Went from MH to T5 - now have problems - please help

impur · 11/27/2006, 02:03 PM

Ok since my upgrade from my 29gal to 75gal and subsequent light change about 3 weeks ago, i've been having problems. I thought that the troubles ended with just about all my SPS dying. They simply either RTN'd overnight or STN'd over the course of a few days. First acros in the first few days, then all montis died the following week(they looked fine for 7+ days), and lastly my 4 remaining mille frags are just about at the end, they have small spots of flesh left but there i have no hope for them. All my zoos and LPS have done fine as well as a single tenius and single porites small colony a buddy brought over. The other 2 acros he brought died.

Upgrade went from a 10m old 250w 14k MH pendant to the 6-54w TEK T5 fixture, it sits 6" from the water surface of my 75gal tank, my photo period is actinics on at 12:30pm, rest of the lights on at 1:30. Lights off at 7pm actinics off at 7:30pm. It has been this way for about 8 days. Bulbs are 3 D&D super actinic, 2 D&D aquablue+, and 1 GE6500k daylight. The first 5 days after the upgrade or so the light was lower and photo period was all lights on at 12:00 all lights off at 7:00. The T5 bulbs were 6-7m old when i bought the light.

I attribute losing all the SPS to inadequate acclimation to the new light. I did not think they would get too much light being at the bottom of this tank since T5 does not penetrate as well as MH, and the fact that the tank is deeper than the previous.

When i got home sunday after being gone since friday i notice that my favia has some flesh receeding and is still completely retracted as it has been since going under the new light. My echino is showing recession as well, my xmas favia is retracted, and my acan is turning brown. My micro is fine, both my frogspawn took awhile to open completely, but are fine, and my candycane still looks upset but should be fine, and my remaining blasto looks fine. My hitchiking plate coral was white when i got home yesterday.

Zoos are all fine save for my PPE which have not opened in about 10 days. I've added a few new frags which are fine, my RPE are fine, PBPE (pink bubblegum people eater) are fine, and CPE (chameleon people eater) are fine. Not sure why the PPE are the only ones not opening. All other zoos fully open and look wonderful under this light.

So yesterday i ran some tests and added a piece of eggcrate to one side of the tank, the side with the LPS having problems. The recession leads me to believe they are getting to much light. But the browning of my acan leads me to believe not enough light. How can that be when they are 4" apart from each other on the sandbed?

Test results:

SG 35ppt
temp 79.4
pH 8.24
alk 9dKH
calcium 440ppm
nitrates 0ppm
nitrites 0ppm
ammonia 0ppm

I am now getting diatoms on the glass and sand, something i expected since it happened the last 2 upgrades.

I have simply no idea what is going wrong. The only thing that is different is the lighting. What am i doing wrong? Do i need to raise the light, lower it, increase photo period or decrease it? Any help is VERY much appreciated here.

hebdo27 · 11/27/2006, 02:15 PM

Just my opinion but I don't believe T5 are as good a light source as MHs. Obvisouly it looks like your corals are not getting enough light if the SPS are dying but the Zoos are fine. Put back the 250W MH immediately and then add another to properly cover the 75 Gal tank. you can leave the T5's in also if you wish. I have always found you can never have enough light and you can never have enough flow!

Good luck.

sm fragman · 11/27/2006, 03:05 PM

that is so not true ,,the t5 s are plenty of light to sustain your sps,,that has to be somthing wrong some where to have had that many losses,,

jda · 11/27/2006, 03:23 PM

Those SPS wouldn't have died that fast in total darkness. I would look at other causes than the lighting change.

impur · 11/27/2006, 03:40 PM

The only thing i can think of would be the lack of acclimation to the new light and the transfer procedure i used. As i stated, i did not acclimate the SPS to the new light. I filled the 75gal up with NSW and ran the tank empty for a week. I adjusted levels to match the 29gal. The day of the transfer alk, pH, calcium, SG and temp were the same in both tanks. I drained about 30gal of water from the 29gal system and added that to the new 75gal. Then i began transfering corals, all of them onto the sandbed.

