Tank is HOT!

crabbyKris · 08/22/2006, 12:18 AM

I have been having some problems keeping the temp stable in my reef tank.

I have a 70 gal Oceanic with a Megaflow and a 20 gal sump. There is 500 gpm of current flowing up from the sump, with an additional 350 gpm that runs through a sqwd in a closed loop system that starts up with the atenic.

The 96 watt atenic retro kit comes on at 9:00 am and turns off at 8:00 pm, it sits about 3 inches above the tank. The 250 watt metal halide comes on at 1:00 and turns off at 4:00 pm, the light fixture sits 7 inches above the tank. The canopy is completely open air in the back, with a 4" Ice Cap variable speed fan that blows directly on the MH fixture.

The tank stand is completely enclosed with a backing of plywood, with air holes in the back sheet by the shelf where the two ballasts are held. The sump is covered with lexan and thus completely "enclosed" to prevent evaporation. The top of the tank is covered with the Oceanic glass top to prevent evaporation, but I cut the plastic hinge of the glass top away directly below the MH fixture so the two pieces of glass have about a quarter inch opening to vent the space between the glass and the water.

The tank is rarely at 78 degrees, and climbs sometimes to 85 degrees and holds there for extended periods of time. The lights have been off now for at least two and half hours and my new Coralife digital thermometer still reads 85 degrees. The sensor for the thermometer is in the display about six inches from the water line. I live in the mountains with a moderate climate, the temp in the house is rarely above 75, in fact this morning it was downright chilly and the tank still read 80 degrees after sitting all night with nothing but the moonlight.

I use a Wan titanium heater, but experimented with unplugging it completely and showed no reduction of temperature in the tank. The tank and most of these parts are new, 8 months. I waited to post this until I got the fan installed in the hood. The inhabitants (green, red, and hairy mushrooms, button polyps, zoos, condi anenome, yellow tang, clown, pin cushion urchin, and a boatload of rock) have been with me for three years. They seem fine through all of this, the zoos don't open extremely big but are still moving and reproducing. I purchased a nice piece of frogspawn that destroyed itself immediatly, most likely because of the temp. and now I am really hesitant to add any new inhabitants. I have been successful adding a cleaner and peppermint shrimp (the peppermint ate all of the aiptaisa...YEA!), as well as a brittle and sand sifting star.

I do not want to buy a chiller, and most of all do not have room for it. I like the enclosure tops for the tank and sump because I can not run a fresh water top off to the tank and have limited time for maintenance.

Any ideas what is creating this heat and causing it to sustain despite a relatively low room temperature?
Can you give me any techniques for controlling the temp?

HDAlien · 08/22/2006, 08:46 AM

Do you have any pumps running that could be contributing to your heat problem? If it's being caused by your enclosed lights and enclosed sump then you may have no other choice than to go to a chiller.

mdt178 · 08/22/2006, 09:20 AM

heat is trapped in your tank, sump and stand. You need to encourage evaporation to keep temp lower. Remove all covers and get yourself a clip-on fan to blow across the water surface.
Some will argue that regular temp in the mid 80s is fine. But the swing from 78-85 is def not good.

Bebo77 · 08/22/2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mdt178
heat is trapped in your tank, sump and stand. You need to encourage evaporation to keep temp lower. Remove all covers and get yourself a clip-on fan to blow across the water surface.
Some will argue that regular temp in the mid 80s is fine. But the swing from 78-85 is def not good.

i agree

crabbyKris · 08/22/2006, 10:17 AM

It makes sense now that the heat is trapped and causing the sustained problem. After sitting overnight in my chilly house its still 82.

I'll give it a run without covers and see if that controls things.

Three pumps, Rio HP 12, Rio 2500, and skimmer Turbo. Are these contributing to temp. gain?

LOTUS50GOD · 08/22/2006, 10:32 AM

Our tanks are significant investments in time and money. I would add a chiller and maybe even an aquacontroller.

SDguy · 08/22/2006, 10:37 AM

Installing fans both in the canopy and in large holes made in the back of my enclosed stand really helped a lot. Even without a chiller, a controller is a good idea since you can then regulate the fans by tank temperature.

CeeGee · 08/22/2006, 11:14 AM

AC Jr. and a fan.

If that doesn't work AC Jr. and a chiller. Problem solved.

RichConley · 08/22/2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crabbyKris
The tank stand is completely enclosed with a backing of plywood, with air holes in the back sheet by the shelf where the two ballasts are held. The sump is covered with lexan and thus completely "enclosed" to prevent evaporation. The top of the tank is covered with the Oceanic glass top to prevent evaporation, but I cut the plastic hinge of the glass top away directly below the MH fixture so the two pieces of glass have about a quarter inch opening to vent the space between the glass and the water.

