured since often your going to get signficantly more die off than purchasing cured rock locally.

I suggest you look locally first .. check your LFS to determine the price and quality ( a 180 lb order should give you a discount)... then look for other reefers in your area, lastly look on line and use a fair amt. of consumer wariness. You might do a bit of research on using base rock as well .. hirocks.com and similar outfits may provide some of your needs and your wallet may thank you.

Good luck .. hope this helps.

kevin2000 · 06/02/2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
If you want a truly live sandbed, I would recommend stocking with some good-quality kits like those from ipsf.com or the refugium kit from InlandAquatics.com. BillsReef.com also gets good reviews for live sand. Getting some live sand from other reefers can be a good idea, and if you don't want a live DSB, that'll probably work well enough.

I don't agree with your inference that getting mature sand from another aquarium is not suitable for a DSB. I have kept DSB for at least 25 yrs and have tried some of the infauna kits over the yrs .. and to be frank the infauna kits will leave you about $100 short and provide nominal benefit. Take a look at whats in the infauna kits your recommending and tell me what you think is worth the incremental $100?

bertoni · 06/02/2006, 09:10 PM

Well, I think it is. Having looked at my sand under a microscope, I'd be willing to try a lot of things to improve the diversity.

kevin2000 · 06/03/2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
Well, I think it is. Having looked at my sand under a microscope, I'd be willing to try a lot of things to improve the diversity.

I don't dispute that diversity is nice and even essential .. what I don't agree with is your prior statement implying that obtaining sand infusions from another mature tank doesn't give you live sand suitable for a DSB. There have been plenty of successful DSB tanks long before the commercial outfits you recommended started selling their products - and looking at your substrate with a microscope (probably Dr. Rons old class) has absolutely zip to do with supporting your statement.

bertoni · 06/04/2006, 12:27 AM

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd like to know where the diversity originates, if nobody every buys any live sand. As far as seeing what the sand contains, I certainly think it was quite enlightening. Have you ever done that?

06/02/2006, 01:45 PM	#1
cantfindnemo Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 196	Live sand Hey everyone My freshwater fish just got moved from the 150gal to the 55gal tank and I am going to start building my reef in my 150gal. I use crushed coral in my 46gall reef right now and thinking about going with live sand in my 150gal. My questions are: 1. What are the benefits if any of using live sand compared to crushed coral? 2. What are the best types of live sand to use? If there is really only one type of sand what do you think is the best and where could I get some for a reasonable price? Thanks in advance for any responses.

06/02/2006, 02:14 PM	#4
kurt72 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Bumfuqd Egypt Posts: 181	how to add if i may jump in here, i started with crushed coral, and i all i read is negative stuff. bout 20 minutes ago i had to move something around and a bunch of smelly "gunk" protruded form the CC bed. nasty. plus my watchman gody doesn't like to sift through it cuz i think the coral is too big for it's lil' goby gills. how would you go about adding sand to existing CC? can i use some base sand on mixed with the CC, or get some live sand and mix it with CC. should i take everything out to add it. putting the CC was easy cuz there was noting in there. thanks!!

06/02/2006, 03:40 PM	#20
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Whether or not live sand helps much depends on your goals for it. If you want a truly live sandbed, I would recommend stocking with some good-quality kits like those from ipsf.com or the refugium kit from InlandAquatics.com. BillsReef.com also gets good reviews for live sand. Getting some live sand from other reefers can be a good idea, and if you don't want a live DSB, that'll probably work well enough. I would avoid mixing sand and CC since the CC will work its way to the top over time, kill the sand, and become the general nuisance that I found it to be. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/02/2006, 09:10 PM	#23
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, I think it is. Having looked at my sand under a microscope, I'd be willing to try a lot of things to improve the diversity. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/04/2006, 12:27 AM	#25
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd like to know where the diversity originates, if nobody every buys any live sand. As far as seeing what the sand contains, I certainly think it was quite enlightening. Have you ever done that? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/02/2006, 02:02 PM	#2
kraze3 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: RI Posts: 2,373	1. CC traps nitrates, not recommended. LS provides beneficial bacteria and critters. Sand is also better for any critters that like borrowing or digging. 2. IMO buying LS is a waste, the life in the bagged LS is minimal. Your much better off using dry sand and seeding it with some LS from a one or more fellow reefers. You will end up with a better collection of bacteria etc. If you choose to go the dry sand route. There are names like southdown and oldcastle if you can find them. Kolorscape has also been used succesfully by many hobbiests. Its packaged by old castle and you should be able to find it at a local HD or walmart. I use kolorscape in my tanks.