What else could it be? All readings are in check. The tank has been completely stable. Flow is more than enough.

Why would all zoos, rics, most LPS, clam, and 2 small SPS colonies do wonderful, while other things are just declining?

I am not going to put the MH back on. The bulb has run its course and i'm sticking with T5 for many reasons.

Squiddy · 11/27/2006, 03:56 PM

Have a look at this tank. There was another really large SPS dominated tank lit by T5s but I can't find a link.

Kurt03 · 11/27/2006, 04:25 PM

people underestimate t5's imo. acclimate them with sheets of window screen if its not to late. also maybe only run half your lights for a while if you have 2 ballasts.

horkn · 11/27/2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurt03
people underestimate t5's imo. acclimate them with sheets of window screen if its not to late. also maybe only run half your lights for a while if you have 2 ballasts.

yep, many do underestimate t5ho.

screening is the only real method that works for acclimating corals to t5ho.. or any light upgrade for that matter. cutting photoperiod doesnt help if you are throwing tons of light onto corals that are not used to that much light.

think of how long it takes you to geta sunburn at the beach?

and what eliminates that issue.. sunscreen....

except i wouldnt use sunscreen in your tank. the fiberglass/plastic type would work better in this app

impur · 11/27/2006, 04:55 PM

Does eggcrate help diffuse the light? I've heard it helps eliminate the sideways light, leaving the direct light?

Also, why would my acan start browning out, while 4" away my echino is receeding. They have the same light hitting them. I would assume the acan needs more light, the echino needs less?

Or why would my A. tenius and porites be doing absolutely wonderful, full PE and noticable growth in the last 3 weeks, while my blue mille 3" away has its flesh just flake off and float away?

RichConley · 11/27/2006, 05:24 PM

I dont think lighting has anything to do with this. He just moved tanks, and honestly, while your Mag, Alk, and Ca look fine, I'm sure theres other levels swinging around.

Zoos are pretty damn hard to kill, so I wouldnt take their health as an indicator of anything.

impur · 11/27/2006, 05:58 PM

Eh, not what i wanted to hear. I can see what you are saying though, i'm sure levels were up and down somewhere.

I'm going to raise my acan up a bit but keep the eggcrate over that side of the tank. I will also add an hour back to my photoperiod so all 6 bulbs are on for 7 hrs and actinics 30min before and 30min after.

The best i suppose i can do is wait it out and keep levels as steady as possible.

moonyguy · 11/27/2006, 06:05 PM

I have been trying to aclimate my softies from PC to T5 and it took 10 days for them to open up even at the bottom of the tank with 4 layers of window screen and egg crate. I dont know what is causing ur problems but I would spend more time to aclimate your corals irrespective of your params. My 2 cents.

SINNERMF · 11/27/2006, 06:12 PM

Could die off a cryptic creatures play a role in this at all?? I've heard of tanks crashing from this event.

pjf · 11/27/2006, 06:48 PM

What is your water flow rate (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2)?

Randall_James · 11/27/2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hebdo27
Just my opinion but I don't believe T5 are as good a light source as MHs. Obvisouly it looks like your corals are not getting enough light if the SPS are dying but the Zoos are fine. Put back the 250W MH immediately and then add another to properly cover the 75 Gal tank. you can leave the T5's in also if you wish. I have always found you can never have enough light and you can never have enough flow!

Good luck.

My experience is exactly opposite of this, the T5's burned up a tank full of stuff on me as I did not acclimate slowly enough... T5's are much more efficient than MH's and I think it is because the light is not near so distorted from the water (shimmer lines) and they coral receives a steady blast of light

impur · 11/27/2006, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SINNERMF
Could die off a cryptic creatures play a role in this at all?? I've heard of tanks crashing from this event.

I only lost 1 snail so i doubt it.

impur · 11/27/2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pjf
What is your water flow rate (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2)?

I have a PCX30 return pump, a Panworld 100PX-X CL pump, 2 Seio 820s and an MJmod pushing roughly 1500gph.