And you're asking about heat issues? You've done everything you can to trap heat in.

RichConley · 08/22/2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LOTUS50GOD
Our tanks are significant investments in time and money. I would add a chiller and maybe even an aquacontroller.

Above has posted exactly that same post everytime I see him..makes me think he has stock in aquacontrollers.

SDguy · 08/22/2006, 11:57 AM

I agree with Rich. You need evaporation to cool your system. Believe me, I learned by trial and error. You can't have closed in canopies and stands, without a chiller. And then you'd be putting all your eggs in one basket. Too risky. Sure you'll have to add lots of fresh water for evaporation, but look at it this way, an auto topoff system is a lot cheaper than a chiller with controller :-)

scarter · 08/22/2006, 11:58 AM

take all of the covers off, pu t a fan to run across the tank surface. open the doors to the stand. leave them open for a couple days. maybe add a fan to blow on the sump, if that diesent work you can also remove the ballasts from under the stand.

allenpantino · 08/22/2006, 12:20 PM

I live in SO Cal. and its been really hot this summer and I have a clip on fan pointing into my sump and a fan blowing across the top of the tank , no covers and my temp is always about 78-81 degrees but a chiller will def. solve all problems

crabbyKris · 08/22/2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
Above has posted exactly that same post everytime I see him..makes me think he has stock in aquacontrollers.

The obvious is never obvious, until its obvious.

My stand builder, a cabinetmaker by trade, insisted on the backing to the stand to increase the shear strength. I did not realize that it would be a heat trap, even with the vent holes by the ballasts.

Can anyone recommend a very quiet fan to install in the back-sheet of the stand.

Thank you!

crabbyKris · 08/22/2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
And you're asking about heat issues? You've done everything you can to trap heat in.

This is the one I meant to reference:

The obvious is never obvious, until its obvious.

ERICN · 08/28/2006, 10:30 AM

man i would cut out as much as you can on the back of the stand and stick a big ole 20inch box fan blowing in there

RichConley · 08/28/2006, 11:25 AM

Dont cut out the whole thing.

I learned something when I was working on PCs. My chip would run about 10' hotter with the case off than it did with the case on. The case was well designed, and the chip got much better airflow with the case on.

Cut a hole large enough to mount a decent sized fan.

ERICN · 08/28/2006, 12:23 PM

No offense man but im sure the people that designed a lot of the comp cases put alot of resources into R&D on effective cooling of the case but the carpenter that was building the stand was just building it for sheer strength.

RichConley · 08/28/2006, 01:53 PM

right, but my point is that sometimes running the fan, and turning the case into basically a wind tunnel works a lot better than just leaving it open. When you just leave it open, your fan is pushing out a lot of air that is fresh and cool, as well as some thats hot. When you close it up and put a fan, you're pulling out ALL hot air, and replacingit with cool air.

Sangogo · 08/28/2006, 08:11 PM

While it looks aesthetically blah, my LFS pressured me into buying an actual wood stand that has no backing and has several wide horizontal slots cut on the right door of the cabinet specifically to aid in efficiency of the chiller. It doesn't look nearly as stylish as the plywood/fake wood cabinet, but my chiller doesn't run nearly often as you would expect in summer (and I have it set to run as soon as the water hits 25 C, which is lower than default settings) and won't rot away as quickly as the pretty ones would have.

If you can bear to do this (aesthetically, anyway), it seems like having openings on both sides of your cabinent would be helpful. Though I'm sure how large those openings should be is debateable.

scarter · 08/29/2006, 09:09 PM

you can get some pretty cool looking vents form HD. They sell the large ones that are designed to be used for ac intake. they measure about 2ft by 2ft. If you cant find the color you want you can spray paint them. they make all kinds of cool looking textured spray paints

dcombs44 · 08/29/2006, 09:38 PM

As far as strength of the stand, most of the weight of the tank is supported in the corners. My 55 gallon stand has no back in it, and things are fine. There is a brace in each corner on the back side and that's all the support the is given on the back. I also agree with everyone else, that evaporation is a good thing. Plus the open air allows the water to oxygenate better. Isn't that why people use things like eggcrate instead of glass covers?

scarter · 09/01/2006, 11:10 PM

where is the OP? whats going on with the tank?