06/02/2006, 02:08 PM	#3
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	Crushed coral is generally considered a lousy substrate in SW ... tends to harbor debris - not considered friendly to the critters that tend to live in the sand - and harbors a small fraction of the beneficial bacteria a smaller grained substrate can handle. The only SW tank where I think this make sense is predator type tank which is by nature a "dirty tank" and the substrate tends to need regular deep cleaning ... other than that I would suggest staying away from CC. Live sand definitions vary. To many experienced aquarist live sand is any sand that comes from a mature tank .. its loaded with beneficial infauna (pods/bristleworms, spaghetti worms, etc) as well as the beneficial bacteria. Live sand sold in bags is simply sand that the mfg has added a bit of bacteria and ammonia and many would say its a waste of money. The downside of using sand from a mature tank is the potential for that sand to carry disease. If you take sand from someones tank that has an ich problem you have a signficant chance of transfering that problem to your tank. Its OK to use sand from another tank when your setting up your new tank .. just make sure you don't add fish for at least 5 weeks - ich need fish to perpetuate their life cycle and a fishless tank will wipe out the ich. Hope this helps.

06/02/2006, 02:20 PM	#5
kraze3 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: RI Posts: 2,373	dont want to vary away from cantfindnemo's thread but you can mix the cc and sand if thats what you like, i prefer just sand. If you want to remove it I would siphon it out over a few water changes then use the pvc method to add sand afterwards.

06/02/2006, 02:21 PM	#6
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	Kurt Your best bet is to remove the CC .. placing a finer substrate on top of CC is a short term cosmetic fix and the finer substrate will always end up on the bottom. Switching out substrates is kinda of a pain .. but with a bit of planning you can get it done in a pretty short period of time. Many will remove & save most of the water (new rubbermaid trashcan comes in handy) .. place your LR in the rubbermaid .. put your livestock in a suitable container .. remove the crushed coral .. toss the residual nasty water .. put in your new substrate .. then LR/water and eventually the livestock when water temp/specs OK. If you save some of the top layer of your old CC in some nylon stockings you can then place those stocking on top of your new substrate .. will help seed the new substrate and help mitigate water quality issues. You can toss the stockings after a couple weeks. Hope this helps.

06/02/2006, 02:29 PM	#7
cantfindnemo Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 196	So since my tank is just starting out I could use "dead" sand or what ever you want to call it, and add live rock around 150lbs worth and all the little oraganizims that live in the rock will soon get all in my sand making the sand "live". Am I confused or is this correct?

06/02/2006, 02:37 PM	#8
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	That's largely true .. live rock has some and perhaps most of the common infauna that people associate with live sand .. however its not a mutually exclusive decision and if you have access to a mature tank a sand infusion combined with the proper waiting period may also be beneficial.

06/02/2006, 02:55 PM	#10
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	If your a patient person that's a pretty good method for starting many reef tanks .. you will likely maximize the beneficial infauna within the tank. The use of uncured live rock will provide the best potential for "life" but will also provide you with the greatest amt. of dead/dying material so you are going to have greater water quality issues until that dead/dying stuff has fully decomposed - no big deal but something to understand and plan for. You don't need any special amt. of live sand .. the greater the volume the greater likelihood for infauna diversity .. sometimes a very small amt. works .. sometimes more is better. Often a small sand infusion from a variety of tanks is more beneficial than a large one from one tank.

06/02/2006, 03:10 PM	#12
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	One way of thinking about infauna is to visualize thousands of super small critters within a tank that act like a hidden clean up crew and help break down debris and maintain/accelerate the biological functions of the tank. In general your striving to maximize the diversity and quantity of these critters. Many people purchase uncured live rock to try and obtain corals and other "hidden treasures" within the live rock. Unfortunately uncured live rock has a boatload of dead/dying material still on the live rock which often ends up with some extreme ammonia levels (much higher than cured LR) .. and if you don't mitigate those ammonia spikes with some water changes your going to end up killing off any of those "hidden treasures" - that make using uncured rock kinda of a PIA for many people.

06/02/2006, 03:23 PM	#13
cantfindnemo Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 196	So would it be best to use cured live rock? Or is there a draw back to doing that as well.

06/02/2006, 03:24 PM	#14
cantfindnemo Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 196	Also how much live sand would I need to get from an established tank to help with my dead sand?

06/02/2006, 03:28 PM	#15
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	See my prior post ... must have made an edit after you read.

06/02/2006, 03:30 PM	#16
cantfindnemo Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 196	Sorry I see it now........ So would it be best to use cured live rock? Or is there a draw back to doing that as well.

06/02/2006, 03:34 PM	#17
kraze3 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: RI Posts: 2,373	if your starting a new tank uncured is fine. It will help your tankt o cycle just watch ammonia levels and be ready for water changes. I would suggest keeping the sand out while curing the LR in tank, it will make it easier to siphon off any gunk that comes off the rock. Once the gunk stops comming off you can add your sand around the rock. This will laos help prevent rockslides if you get any borrowing critters

06/02/2006, 03:39 PM	#19
cantfindnemo Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 196	I sure do appricate all this info kev thanks alot If I were to buy approx 180lbs of cured live rock where would you suggest buying.....with a good price and great product?