The CL pump is off due to cavitation problems and a jammed OM Super squirt. So in all i have roughtly 3800gph thru the tank which is right around 50X turnover, more when i get the CL fixed.

MGB · 11/27/2006, 07:52 PM

I agree, Randall
I think T5's are very deceptive, they don't visually look that much brighter than VHO or PC's, but when you get corals in there it becomes obvious that lower light things like softies are very easily bleached or shocked. I'd even go as far as saying placement of some SPS's may have to be given careful thought. On a related note I'm noticing that my coraline algea becomes bleached out when it grows right under the light source, anybody else notice this.

Henry Bowman · 11/27/2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

I dont think lighting has anything to do with this. He just moved tanks, and honestly, while your Mag, Alk, and Ca look fine, I'm sure theres other levels swinging around.

Couldn't agree more. There are so many other variables within the situation described. The T5's may be PART of the issue but not THE reason. SPS are so very sensitive to consistent conditions in the tank. I also agree that the corals would not have done as poorly in the dark.

impur · 11/30/2006, 11:29 PM

Well sunday will be 4 weeks since the upgrade. This week i've seen several of my LPS corals decline. I am at my wits end here. My favia, echino, candycane, and acan are all doing poor. My 2 frogspawns, xmas favia, and micro frags are all doing great. What gives?

The good

rics and zoos all doing wonderful

remaining 3 SPS frags and clam doing great, porites has encrusted to the plug

impur · 11/30/2006, 11:31 PM

and the bad

Just moved this to complete shade today

acan started browning out this week. I moved it up about 1/4 the way up the tank, still in lower half though

blury pic but white spots are skeleton

impur · 11/30/2006, 11:34 PM

params

temp 79.0
SG 35ppt
pH 8.25
alk 9dKH
calcium 440ppm
nitrates 0ppm
nitrites 0ppm
ammonia 0ppm

RichConley · 12/01/2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by impur
Eh, not what i wanted to hear. I can see what you are saying though, i'm sure levels were up and down somewhere.

I'm going to raise my acan up a bit but keep the eggcrate over that side of the tank. I will also add an hour back to my photoperiod so all 6 bulbs are on for 7 hrs and actinics 30min before and 30min after.

The best i suppose i can do is wait it out and keep levels as steady as possible.

Thats my advice, just try to keep things steady.

I've never had a tank move go all that well. Theyre not a lot of fun.

As to the guy who said T5s are much more efficient than MH, thats not correct. To be fair, they have almost exactly the same average efficiency. you can find data sheets on google pretty easily. That being said, I think the main issues with T5s is the narrower spectrum of certain bulbs. If you run a couple of the same bulb, you've got a HUGE spike at the wavelength where that bulb is strongest.

Randall_James · 12/01/2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
Thats my advice, just try to keep things steady.

I've never had a tank move go all that well. Theyre not a lot of fun.

As to the guy who said T5s are much more efficient than MH, thats not correct. To be fair, they have almost exactly the same average efficiency. you can find data sheets on google pretty easily. That being said, I think the main issues with T5s is the narrower spectrum of certain bulbs. If you run a couple of the same bulb, you've got a HUGE spike at the wavelength where that bulb is strongest.

I do not think you have ever done a MH to T5 conversion. It is almost a requirement to shade all the corals initially and very often some will never take full light. Please research this a bit before you go jumping off the deep end. This is very well documented and there are in fact other threads here on RC that show the numbers of users that have gone through this exact scenario.

T5s are in fact more efficient that MH, take 500W of MH and replace it with 500W of T5? not going to happen... You mistake efficiency with output

I doubt the tank move had a lot to do with the losses myself

reeferman75 · 12/01/2006, 11:16 AM

For some people saying T5s are not enough light for SPS they are wrong, I am running T5's over my 240 and I am getting a par reading of 203 24" down on my sand bed. I think you should have started your corals off at the bottom and worked there way back up to the top so that the corals get used to new light.