08/22/2006, 12:18 AM	#1
crabbyKris Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Truckee, CA Posts: 16	Tank is HOT! I have been having some problems keeping the temp stable in my reef tank. I have a 70 gal Oceanic with a Megaflow and a 20 gal sump. There is 500 gpm of current flowing up from the sump, with an additional 350 gpm that runs through a sqwd in a closed loop system that starts up with the atenic. The 96 watt atenic retro kit comes on at 9:00 am and turns off at 8:00 pm, it sits about 3 inches above the tank. The 250 watt metal halide comes on at 1:00 and turns off at 4:00 pm, the light fixture sits 7 inches above the tank. The canopy is completely open air in the back, with a 4" Ice Cap variable speed fan that blows directly on the MH fixture. The tank stand is completely enclosed with a backing of plywood, with air holes in the back sheet by the shelf where the two ballasts are held. The sump is covered with lexan and thus completely "enclosed" to prevent evaporation. The top of the tank is covered with the Oceanic glass top to prevent evaporation, but I cut the plastic hinge of the glass top away directly below the MH fixture so the two pieces of glass have about a quarter inch opening to vent the space between the glass and the water. The tank is rarely at 78 degrees, and climbs sometimes to 85 degrees and holds there for extended periods of time. The lights have been off now for at least two and half hours and my new Coralife digital thermometer still reads 85 degrees. The sensor for the thermometer is in the display about six inches from the water line. I live in the mountains with a moderate climate, the temp in the house is rarely above 75, in fact this morning it was downright chilly and the tank still read 80 degrees after sitting all night with nothing but the moonlight. I use a Wan titanium heater, but experimented with unplugging it completely and showed no reduction of temperature in the tank. The tank and most of these parts are new, 8 months. I waited to post this until I got the fan installed in the hood. The inhabitants (green, red, and hairy mushrooms, button polyps, zoos, condi anenome, yellow tang, clown, pin cushion urchin, and a boatload of rock) have been with me for three years. They seem fine through all of this, the zoos don't open extremely big but are still moving and reproducing. I purchased a nice piece of frogspawn that destroyed itself immediatly, most likely because of the temp. and now I am really hesitant to add any new inhabitants. I have been successful adding a cleaner and peppermint shrimp (the peppermint ate all of the aiptaisa...YEA!), as well as a brittle and sand sifting star. I do not want to buy a chiller, and most of all do not have room for it. I like the enclosure tops for the tank and sump because I can not run a fresh water top off to the tank and have limited time for maintenance. Any ideas what is creating this heat and causing it to sustain despite a relatively low room temperature? Can you give me any techniques for controlling the temp?

08/22/2006, 08:46 AM	#2
HDAlien Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 476	Do you have any pumps running that could be contributing to your heat problem? If it's being caused by your enclosed lights and enclosed sump then you may have no other choice than to go to a chiller. __________________ ¡ʞuɐʇ ʎɯ ǝʌo1 ı Current Tank Info: 220 gal. reef

08/22/2006, 10:17 AM	#5
crabbyKris Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Truckee, CA Posts: 16	Heat Trap It makes sense now that the heat is trapped and causing the sustained problem. After sitting overnight in my chilly house its still 82. I'll give it a run without covers and see if that controls things. Three pumps, Rio HP 12, Rio 2500, and skimmer Turbo. Are these contributing to temp. gain?

08/22/2006, 10:32 AM	#6
LOTUS50GOD Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,210	Our tanks are significant investments in time and money. I would add a chiller and maybe even an aquacontroller. __________________ Vertex Alpha 300 Skimmer, AI SOL Blue, Neptune Apex Controlled 360 gallon Reef Current Tank Info: born 6/26/2008- 340 reef + 100 fuge, 300lbs of figi LR

08/22/2006, 10:37 AM	#7
SDguy Fish heads unite! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 23,384	Installing fans both in the canopy and in large holes made in the back of my enclosed stand really helped a lot. Even without a chiller, a controller is a good idea since you can then regulate the fans by tank temperature. __________________ Peter SDMAS member Marine tanks since 1989. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º> Current Tank Info: 240g butterfly and angel FOWLR. 15g QT.

08/22/2006, 09:20 AM	#3
mdt178 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 655	heat is trapped in your tank, sump and stand. You need to encourage evaporation to keep temp lower. Remove all covers and get yourself a clip-on fan to blow across the water surface. Some will argue that regular temp in the mid 80s is fine. But the swing from 78-85 is def not good.