11/27/2006, 02:03 PM	#1
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Went from MH to T5 - now have problems - please help Ok since my upgrade from my 29gal to 75gal and subsequent light change about 3 weeks ago, i've been having problems. I thought that the troubles ended with just about all my SPS dying. They simply either RTN'd overnight or STN'd over the course of a few days. First acros in the first few days, then all montis died the following week(they looked fine for 7+ days), and lastly my 4 remaining mille frags are just about at the end, they have small spots of flesh left but there i have no hope for them. All my zoos and LPS have done fine as well as a single tenius and single porites small colony a buddy brought over. The other 2 acros he brought died. Upgrade went from a 10m old 250w 14k MH pendant to the 6-54w TEK T5 fixture, it sits 6" from the water surface of my 75gal tank, my photo period is actinics on at 12:30pm, rest of the lights on at 1:30. Lights off at 7pm actinics off at 7:30pm. It has been this way for about 8 days. Bulbs are 3 D&D super actinic, 2 D&D aquablue+, and 1 GE6500k daylight. The first 5 days after the upgrade or so the light was lower and photo period was all lights on at 12:00 all lights off at 7:00. The T5 bulbs were 6-7m old when i bought the light. I attribute losing all the SPS to inadequate acclimation to the new light. I did not think they would get too much light being at the bottom of this tank since T5 does not penetrate as well as MH, and the fact that the tank is deeper than the previous. When i got home sunday after being gone since friday i notice that my favia has some flesh receeding and is still completely retracted as it has been since going under the new light. My echino is showing recession as well, my xmas favia is retracted, and my acan is turning brown. My micro is fine, both my frogspawn took awhile to open completely, but are fine, and my candycane still looks upset but should be fine, and my remaining blasto looks fine. My hitchiking plate coral was white when i got home yesterday. Zoos are all fine save for my PPE which have not opened in about 10 days. I've added a few new frags which are fine, my RPE are fine, PBPE (pink bubblegum people eater) are fine, and CPE (chameleon people eater) are fine. Not sure why the PPE are the only ones not opening. All other zoos fully open and look wonderful under this light. So yesterday i ran some tests and added a piece of eggcrate to one side of the tank, the side with the LPS having problems. The recession leads me to believe they are getting to much light. But the browning of my acan leads me to believe not enough light. How can that be when they are 4" apart from each other on the sandbed? Test results: SG 35ppt temp 79.4 pH 8.24 alk 9dKH calcium 440ppm nitrates 0ppm nitrites 0ppm ammonia 0ppm I am now getting diatoms on the glass and sand, something i expected since it happened the last 2 upgrades. I have simply no idea what is going wrong. The only thing that is different is the lighting. What am i doing wrong? Do i need to raise the light, lower it, increase photo period or decrease it? Any help is VERY much appreciated here. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

11/27/2006, 02:15 PM	#2
hebdo27 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 94	Just my opinion but I don't believe T5 are as good a light source as MHs. Obvisouly it looks like your corals are not getting enough light if the SPS are dying but the Zoos are fine. Put back the 250W MH immediately and then add another to properly cover the 75 Gal tank. you can leave the T5's in also if you wish. I have always found you can never have enough light and you can never have enough flow! Good luck. __________________ Hebdo27 Current Tank Info: 90G Mixed Reef

11/27/2006, 03:40 PM	#5
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	The only thing i can think of would be the lack of acclimation to the new light and the transfer procedure i used. As i stated, i did not acclimate the SPS to the new light. I filled the 75gal up with NSW and ran the tank empty for a week. I adjusted levels to match the 29gal. The day of the transfer alk, pH, calcium, SG and temp were the same in both tanks. I drained about 30gal of water from the 29gal system and added that to the new 75gal. Then i began transfering corals, all of them onto the sandbed. What else could it be? All readings are in check. The tank has been completely stable. Flow is more than enough. Why would all zoos, rics, most LPS, clam, and 2 small SPS colonies do wonderful, while other things are just declining? I am not going to put the MH back on. The bulb has run its course and i'm sticking with T5 for many reasons. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