08/22/2006, 11:14 AM	#8
CeeGee Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 3,272	AC Jr. and a fan. If that doesn't work AC Jr. and a chiller. Problem solved. __________________ My algae WAS special. Current Tank Info: 75 gallon display, 40 gallon breeder sump, RLSS R6i, ATI Powermodule, Apex, Ecotech MP40's

08/22/2006, 11:57 AM	#11
SDguy Fish heads unite! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 23,384	I agree with Rich. You need evaporation to cool your system. Believe me, I learned by trial and error. You can't have closed in canopies and stands, without a chiller. And then you'd be putting all your eggs in one basket. Too risky. Sure you'll have to add lots of fresh water for evaporation, but look at it this way, an auto topoff system is a lot cheaper than a chiller with controller :-) __________________ Peter SDMAS member Marine tanks since 1989. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º> Current Tank Info: 240g butterfly and angel FOWLR. 15g QT.

08/22/2006, 11:58 AM	#12
scarter Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 605	take all of the covers off, pu t a fan to run across the tank surface. open the doors to the stand. leave them open for a couple days. maybe add a fan to blow on the sump, if that diesent work you can also remove the ballasts from under the stand. __________________ My name is Shane and I am a reefaholic, I have a disease and they don't know what to call it. Current Tank Info: what tank?

08/22/2006, 12:20 PM	#13
allenpantino Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 103	I live in SO Cal. and its been really hot this summer and I have a clip on fan pointing into my sump and a fan blowing across the top of the tank , no covers and my temp is always about 78-81 degrees but a chiller will def. solve all problems

08/28/2006, 10:30 AM	#16
ERICN Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: MISSOURI Posts: 310	man i would cut out as much as you can on the back of the stand and stick a big ole 20inch box fan blowing in there

08/28/2006, 11:25 AM	#17
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	Dont cut out the whole thing. I learned something when I was working on PCs. My chip would run about 10' hotter with the case off than it did with the case on. The case was well designed, and the chip got much better airflow with the case on. Cut a hole large enough to mount a decent sized fan. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/28/2006, 12:23 PM	#18
ERICN Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: MISSOURI Posts: 310	No offense man but im sure the people that designed a lot of the comp cases put alot of resources into R&D on effective cooling of the case but the carpenter that was building the stand was just building it for sheer strength.

08/28/2006, 01:53 PM	#19
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	right, but my point is that sometimes running the fan, and turning the case into basically a wind tunnel works a lot better than just leaving it open. When you just leave it open, your fan is pushing out a lot of air that is fresh and cool, as well as some thats hot. When you close it up and put a fan, you're pulling out ALL hot air, and replacingit with cool air. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/28/2006, 08:11 PM	#20
Sangogo Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 351	While it looks aesthetically blah, my LFS pressured me into buying an actual wood stand that has no backing and has several wide horizontal slots cut on the right door of the cabinet specifically to aid in efficiency of the chiller. It doesn't look nearly as stylish as the plywood/fake wood cabinet, but my chiller doesn't run nearly often as you would expect in summer (and I have it set to run as soon as the water hits 25 C, which is lower than default settings) and won't rot away as quickly as the pretty ones would have. If you can bear to do this (aesthetically, anyway), it seems like having openings on both sides of your cabinent would be helpful. Though I'm sure how large those openings should be is debateable. __________________ 355 In the Tokyo/Kanto area? Looking for fellow reef enthusiasts to join our reef club! PM for more details. Current Tank Info: 130g reef tank with sump/fuge and skimmer/chiller/algae scrubber/carbon reactor set up

08/29/2006, 09:09 PM	#21
scarter Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 605	you can get some pretty cool looking vents form HD. They sell the large ones that are designed to be used for ac intake. they measure about 2ft by 2ft. If you cant find the color you want you can spray paint them. they make all kinds of cool looking textured spray paints __________________ My name is Shane and I am a reefaholic, I have a disease and they don't know what to call it. Current Tank Info: what tank?

08/29/2006, 09:38 PM	#22
dcombs44 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 2,913	As far as strength of the stand, most of the weight of the tank is supported in the corners. My 55 gallon stand has no back in it, and things are fine. There is a brace in each corner on the back side and that's all the support the is given on the back. I also agree with everyone else, that evaporation is a good thing. Plus the open air allows the water to oxygenate better. Isn't that why people use things like eggcrate instead of glass covers? __________________ Current Setup: 10 Gallon Skimmerless Zoanthid Tank Lighting: Single 175 Watt Metal Halide (14,000 K Hamilton Lamp) Filtration: 10 gallon sump/refugium and Phosban Reactor Return: Mag Drive 700 Controller: ReefKeeper Lite (Basic Version) Circulation: TBD Age of System: Build is in Progress

09/01/2006, 11:10 PM	#23
scarter Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 605	where is the OP? whats going on with the tank? __________________ My name is Shane and I am a reefaholic, I have a disease and they don't know what to call it. Current Tank Info: what tank?