11/27/2006, 04:55 PM	#9
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Does eggcrate help diffuse the light? I've heard it helps eliminate the sideways light, leaving the direct light? Also, why would my acan start browning out, while 4" away my echino is receeding. They have the same light hitting them. I would assume the acan needs more light, the echino needs less? Or why would my A. tenius and porites be doing absolutely wonderful, full PE and noticable growth in the last 3 weeks, while my blue mille 3" away has its flesh just flake off and float away? __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

11/27/2006, 05:24 PM	#10
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	I dont think lighting has anything to do with this. He just moved tanks, and honestly, while your Mag, Alk, and Ca look fine, I'm sure theres other levels swinging around. Zoos are pretty damn hard to kill, so I wouldnt take their health as an indicator of anything. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

11/27/2006, 03:05 PM	#3
sm fragman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: ithaca ny Posts: 618	that is so not true ,,the t5 s are plenty of light to sustain your sps,,that has to be somthing wrong some where to have had that many losses,,

11/27/2006, 03:23 PM	#4
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Those SPS wouldn't have died that fast in total darkness. I would look at other causes than the lighting change.

11/27/2006, 03:56 PM	#6
Squiddy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fort St John, BC, Canada Posts: 66	Have a look at this tank. There was another really large SPS dominated tank lit by T5s but I can't find a link.

11/27/2006, 04:25 PM	#7
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	people underestimate t5's imo. acclimate them with sheets of window screen if its not to late. also maybe only run half your lights for a while if you have 2 ballasts.

11/27/2006, 05:58 PM	#11
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Eh, not what i wanted to hear. I can see what you are saying though, i'm sure levels were up and down somewhere. I'm going to raise my acan up a bit but keep the eggcrate over that side of the tank. I will also add an hour back to my photoperiod so all 6 bulbs are on for 7 hrs and actinics 30min before and 30min after. The best i suppose i can do is wait it out and keep levels as steady as possible. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

11/27/2006, 06:05 PM	#12
moonyguy Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 577	I have been trying to aclimate my softies from PC to T5 and it took 10 days for them to open up even at the bottom of the tank with 4 layers of window screen and egg crate. I dont know what is causing ur problems but I would spend more time to aclimate your corals irrespective of your params. My 2 cents.

11/27/2006, 06:12 PM	#13
SINNERMF Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana Posts: 415	Could die off a cryptic creatures play a role in this at all?? I've heard of tanks crashing from this event.

11/27/2006, 06:48 PM	#14
pjf Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,954	What is your water flow rate (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2)?

11/27/2006, 07:52 PM	#18
MGB Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 270	I agree, Randall I think T5's are very deceptive, they don't visually look that much brighter than VHO or PC's, but when you get corals in there it becomes obvious that lower light things like softies are very easily bleached or shocked. I'd even go as far as saying placement of some SPS's may have to be given careful thought. On a related note I'm noticing that my coraline algea becomes bleached out when it grows right under the light source, anybody else notice this.

11/30/2006, 11:29 PM	#20
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Well sunday will be 4 weeks since the upgrade. This week i've seen several of my LPS corals decline. I am at my wits end here. My favia, echino, candycane, and acan are all doing poor. My 2 frogspawns, xmas favia, and micro frags are all doing great. What gives? The good rics and zoos all doing wonderful remaining 3 SPS frags and clam doing great, porites has encrusted to the plug __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

11/30/2006, 11:31 PM	#21
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	and the bad Just moved this to complete shade today acan started browning out this week. I moved it up about 1/4 the way up the tank, still in lower half though blury pic but white spots are skeleton __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

11/30/2006, 11:34 PM	#22
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	params temp 79.0 SG 35ppt pH 8.25 alk 9dKH calcium 440ppm nitrates 0ppm nitrites 0ppm ammonia 0ppm __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

12/01/2006, 11:16 AM	#25
reeferman75 Moved On Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Atlanta , Ga Posts: 296	For some people saying T5s are not enough light for SPS they are wrong, I am running T5's over my 240 and I am getting a par reading of 203 24" down on my sand bed. I think you should have started your corals off at the bottom and worked there way back up to the top so that the corals get used to new light.